A Woman Was Stopped By A Car With Blue Flashing Light

[Paladin]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I felt it was unfair that Wildfuzz should be personally attacked in this way, for having the decency to pass on to us the official advice of his own Constabulary.

Vaughan, you seem to be intent on causing discord where there is none. It has never been my posting style to make personal attacks on forum members, and I haven't in this case. The only mention I have made of Wildfuzz (other than to thank him for taking this up with his legal services department) is in my comment that, "Wildfuzz has simply repeated what  a 'police spokesman' has told the Press..." That is a factual statement, not a criticism, far less an attack.

Such criticisms that I have made have been in relation to the statement "The law states motorists have to stop for a police vehicle displaying blue lights..." and the unnamed police spokesman who made it.

 

[Vaughan]

On 2/2/2017 at 4:43 PM, Paladin said:

I generally ignore the poor information and advice that pops up on this forum, but, in this case, someone could be put in severe danger.

Having made my point. I will now return to my silent, head-shaking mode.

Perhaps this may help to explain. If you had not taken this un-necessary "stance" I would no doubt have viewed the rest of what you had to say in a different light. I still think the "blue light" part is not relevant to the main point but that, as you say, is your opinion.

I have had the grace to offer you an apology, especially in view of the rather changed atmosphere of conviviality that has come to this forum since you last posted on it. As you seem to prefer not to accept my apology that speaks volumes, for me.

 

[JennyMorgan]

'I generally ignore the poor information and advice that pops up on this forum', yes, that got up my nose too, especially as I find the information and friendly atmosphere on this forum to be generally excellent. I really don't think that criticising and comparing forums, even if only by inference, is at all helpful, however the comment is delivered. Both Vaughan & myself are in danger of ruffling a few feathers on this topic but nevertheless I think that Vaughan's point is well made and needs to be supported. Very often in life it is not what one say but how ones says it. I have no wish to antagonise anyone and I hope my criticism will be taken in a constructive manner. 

[Wussername]

'I generally ignore the poor information and advice that pops up on this forum'

 

A comment made with intent.

[rightsaidfred]

To put some meat on the bones of this subject, a year or so ago there was a spate of car/van hijackings on the M11 by bogus unmarked police cars, the Official advice at that time was not to stop for unmarked cars displaying Blue Lights, there was another occurrence in Essex a couple of weeks ago.

Fred

[rightsaidfred]

Given that these days different Police Forces have a tendency to put their own interpretation on things and offer differing advice I think Paladins comments are fully justified in the interests of us all.

Fred

[Jbx5]

'I generally ignore the poor information and advice that pops up on this forum'

It must be quite on the other side so try and ruffle a few feathers on here.

dont take the bait.

 

Regards John

[Gracie]

I'm not in the same league at knowing the history of the Broads like some of you but I have gained so much since joining this forum, the advice and information I have asked for has always been spot on

I may have my blonde moments from time to time but I do know there are some very knowledgable Norfolk folk on here, I would just like to say thank you for the superb information and advice I have received in the three years I have been a member

Keep up the good work guys

Grace

[rightsaidfred]

www.echo-news.co.uk/.../14643195.Ignore_unmarked_cars_if_they_try_to_pull_you_over...

 

[ranworthbreeze]

Here is the link.

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/14643195.Ignore_unmarked_cars_if_they_try_to_pull_you_over__Police_issue_warning_after_vehicle_thefts_by__quot_fake_cops_quot__in_Essex/

Regards

Alan

[Wildfuzz]

Ok maybe not a definitive answer but the legal eagles sent me the below,

 

The law around this matter is one of construction.

 

• The Highway Code says - Situations needing extra care - 31. Emergency vehicles. If an ambulance, fire engine, police or other emergency vehicle

  approaches using flashing blue lights, headlights and/or sirens, keep off the road.  - Rule 219  -- Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or traffic officer and incident support vehicles using flashing amber lights. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but try to avoid stopping before the brow of a hill, a bend or narrow section of road. Do not endanger yourself, other road users or pedestrians and avoid mounting the kerb. Do not brake harshly on approach to a junction or roundabout, as a following vehicle may not have the same view as you.

 

• CPS - Prosecutors should also consider whether a driver has failed to observe a provision of the Highway Code.  This does not itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings, but a failure, particularly a serious one, may constitute evidence of careless [inconsiderate]or even dangerous driving.

 

• Section 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 allows a constable in uniform or a traffic officer to stop a mechanically propelled vehicle being driven, or a cycle being ridden, on a road. 163(1) A person driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road must stop the vehicle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer.

 

163(2) A person riding a cycle on a road must stop the cycle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer.

 

163(3) If a person fails to comply with this section he is guilty of an offence.

 

• Halsbury’s Annotations - “must stop” This section empowers a police officer acting reasonably and in the course of his or her duties, to stop a vehicle, not to detain it; however, the driver is under a duty to keep the vehicle at a standstill whilst the officer has a reasonable opportunity to exercise his or her powers.   Where a driver believes a police officer is acting unreasonably, he or she is still obliged to stop and, afterwards, make a complaint or objection

 

• PNLD - Constable in uniform - Uniform - a constable in uniform has been held to include a uniformed constable not wearing a helmet, or when driving a private car and wearing a raincoat. The court may assume that the constable was in uniform unless the defence alleges that he was not. - relevant legislation S163 RTA 1988

   

• PNLD – For Plain cloths officers - R (on the application of Rutherford) v Independent Police Complaints Commission 2010 – [even] Though the power [to stop a vehicle] did not exist in section 163, the basis in common law for exercising the power did exist. 

