A Woman Was Stopped By A Car With Blue Flashing Light

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Pally, 

Welcome back to the forum, you have been missed.

Regards

Alan

[Matt]

But what constitutes a uniform?

 

[quo vadis]

Handcuffs and Truncheon

[grendel]

I was once riding my motorbike, when a police car pulled in behind me - after 2 miles he flashed his blue lights and tooted the siren, then when I stopped he asked me why I had not pulled over sooner as he had been indicating with hand movements for me to do so.

I did point out that motorcycle wing mirrors had allowed me to see the car behind was a police car, but in no respect would I have been able to discern hand signals in a vibrating mirror (the bike in question being a small kawasaki with handlebar mounted mirrors on long stalks, and anyone who has ridden a bike of this age knows the mirrors vibrate with the engine revs)

[MauriceMynah]

Pally, isn't there a difference between telling someone what the law is and someone quoting the law?

I could say that Drink driving is an offence, but that isn't quoting the law, merely using 'common usage'.

[Labrador]

Not quite sure why this is actually in ' Norfolk Broads news' as it took place in East Harling, more Brecks than Broads.

[JennyMorgan]

22 minutes ago, quo vadis said:

Handcuffs and Truncheon

I just knew Gracie would like that one!!!

[stumpy]

Re:"Parting like the Red Sea", I once had a most entertaining trip back to Suffolk from a training course just outside Swindon with a colleague, both in shirt-sleeve order (white shirt,black tie and epaulettes) driving a hired white big Rover. We hit the M4 and folk started moving over and dropping down to 70. When the penny dropped we wondered what would happen if we put the dipped headlights on - it worked!! Naughty but oh so nice!

[JennyMorgan]

In the past I drove a Coast Guard Land-Rover rescue tender, complete with blue light. It was made abundantly clear to me that the blue light's role was entirely advisory, it gave me no powers whatsoever. I understand that it is the same for a police car, or a BA launch for that matter. 

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, Paladin said:

The law, as I have quoted it, is entirely unambiguous. The legal requirement to stop relates to the officer, not to the vehicle or whatever lights it may be displaying.

So how does this officer, in his uniform, apprehend a moving vehicle following the commission of a traffic offence? By running after it in his big boots, or by the use of a suitably equipped police vehicle?

I think Wildfuzz has given excellent and clear advice on the subject of this thread, which is specific to the fears expressed by members, especially the ladies.

As an ex police officer (of the North Walsham Division) I consider his advice to be totally correct in practice, and very helpful. By the way, it was me who put the question!

2 hours ago, Paladin said:

I generally ignore the poor information and advice that pops up on this forum, but, in this case, someone could be put in severe danger.

Having made my point. I will now return to my silent, head-shaking mode.

Hmm. . . 

[Paladin]

5 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Pally, isn't there a difference between telling someone what the law is and someone quoting the law?

I could say that Drink driving is an offence, but that isn't quoting the law, merely using 'common usage'.

MM, you can say that drink/driving is an offence, but you can then substantiate that statement, if necessary, by quoting sections 4 and 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, which create the various drink/drive offences.

A police spokesman has been quoted as saying “The law states motorists have to stop for a police vehicle displaying blue lights…” I know of no legislation which has that effect and have asked the police representative on here, who has repeated that advice, to substantiate it.

Police vehicles (liveried or otherwise) are driven by other than police officers, and should one of those drivers attempt to exceed their powers and try to stop a motorist by switching on the blue lights, NO offence would be committed if the motorist ignored the blue light. The only offence is failing to stop when requested by a police officer in uniform. The blue lights are merely to attract attention and have no other legal significance.

MM, you know something of my background and, although I have been retired for a number of years, I believe I can claim to have more expertise and knowledge of this particular subject that any of the other contributors. I am always happy to learn, though, and would be pleased to be corrected in this case (by reference to Act and Section).

FWIW, Essex Police have issued rather different advice, after incidents in that county last year http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-36902057

Re. what is uniform, in Wallwork v Giles 1970, it was held that an officer is in uniform if he is easily identified as a police officer, even if he is not wearing his helmet (or cap). In Cooper v Rowlands 1971 it was held that a court will presume that an officer was in uniform, unless challenged by the defendant.

 

[Timbo]

4 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

or a BA launch for that matter. 

Uncle Albert was once piloting RT to Stalham while I took the opportunity to take a shower. While I showered I noticed that RT got slower and slower, and slower...branches rubbed against the new paintwork and then RT stopped.
"What the hell are you doing?" I politely enquired of the old boy.
"There's a copper with a big beard and blue flashing lights on his launch chasing us and I'm pulling over!" declared Uncle Albert.
Turns out there was a quite well known small bit of tupperware approaching us from the stern. Affixed to the cabin top were two blue plastic seaside buckets and in the cockpit all you could see was a dirty great lurcher.

[Vaughan]

19 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Police vehicles (liveried or otherwise) are driven by other than police officers,

I beg your pardon?

I offer due reverence to your perceived seniority on this forum but you are right off the point.

