AQUAFIBRE MOULDS

[oldgregg]

The Ocean 30 wasn't a production Broom model per se, I think that's the problem.

They did fit out some themselves, but they also supplied them as mouldings via sister company Aquafibre and thus there are probably more of those (and the centre cockpit 30's) around than Broom fitted out. For that reason I think they only consider models which were exclusively built by Broom as a 'proper' Broom.

Broom as a boatbuilder are no more anyway, so it's all a bit irrelevant now.

[C.Ricko]

the C405 is still at stalham waiting for the saloon roof mould to be delivered so we can make it...

the superstructure is waiting to be joined and the hull is out of the way in the shed.  

[BB37]

29 minutes ago, C.Ricko said:

the C405 is still at stalham waiting for the saloon roof mould to be delivered so we can make it...

the superstructure is waiting to be joined and the hull is out of the way in the shed.  

 

Do you also do the fit out?

 

We own a Ocean 30, it would be a real shame if the mould have been cut as they are such a great design.

[oldgregg]

12 hours ago, BB37 said:

Do you also do the fit out?

We own a Ocean 30, it would be a real shame if the mould have been cut as they are such a great design.

The fitout is done in Northern Ireland by Westwood (not to be confused with Westward, who were an outfit in Beccles!)

There are a lot of old moulds which got cut up. It's a shame, but many of them haven't been used in decades and they take up a lot of space. I think the only mould to have been used relatively recently is the Pearl 38 and I'm told the last one of those was around 2009. 

[LondonRascal]

Some of the issue is how do you know about these things being sat there unless you were in the industry or a member of this Forum with mention being made of them.

I mean, seriously there are plenty of people looking at boats to buy and many must be like I have been - it is all very well but - type of feeling. What you like is now getting too long in the tooth so far as the engines, electrical systems and fit out go but the physical boat shape, style and size is still great.

I rather like the Shadow 33 hard top and for about £125,000 new is surprisingly good value - if you could stick to the end build coming in for that mind you.

I am not saying a boatyard should go making 'one off' examples of boats out of moulds that have been sat for years in the hope somebody somewhere might buy one such example, but with the power of animation and graphics generally these days you could take the designs and bring them to life in the virtual world which when shown off might kick start some orders.

I noticed that for £2,000 you can buy the complete mould tools and build rights to a Moonraker 36 - that is incredibly cheap - or £95,000 for the mould tool for a Sealine T60. Bung them on a ship to Taiwan or Thailand and have the boys over there do all the GRP and joinery work then transport the finished boat back to blighty for final fittings of of compliant parts for UK spec and CE certification and have the boat as a 'UK built' boat. for a fraction of the cost it would take to build here. Where there is a will, there is a way. This worked well for Tarquin Trader under the leadership of Tony Chappell who made a great deal out of such until allegedly he got a bit too greedy and things went downhill.

 

 

[NeilB]

There's probably a few moulds lying around in various places although a lot are destroyed once production ends.  I know of one UK builder who ordered a mould chopped up, the workers destroyed the wrong one which was an expensive mistake!!

Sealine went bust April 2013 so they didn't build many T60's, if anyone did buy them they would be advised to re-design the machinery layout.  Remote mount v-drive gears was not one of the best ideas Sealine had and added significant cost.  I did send the specs to the gent who bought the moulds from the administrators so he may still have them.

The Sealine T50 moulds made their way to Norfolk, there were plans for them but it died a death, not sure if they have been disposed of as well.

 

[C.Ricko]

I think we probably had the last 3 pearls but can't be sure... 

the T60 moulds could be had for a lot less than £95k! 

The T50 were supposedly sold but are still where they were ..

Why would anyone outside the industry see it as an issue that the old moulds were being disposed of? 

[oldgregg]

I think there was a private Pearl moulded within the last ten years, but not since the demise of AF I guess.

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[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, C.Ricko said:

Why would anyone outside the industry see it as an issue that the old moulds were being disposed of?

Some might simply have an emotional feeling of "That's such a shame" having spend many holidays on a particular style of boat perhaps through many different boatyards over the years and then learn no more of those boats could ever be made again.

But generally, no not many people would care. 

The funny thing is boat building in my mind is rather theatrical as if one is 'dressing a set'. You have a boat shell that you then fit out and the style that is done in and materials used is where things can really make the difference.  Look at what Barnes have done with their Serenade (an Aquafibre Diamond). By making a modification to the stern, using tinted bonded windows, moving the engine to the rear and running it on hydraulic drive and opening up the interior this has made all the difference to a boat shape and style that was from the 90's.

