Life-saving Equipment Is Counter Productive - Official!

[Vaughan]

Last night I read with amazement, the EDP report on the drowning of two young people last year in what seems now to be called St Andrew's "Broad". In my day it was the Whitlingham Marshes.

Here are some quotes from the EDP article. Make of them what you will -

Kevin Hart, head of nature reserves at NWT said that after the no bathing notices were stolen (stolen?) they erected warnings of blue-green algae, from stock, to try and put people off swimming.

Only one life ring was available as their guidance was not about safety ; it was about stopping people going in the water.

Placing of life saving equipment can in some cases make it seem swimming is allowed.

Life saving equipment may encourage people into the water by "giving them the wrong message".

And  last, the real goodie - "The presence of life saving equipment can be counter productive".

What astounds me most is that this silly, desk-bound official actually got away with this arrant nonsense at a Coroner's Inquest!

What we are talking about is not a "broad" : it is left over workings from deep open cast mining of gravel and should have been filled in properly when finished. They say this is more than 12 feet deep, all over. That is deeper than the Yare beside it, nowadays! This is not a broad, it is an un- protected death trap and yet a wildlife trust, in the BA's area of responsibility, purports to open it to public access in a state which renders it dangerous.

I presume this "land-mark" verdict now means there is no longer need for life-rings along the Riverside Rd, on the banks of the Wensum, in case the brain-dead staggering out of night clubs in the small hours, might get "the wrong message".    

Our lives are in the hands of dangerous fools.

 

[BroadScot]

My quote from another thread !  

Quote

from what I have read here, there, and his do as I say, paper,(I use the word paper very loosly !) the EDP !

Nuff said.

[Baitrunner]

OK I haven't read the EDP article, but have some of those quotes been taken out of context? In any case I can clearly see the point they are trying to make.

As a kid I lived a short walk from loads of massive and deep ex gravel pits. Some were fishing lakes, others fenced off. There may have been an odd "deep water" "Keep out" sign. As a 12 yr old I knew it was dangerous, but it didn't stop us climbing the fence and doing what boys did back then in the 70's. Was there a life ring? Like heck, nearest one was probably 30 miles away on Southend sea front. Did anyone drown? May have, but it was no ones fault other than their own.

Why fill in an ex gravel working when it can be used for other leisure purposes? They already use part of said "Broad" for sailing etc and if care is taken it's safe for all. I have used loads of old gravel workings for leisure purposes - fishing, sailing, windsurfing, skiing and if they had been filled in, I would never have experienced these things. Sure they all have signs and life rings now (those that ARE allowed to be used), but it's still no guarantee of safety if you dont treat it with respect.

It gets my goat when it is always someone else's fault when someone does something stupid or makes the wrong call when they get into trouble. It is a terrible tragedy what happened to those people, but why are the parents not mainly to blame for not teaching them the dangers of deep water? I believe they were also old enough to "know better" - heck I did as a kid and I had no special upbringing or safety curriculum I attended?   It's called having a bit of common!!

So sorry Vaughan, our lives are in our own hands and those of our children in ours until such time as they become old enough to make their own decisions. I doubt a fleet of sings and a chain of life rings would have made them stop and think twice and probably not have saved them in this instance.

[Wussername]

Why do people drown in gravel pits? These wind swept, sometimes desolate waters, deep, cold foreboding waters.
Broads, sometimes in picturesque surroundings, seem to offer for some a feeling of security, relatively shallow waters, warm in comparison with a seemingly bottomless gravel pit. Broads are not very accessible, unless by boat. That in itself provides a safe haven, a fender to cling on, people in close proximity to offer assistance in the event of difficulty.
Even so, it is not advised to swim in them. There are inherent dangers, weeds, deep mud, slippery banks, submerged hazards.........tidal movement.
Those young people who frequent the gravel pits, and their parents, have little understandingof the dangers. They are good city folk, or country folk, but not necessarily versed in the dangers of water.
They believe that they can swim, the parents are confident that they can swim. However, cold and more importantly fatigue, with cramp, inhalation of water and a natural panic creates a perfect scenario for tragedy.
This I believe is a contributory factor to these dreadful incidents.
One should not confuse a flooded industrial site with a broad and should never be confused as such.

Old Wussername 

Andrew

[Vaughan]

Baitrunner, I suggest there is a difference between a an old, private and fenced off gravel pit that you effectively trespassed on as a child (haven't we all), and what is now referred to as a Broad, onto which the public are invited to have access, to appreciate the "natural" beauty of a place now run by a wildlife trust under the benevolent wing of the Broads Authority. They are responsible to ensure public safety, in a public place.

Perhaps you are also confusing the wonderful "Whitlingham Great Broad" to the south of the river, with the old Whitlingham marsh on the north side, between the Commissioners' Cut and Bungalow Lane, accessible by the old railway bridge. I am not saying it should not have been left as an open space, or "broad" if they wish, even though it is not connected to a river and therefore of no use to the navigation.