The question on this thread is what to do if you are approached, as a lady in a car, by someone who claims to be a police officer.

The answer, as given clearly by Wildfuzz, is that if he ain't in uniform he ain't got no right to stop you.

If you seriously think that the lady in question is supposed to defend herself by spouting subsection 4 para B part 2 of the Road traffic act 1937 (revised) out of the window of her car when confronted with this situation, then no wonder so many such cases tragically find themselves in front of the Crown Prosecution service.

[JennyMorgan]

55 minutes ago, Timbo said:

Uncle Albert was once piloting RT to Stalham while I took the opportunity to take a shower. While I showered I noticed that RT got slower and slower, and slower...branches rubbed against the new paintwork and then RT stopped.
"What the hell are you doing?" I politely enquired of the old boy.
"There's a copper with a big beard and blue flashing lights on his launch chasing us and I'm pulling over!" declared Uncle Albert.
Turns out there was a quite well known small bit of tupperware approaching us from the stern. Affixed to the cabin top were two blue plastic seaside buckets and in the cockpit all you could see was a dirty great lurcher.

Aww, be fair, non of 'em look like 'dirty great lurchers'!

[JennyMorgan]

Indeed men with blue lights can be exceedingly useful!

[Wildfuzz]

I have referred this thread to our legal services department for clarification as I believe that if the law is quoted, albeit abbreviated we should be correct in the wording and the interpretation of the advice we are offering. I await a reply.

 

S.

[Matt]

May I refer you all to Question 587 from the "Ask the police" website.

 

http://m.askthe.police.uk/content/Q587.htm?viewsinglecontentelementid=34448

[Paladin]

10 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I beg your pardon?

I offer due reverence to your perceived seniority on this forum but you are right off the point.

The question on this thread is what to do if you are approached, as a lady in a car, by someone who claims to be a police officer.

The answer, as given clearly by Wildfuzz, is that if he ain't in uniform he ain't got no right to stop you.

If you seriously think that the lady in question is supposed to defend herself by spouting subsection 4 para B part 2 of the Road traffic act 1937 (revised) out of the window of her car when confronted with this situation, then no wonder so many such cases tragically find themselves in front of the Crown Prosecution service.

I do not regard myself as having any seniority, perceived or otherwise, on this forum. I do, however, have considerable professional knowledge and expertise in the field under discussion.

I believe it is you who is off the point. While I have acknowledged, and substantiated by reference to the specific legislation, the power of a police officer in uniform to stop a motorist, the point at issue, as far as my input is concerned, is whether there is any legislation that requires a motorist to stop for a blue light. I don't know of any, but this is the purport of the advice given by the police spokesman.

 

 

1 hour ago, Wildfuzz said:

I have referred this thread to our legal services department for clarification as I believe that if the law is quoted, albeit abbreviated we should be correct in the wording and the interpretation of the advice we are offering. I await a reply.

 

S.

Thank you, Wildfuzz. You've saved me a job.

[ranworthbreeze]

10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Aww, be fair, non of 'em look like 'dirty great lurchers'!

Is it me or does one of the crew have a resemblance of Andrew Jeckell 

Regards

Alan

[JennyMorgan]

The one on the right?

[ranworthbreeze]

40 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

The one on the right?

[Wildfuzz]

Paul BASSHAM or Amy BARREL?, don't think Amy will be impressed and as she is a firearms officer to, best not tell her

[Vaughan]

Well, Paladin, we seem to have got off on the wrong foot yesterday. It was not what you said, but the way you put it, that upset me. You now probably feel the same about me in which case I apologise, in the spirit of the good atmosphere of this forum.

I felt it was unfair that Wildfuzz should be personally attacked in this way, for having the decency to pass on to us the official advice of his own Constabulary. This may not have contained "the letter of the act" to your satisfaction but its message was nonetheless clear and unequivocal, and this was my "point".

Any lady member of the forum may now rest assured that if she is stopped in her car by a man in civilian clothes, even if he has just stepped out of what appears to be a police car, then that person has no legal right to stop her. Furthermore, she can assume that this person is masquerading as a police officer since a real one would clearly know the law and would not want to risk, himself, ending up in court. 

This is what wearing "The Queen's Uniform" is all about.

The legality of a blue light is a different matter IMHO, but someone of your experience will know where to find the answer to that.

Meantime I am shocked by what this man did the other day and I very much hope he will be brought to justice as soon as possible.

[TheQ]

back to the original post ... someone arrested.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/man_arrested_for_impersonating_a_police_officer_with_blue_lights_on_car_in_three_holes_1_4875135

[smellyloo]

We employ the legal profession to argue the letter of the law. I find it impossible to read the legal wordings of the law without shutters descending over my eyes rendering interpretation of the words almost impossible.

With regard to the original topic it is essential that any advice given is useful, meaningful & understandable for common people, like me, who just require an easily digestable answer to .... what should I do?

Wildfuzz answered in a manner that I found both useful and informative, that does not mean I don't welcome Paladines carefully considered research on the letter of the law it's just that most of the points raised sailed somewhat over my head.