I know the same recipe won't make an Ocean 30 suddenly look 'modern' but there have been some pretty timeless designs over the years that with the right interiors and maybe a slight re-think of where a window goes or it's shape would make them revitalised. After all, if you start from scratch with a plain sheet of paper you might get a radical and very modern design but you also have had to go through that process of design - that ain't cheap, where as an existing mould on the other hand you can get stuck in to laying up. That also is not 'cheap' but the real cost is in labour time and the interior fit out that follows not so much making the shell.

[oldgregg]

18 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Look at what Barnes have done with their Serenade (an Aquafibre Diamond). By making a modification to the stern, using tinted bonded windows, moving the engine to the rear and running it on hydraulic drive and opening up the interior this has made all the difference to a boat shape and style that was from the 90's.

The trouble is they also removed the helm / engine moulding, which included the steps and wraparound seating which means access to the deck is now more awkward. It also means that it's not possible to stand to the side of the helm (with the canopy open) and steer with your head out the top.

Either way, these are old designs and it would be nice to see something from a clean sheet.

Anyone fancy designing a Pearl 38 / Bounty 40 / 2nd gen Fair Entrepeneur mashup? 

[LondonRascal]

13 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

It also means that it's not possible to stand to the side of the helm (with the canopy open) and steer with your head out the top

I have to disagree there. Not having to sit on top of an engine no bad thing, and allows the saloon to be more light and open feeling without the 'big engine box' being there. You also can still stand up and loo out, but granted getting out the side of the boat now means stepping on a seat.

If I was designing a hire boat today the first thing I would do (which so far as I can tell nobody ever has) is go bonkers in asking people what they want - really engage over all these Facebook Groups, Forums, and my own customers instead of saying "take a look at the new boat we are building" and this is the first time people will have set eyes on the design or layout.

I think it is important to consider design aspects from the past - like a gentle lowering to the transom for easy boarding, but it not just about the physical shape, I think boats need to be more user friendly inside too. Why do hire boats need so much instrumentation? Just a throttle, and a GPS speedo should be needed along with a readout for fuel, water and waste. That is it. No key, just a 'power' button so many are used to in their cars now. A simple two stage 'boat systems' indicator would display green for go or red to stop and call the boatyard covering everything from low oil pressure to a hot running engine. 

I consider more modular fit-outs which can be removed and changed to suit like a 'sofa bed' style seat conversation from a seating area to a bed in one swift move and on premium boats like this, I'd get some proper mattresses from the likes of Eve and or Simba.

[oldgregg]

12 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

If I was designing a hire boat today the first thing I would do (which so far as I can tell nobody ever has) is go bonkers in asking people what they want - really engage over all these Facebook Groups, Forums, and my own customers instead of saying "take a look at the new boat we are building" and this is the first time people will have set eyes on the design or layout.

I can think of one yard which has done just that...

[Wyndham]

14 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

 You also can still stand up and loo out,.....

That made me laugh

Going back to something you said earlier regarding engine placement. Is a hull designed with the weight distribution in mind?

If it is then does it affect the handling if the engine is moved from up front to the back.

[LondonRascal]

Yeah granted I can think of that too (asking advice from public as to new boats) [slaps wrist] as to the weight distribution I doubt it would effect handling, but you just move mass around and one of the easiest ways to do this is batteries and in the case of Serenade since it has so many they have been put in places to balance up the fact there is now an engine and drive at the back of the boat.

 

[Guest]

Personally I am a bit sad if the Pearl 38 mould has been cut up, I always thought it was the best of the centre cockpit/sliding roof designs.

 

[LondonRascal]

The problem is how many of the Pearl's have been in hire and are not now - masses of them.

Herbert Woods and Barnes have got them for sale at the moment - so nice as they can be especially if one re-jigs the internal fit out, they are 'of their time'. I guess they are only being sold on when bookings for them dwindle compared to other boats in their fleet. They are to me very 'graceful' and elegant in their looks and they handle very well too.

[oldgregg]

The Pearls are a great-looking boat, but it's a 30 year old design now.

Most moulds only seem to be really popular for 5-10 years. Once they've lost their 'wow' factor, yards need to build something else or add different details etc because it's not good for them to be investing in a design that won't pull in the bookings.

If a new Richardson's design was released this year, the world and his wife would book it... But if they put out a new-build Bounty 40 or Pearl 38 then it would not have the same draw, despite those both being quite timeless and elegant designs.