It should, however, have been partially filled in first, within the costing of the mining operation, to make it safe for future purposes.

Does a "broad" have to be over 12 feet deep, all over? If so the BA had better get on with dredging Hickling!

[Baitrunner]

Vaughan you are correct I wasnt aware of the "broad" on the other side. 

however, I know lots of publicly accessed areas around old gravel workings where life rings are as common as rocking horse poo!

andrew makes the classic points about water temperature etc and it only takes one mouthful for panic to set in and if you can't stand up its not a good situation. Seen it many a time whilst diving. 

I understand the points being made and I guess they are our opinions, but if your old enough to be allowed out on your own, you should have enough common sense. At the end of the day we hear of plenty of adults getting caught out in these situations. Simple, don't do it. If this pond had been filled in would they have just used another one with similar results? 

Even with people around you have to hope they see you, react, get you out and can resuscitate you. 

I don't have a sign on my oven saying hot don't touch. So I dont touch it when its on! 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

They believe that they can swim, the parents are confident that they can swim. However, cold and more importantly fatigue, with cramp, inhalation of water and a natural panic creates a perfect scenario for tragedy.

There speaks a man who knows.

Wussername and I, among other locals, have fished a lot of people out of the river in Thorpe in the old days, because we were lucky enough just to be there, when help was needed. Others were not so lucky. Hypothermia can take effect in 3 minutes, even on Wroxham Broad in high summer. I know - I have seen it, when driving the rescue boat.

If this trust manager, with all his education, thinks that life saving equipment is counter productive, he is a dangerous idiot.

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

If this trust manager, with all his education, thinks that life saving equipment is counter productive, he is a dangerous idiot.

Agree, total idiot. However I agree with Mark in everything he has said here. I really nobject to this 'nanny state' intervension. When common sense goes out of the window, we are leftg with lunacy.  See pic below for example. This is a sign in a pub local to me.

[Vaughan]

It is now evening, and time to reminisce. Perhaps this should be on the night owls nook thread?

Baitrunner has reminded me that I only went out on Whitlingham Marsh as a boy, under supervision, during afternoon outings from my prep school, in Thorpe. It was a lovely place, teeming with wild life, and some old wartime "pill boxes" which could be explored. On the way back we could linger on the railway footbridge until we got smothered in soot and steam as the East Anglian Express roared through on its way to Yarmouth, hauled by a huge "Britannia" engine.

Later on, aged about 14, I was still there, but still under parental supervision! On the other side of the river was the Crown Point Estate, and when they were holding a syndicate shoot on the meadows, you would see my father, Miles Simpson (of Stalham Yacht Station), Gilly Tallowin (of the New Inn at Horning) and Ray Bondon, spread out in a long line across the marsh, "bagging" all the pheasants that the Barclays Bank syndicate had missed, as they flew overhead across the river. I stood beside my father as his loader, handing him one of a pair of pre-war Henry Atkin Purdeys every few seconds.

All totally legal, ta very much, as my father had leased the shooting rights on the marsh. I am sure Griff will agree that our British countryside as we know it, only looks like it does today because of country pursuits, such as game shooting, and hunting. That is the reason that we still have hedgerows, spinneys, and copses. If not, it would all look like American prairie farming. I say this, because you may not know that the nice "Capability Brown" type tree covered island in the middle of the so-called Whitlingham Broad is actually a purpose-built spinney, for the rearing of pheasants, which can be seen on OS maps of the early 1800s and may be a lot older.

Perhaps they knew a lot more about the management of the environment, in the old days, than we do now?

That is not to mention the naked lady of Whitlingham marshes, who is said to have regularly escaped from the Thorpe hospital, and run off across the marsh in the night, chased by several attendants in white coats. May be Wussername has heard of this?

[Timbo]

Australian comedian Steve Hughes has a lot to say...mostly hilarious, all of it common sense...on this subject.

Wussername's post reminded me of the safety add that used to come on TV when I was a kid. Went something like 'I am the spirit of dark water' with some apparition in a monk's cowl and some kid drowning. It frightened the bejesus out of me as a kid and still sends a shiver down my spine when I think of it now.

[BroadScot]

Quote

That is not to mention the naked lady of Whitlingham marshes, who is said to have regularly escaped from the Thorpe hospital, and run off across the marsh in the night, chased by several attendants in white coats. May be Wussername has heard of this?

Errrr I thought Gracie came from further south ?      ------------><------Yup i'm hiding !

[Wussername]

24 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

British countryside as we know it, only looks like it does today because of country pursuits, such as game shooting, and hunting. That is the reason that we still have hedgerows, spinneys, and copses. If not, it would all look like American prairie farming. I say this, because you may not know that the nice "Capability Brown" type tree covered island in the middle of the so-called Whitlingham Broad is actually a purpose-built spinney, for the rearing of pheasants, which can be seen on OS maps of the early 1800s and may be a lot older.