   

Drawing these threads together the general public and the judiciary accept that in circumstances where a driver is required to stop by police they should do so.  The legislation does not specify how the requirement to stop should be conveyed to a motorist, but a common sense approach should be taken.  You note the acceptance of Common Law in some circumstances mentioned by the Courts.

 

Blue lights as you can see are a bit of a red herring in that the requirement to stop is in the Highway Code rather than legislation, but not getting out of the way could have other repercussions.

 

Case law is not conclusive about the wearing of the uniform and each set of circumstances will have to be considered individually.

[johnb]

Not sure if this is a relevant question, but the reply mentions "Traffic Officer". I believe this is the wording on the side of many vehicles patrolling  major roads. I believe they are not police officers. Are these the Traffic Officers referred to? Whilst obviously we would obey any directions given on the road by these officers, I am wondering if they have the powers of the police?

[Paladin]

Thank you, Wildfuzz, for that comprehensive answer. In a nut-shell, we have to keep out of the way of emergency vehicles displaying blue lights, a police officer (and traffic officer) in uniform has the power to stop a vehicle or pedal cycle, but there is no legislation that requires a motorist to stop, simply because a police vehicle is displaying blue lights (which was the purport of statement by the 'spokesman').

The traffic officers to which reference is made are employed by Highways England and do not have the same powers as police officer. A detailed explanation of who they are and what their role is can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_England_Traffic_Officer_Service

[Speleologist]

12 minutes ago, johnb said:

Not sure if this is a relevant question, but the reply mentions "Traffic Officer". I believe this is the wording on the side of many vehicles patrolling  major roads. I believe they are not police officers. Are these the Traffic Officers referred to? Whilst obviously we would obey any directions given on the road by these officers, I am wondering if they have the powers of the police?

The interesting question here, which would require more legal advice, is one of timing. There are indeed Traffic Officers, employed by Highways England, who are not police. They also do not have blue lights. However, they have only existed since 2004, and the reference aboce to Traffic Officer is in the 1988 Road Traffic Act. It therefore was almost certainly intended to mean a policeman on dedicated traffic duties. That raises the question as to whether a policeman traffic officer has the right to stop when in plain clothes. Although that seems moot as the common law right would seem to cover it.

[VetChugger]

Years ago whilst driving my "super fast" Fiat Strada out of Wakefield I suddenly became aware of a car alongside! There was a fella gesticulating at me and furiously waving a police helmet!

I did pull over more out of curiosity than obligation. Well, he berated and cursed me no end over my speed bemoaning the fact that he could have booked me if only he had been in a traffic car!

Of course H. M. Constabulary have got their own back on me numerous times since!

[TheQ]

The interesting thing is that you have to obay all road signs, while keeping off the road, which if you are stopped  at traffic lights  is a contradiction in the wording.

 It also does not mention a police car on the road with flashing lights, but the policeman not being at the car ( and no police stop sign on the car) but 30 ft away chatting to someone on the side road. ignoring the main road.

Can you pass the car?

 I would say you can, I have alway been told a police car with flashing lights, means it's a police car with flashing lights and that's all, because there is no policeman  / sign saying you can't  pass.

That was not the opinion of the policeman who stuck his head in my car (the window was open) and shouted at me banging on the roof  / side of my car with his hands and shouted me down whenever I attempted to say anything. If I'd had a car camera at the time this would have been sent to the chief police officer. As evidence of his impolite behavior and lack of knowledge of the regulations .

 

 Notes,

 The police car was parked, nose first, half into the side road,

I passed very slowly, as I wasn't sure what the **** was going on, I had not in 40 years of driving seen a police car half parked into a side road as an attempt to close the main road.

It was the driver on the car he was chatting to that pointed out I was passing.

This was on the Norwich -Coltishall road last year...

[Paladin]

3 hours ago, Speleologist said:

The interesting question here, which would require more legal advice, is one of timing. There are indeed Traffic Officers, employed by Highways England, who are not police. They also do not have blue lights. However, they have only existed since 2004, and the reference aboce to Traffic Officer is in the 1988 Road Traffic Act. It therefore was almost certainly intended to mean a policeman on dedicated traffic duties. That raises the question as to whether a policeman traffic officer has the right to stop when in plain clothes. Although that seems moot as the common law right would seem to cover it.

The Traffic Management Act 2004 created traffic officers (as employed by Highways England), and amended various sections of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Section 6(4) of the TMA amended section 163 of the RTA, to give those HE traffic officers powers to stop vehicles, so your supposition that, for the purposes of the RTA, the expression 'traffic officer' means a police officer on dedicated traffic duties is incorrect.

A police officer not in uniform has no statutory power to stop a vehicle. The case of R (on the application of Rutherford) v Independent Police Complaints Commission 2010 involved a suspicion of theft of a vehicle and assault on police,  so it goes a bit deeper than just a simple stop for a documents check.

[Paladin]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

The interesting thing is that you have to obay all road signs, while keeping off the road, which if you are stopped  at traffic lights  is a contradiction in the wording.

 

That is a very important point of which to take note. If you pull across a red traffic light to get out of the way, or exceed the speed limit so as not to impede a vehicle on blue lights while you find a safe place to pull over, you can be prosecuted.

[grendel]

I was driving the other day when an ambulance came blue lighting up the  bus lane, I naturally stayed in the main road, edging toward the centre and slowing down to allow the taxi in the bus lane to move over into my lane giving the ambulance a clear route, but no, the taxi slowed in the bus lane causeing the ambulance to have to blast him on the horns, surely its obvious to anyone that the bus lane will be clearer for the ambulance with less vehicles to have to move out of the way. surely as a normal car, I am not allowed in the bus lane by that note above, so surely the taxi driver was in the wrong.