Really it'd be a bit like Ford releasing a 'new' MK1 Focus and expecting people to buy it. Nothing wrong with it, but consumer demand just doesn't work like that.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LondonRascal said:

The problem is how many of the Pearl's have been in hire and are not now - masses of them.

Herbert Woods and Barnes have got them for sale at the moment - so nice as they can be especially if one re-jigs the internal fit out, they are 'of their time'. I guess they are only being sold on when bookings for them dwindle compared to other boats in their fleet. They are to me very 'graceful' and elegant in their looks and they handle very well too.

Yes fashions change, but not always for the better, agreed they handle well and have some clever features that make them easy to live with like the lowered freeboard aft and the sliding section in the canopy. The Herbert woods one for sale has a very dated tired looking  fitout and a BMC 1.5, not worth anywhere near the asking price in my opinion.

[LondonRascal]

The thing is there consumers when it comes to hiring boats are, with respect to them not the same as when buying a new car (or indeed a new build boat for themselves).  You've got a vast number who book on price and then you have those willing to spend a lot more on quality and many would see 'new build' as representing 'premium quality'.

So, build a new boat and it will book - because it is new, shiny and has the latest mod-cons - I am not sure many of the average holiday makers worry about the design too much, but prefer space and a fresh clean look inside. So maybe a new build Pearl fitted out as a four berth with two 'scissor' singles in the bow with en-suite, and a double at the stern and 'encroach' into the middle galley area to make the rear cabin a little larger, fit some glassy windows, bow an stern thrusters, an electric canopy and have a nice modern fit-out internally and you'd get people booking it as it is brand new.

If you could make some subtle changes to the lines through the placement and style of windows you could well make it look a lot different in profile - just as Serenade did. Yes, it looks like Benmore if stop and think but it also looks very leek and modern compared, and the fact they have built 5 of them says it must be a goodun.

[oldgregg]

I think there are enough people who do know, though.

I wouldn't book it and nor would you, but a new design and I probably would...

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[NeilB]

1 hour ago, Wyndham said:

Going back to something you said earlier regarding engine placement. Is a hull designed with the weight distribution in mind?

If it is then does it affect the handling if the engine is moved from up front to the back.

On a Broads cruiser engine placement may be a consideration when designing the hull but don't think it's critical.     Both Bounty and Alpha had rear mounted engines on hydraulics and mid mounted shaft installations on the same hull.  As long as other heavy items have their locations planned it should be OK.  I have heard rear engines Alphas handle better than mid engine but not noticed a big difference myself.

Planning boats are a difference kettle of fish and weight distribution is critical, even moving a pair of engines a few inches can make a huge difference.

[Guest]

My boat was designed as a mid engine but has an aft engine and hydraulic drive, the fuel tank and house batteries are in the bow which balances the weight and I would say it handles better than other Safari 25's I have tried with a more positive and stable front end

[WherryNice]

5 hours ago, oldgregg said:

I think there was a private Pearl moulded within the last ten years, but not since the demise of AF I guess.

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app
 

I recall seeing a Pearl for sale at NYA Horning a couple of years(ish) ago and the sales blurb made mention of it being a very late one from about 2009 I think.

On a side note did all Pearls have the same helm seat moulding? Tried one last weekend and it took the shine right off them for me, knees wedged against the wheel and bolt upright backrest, not comfy at all and I'm pretty average height.

[TheQ]

51 minutes ago, 40something said:

My boat was designed as a mid engine but has an aft engine and hydraulic drive, the fuel tank and house batteries are in the bow which balances the weight and I would say it handles better than other Safari 25's I have tried with a more positive and stable front end

Opposite problem to the centre cockpit Elysian 27s, hull designed for an aft engine but now mounted mid engine, it's very easy to make it go bow down, then a lot of water collects on the foredeck.

 With my electric engine set up, the batteries make it worse again, additional ballast in the stern is one of this years projects. Putting the batteries in the stern would be a better solution, but would require hugely expensive cableing to get the power forward to the controller and engine.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

The problem is how many of the Pearl's have been in hire and are not now - masses of them.

Herbert Woods and Barnes have got them for sale at the moment - so nice as they can be especially if one re-jigs the internal fit out, they are 'of their time'. I guess they are only being sold on when bookings for them dwindle compared to other boats in their fleet. They are to me very 'graceful' and elegant in their looks and they handle very well too.

And how many of them are the cherished possession of proud owners.

Fred