Perhaps they knew a lot more about the management of the environment, in the old days, than we do now?

 

I agree that shooting and hunting has played an enormous part in maintaining the countryside as we know it. In the same manner as sailing and boating in general has contributed much to highlight those area's which have been allowed to deteriorate, and in some instances lost.

MM. I concede that a Nanny State needs to be carefully controlled however a Nanny Norfolk is needed to protect that which has been retained.

As for chasing naked women on Whitlingham marsh I have still got my white coat, alas my old galoshes slowed me down.

[Vaughan]

10 minutes ago, Wussername said:

As for chasing naked women on Whitlingham marsh I have still got my white coat, alas my old galoshes slowed me down.

This story was told to me by Cyril Fiske, who owned and lived on the ex Gorleston lifeboat "Friend Of All Nations". We must remember that the Thorpe mental hospital is an imosing Victorian castle, surrounded by high walls, which looks straight out onto the marshes - a desolate and uninhabited place, especially at night.

The story comes from a fisherman, moored in an old boat that he also lived on, and doing some night fishing. All of a sudden comes a commotion from the hospital and lights start coming on. Next thing he sees is a young woman, "naked as the day" running along the river bank towards Bungalow Lane. A few hundred yards behind come three attendants in white coats, running to catch her up. 

A little while later comes another attendant, in white coat, carrying two red fire buckets full of sand. The fisherman manages to catch up with him, and asks what is going on? Once the attendant had caught his breath, he says "It's that woman again : Every full moon, she goes mad, tears off all her clothes, breaks out through a door in the back walls and runs off across the marshes. And we have to go out and catch her"

The fisherman says "Well what's the sand for?"

"That's me handicap mate - I caught her last month!"

[Gracie]

I actually applied for a job in a Mental Asylum the other day. They told me I would have to spend some time with a crazy person.

Want to hang out tomorrow, Iain? I've got some crayons

.................

Sorry for going off this excellent topic but I just had to respond to the Pesky one's post

Grace

[rightsaidfred]

I have to agree with Baitrunner on this, around the outskirts of London we have many old gravel workings open to the public, some I used to fish back in the 50s and and still open for fishing now, others open for birdwatching and sailing some for all 3 plus deep reservoirs open for the same , most are substantial in size and depth, some controlled by the Lea Valley Regional Park, one in particular is called 80acres for a good reason it has one life ring in the car park, do we close all these waters or the broads for that matter, as sad and unfortunate as it is people have accidents and get hurt or die, sometimes through pure misfortune, sometimes through ignorance and sometimes through ignoring the obvious dangers involved, you cannot legislate for peoples stupidity sometimes they have to carry the consequences of their own actions sad as they may be.

Fred

[Vaughan]

Fred, I still think there is a big distinction. This is not being presented, or recognised, as a gravel pit. It is called a broad and the gravel workings were done by the back door, conveniently disguised by the BA, the NCC and the landowner as a green project to create a nature reserve, which is what they had destroyed in the first place by exploiting the gravel.

The Broads are for boating and people in all boats, from canoes to Broads Tours steamers, have access to safety equipment, including life jackets. This is not the same as inviting the walking public to ramble around on what they are told is a broad, but is actually a totally un-supervised flooded mine working, with no signs, no nothing. Does the BA run their marvellous "Whitlingham Great Broad" in this fashion? I bet they have staff on duty, and considerable safety equipment available. They wouldn't dare do otherwise.

So how does the NWT think they can open a similar place to the pubic and yet do nothing? Even saying in coroner's court that their guidance is "not about safety"?

In my view this is disgracefully casual.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Vaghan,

Personally I share your view, from the report of the coroners statement, I think the management of this body of water got away lightly by saying signs were removed. 

If this body of water is still open to the public then the management must take suitable measures to protect the public.

Regards

Alan

 

[Vaughan]

Isn't it amazing what pops up out of cyberspace?

I don't know what newspaper this comes from, and I certainly didn't write it myself. All I can tell you is that I came upon it quite by chance, a year or two ago. 

 

[Wussername]

An interesting article. In many ways. It has parallels with the present day. Thank you for posting.

Andrew.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Wussername

[Vaughan]

My boyhood memories of the Whitlingham marshes, and that article above, have reminded me of a song by John Prine, called "Paradise", later performed by John Denver, the Everly Brothers, and Johnny Cash. Anyone remember it? 

"Sometimes we'd travel right down the Green River, to the abandoned old prison down by green hills, where the air smelled like steaks and we'd shoot with our pistols, but empty pop-bottles was all that we'd kill.

Daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenburg County, down by the Green River, where Paradise lay? I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking - Mr Peabody's coal train has hauled it away."

[HemsbyPie]

Can see both sides of this. Water safety equipment suggests that swimming is allowed so should Never have been out there in the first place. But then if it was my family swimming there against the rules I would want safety equipment...

of the 300-odd people who died in the water last year, over half never intended ever getting wet.