Interesting Tolls Discussion

[kfurbank]

After much deliberation I have decided to stay on The Broads for another year. So I went online to renew my toll and I cannot do so without being forced into making an insurance declaration. So I then rang the tolls office and explained that I wanted to renew my toll. Not a problem, can you confirm that you have insurance, to which I politely explained that I was ringing to renew my toll, not to discuss my insurance, only to be told that they cannot issue a toll without me confirming I have insurance!!!

I then explained to the gent, that there is nothing in the Broads Authority Act 2009 that makes the issuing or with holding of the toll dependant on me making an insurance declaration. There is a section in the act that requires me to have a BSS and third party insurance, but nothing that allows them to withhold the issuing of a toll. I have made it clear that I am prepared to pay for a toll, but my offer has been declined.

Call me a pedant if you want, but after correspondence with Steve Birtles over various insurance companies it has been stated to me that it is down to the owner to ensure his insurance meets the requirements of The Broads Authority Act 2009 not The BA. This is allowing The BA to slip out of ensuring that certain insurance companies meet the requirements of The Broads Authority Act 2009. If The BA are not certain enough about what insurance companies meet the requirements, why should I as a layman make a declaration about my insurance to them?

The offer of payment has been made, and rejected, not a lot more I can do for now. Interesting times ahead. 

I want to know what byelaw, or act of parliament has been passed that allows The BA to with hold issuing a toll? I fully accept that the Act allows them to demand to see my insurance, and or BSS, but I don't think they can even with hold the issuing of a toll for not having a BSS.

[Hockham Admiral]

Oh Dear, Keith!

I rang last Friday afternoon, got through straight away, and it was all dusted within 2 minutes with me unaware of the section that  you mention.

Easy for me to say but at my old age it's frequently easier to just say"Yes" and let them get on with it......

I get enough aggravation other places!   

[kfurbank]

Don't worry John, Point of principle,   about time they were held to account, and stop making up their own rules.  

[JennyMorgan]

I am completely with John on this one, a simple 'yes' was all that was required! Me, my insurance renewal comes up later in the year so I can say 'yes' with an easy conscience.

 I admit that I can be an awkward sod when it comes to petty officialdom but in this case I would simply let it ride with the required answer, especially as I'll be insuring anyway.

[vanessan]

This is going to be really interesting. I am like HA, happy to confirm (or otherwise) that I have what is required and then just get on with it. Having said that, there are times when I wonder if something really was necessary and I end up wishing I hadn't been so quick to acquiesce and had stood my ground. I suppose the BA consider themselves like the dvla, if you don't provide proof of insurance you can't tax your car. But the BA don't have the powers of the dvla. The offer of payment has been made and refused, watch this space! 

[kfurbank]

Peter, The issue is that they are passing the buck for ensuring that insurance meets the requirements of the act to the owner. This is allowing the use of insurance companies that DO NOT meet the requirements of the Act. As you well know, they wanted the Act and spent toll payers money on gaining it. What they didn't gain was the right to with hold a toll on a whim, or made up byelaw.

For reference the requirements for third party insurance and BSS are all covered in The Broads Authority Act 2009. Payment of tolls is all covered in the earlier Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988. None of that has been amended since the requirements to have insurance under the 2009 act.

They CANNOT withhold a toll.

[JennyMorgan]

Keithe, I can't disagree with you on this one. It's generally accepted that the Broads Act was poorly drafted and clearly needs revision. The Act in regard to adjacent waters being a prime example!

[Vaughan]

When I ran a hire fleet on the Thames, the boats were inspected by the NRA (ex Thames Conservancy) every autumn and any points noted were re-inspected in the Spring. A river toll was then issued and if the boat did not have this displayed on the windscreen it was simply not allowed through the locks. 

I don't remember this having anything to do with insurance although I imagine there may have been another act that covered it. That didn't concern us, since no fool would run hire hire boats if they were not insured. . . . . I trust.

[Paladin]

kfurbank, while I wish you every success, you may find that the Vessel Registration Bye Law No. 20 provides the BA with an 'out':

"Any person applying to the Authority for a toll receipt shall do so on a form prescribed by the Authority and containing such particulars as the Authority may from time to time reasonably require, including (but without prejudice to the generality thereof) such information as may be necessary to enable the Authority to determine the toll to be paid in respect of the vessel."

So, if they require confirmation of insurance and it isn't given, the application isn't correctly made and a refusal results.

On the other hand, they might just back down...

[Baitrunner]

I did mine online and think I just had to tick the box. It's a bit like a customs declaration really. Pointless unless your doing something wrong and get caught  

To be honest I'm happy they check. Don't want uninsured fools out there joke by the way. 

I can see your point though. But to be honest I have insurance and I have far more important things to use my time on. 

Good luck. 

[kfurbank]

7 minutes ago, Paladin said:

kfurbank, while I wish you every success, you may find that the Vessel Registration Bye Law No. 20 provides the BA with an 'out':

"Any person applying to the Authority for a toll receipt shall do so on a form prescribed by the Authority and containing such particulars as the Authority may from time to time reasonably require, including (but without prejudice to the generality thereof) such information as may be necessary to enable the Authority to determine the toll to be paid in respect of the vessel."

So, if they require confirmation of insurance and it isn't given, the application isn't correctly made and a refusal results.

On the other hand, they might just back down...

No form on the tolls phoneline

[marshman]

Just why is it that the world is full of some people who cannot do anything without causing hassle? Do you really think you are good enough to take on the BA on something like this? My guess is that it has been run past their own lawyers several times and Steve Birtles is nobody's fool. I have had several dealings with him and he is usually right! And whilst you are busy wasting their time, its costing me more money and providing justification of having more staff in the tolls office!!

And in any case the reason for the insurance is for your benefit and indeed mine and I applaud it - not like some!

[kfurbank]

Paladin, Isn't the toll receipt the sticky toll plaque that they no longer issue? I'm not applying for a toll receipt just trying to pay a toll. Think byelaw 20 is somewhat out of date now!!!

Taken from Interpretation, "Toll Receipt" means the document, disc, badge or mark issued to the owner of the vessel by the Authority to indicate that the appropriate toll has been paid for that vessel for the period covered by the toll receipt.

[ChrisB]

I did mine online and rec'd my receipt along with my tide tables. Most marinas require a declaration of insurance, you can't tax a car without insurance. I don't see the problem of ticking a box or saying yes I am insured.

[kfurbank]

Just now, ChrisB said:

I did mine online and rec'd my receipt along with my tide tables. Most marinas require a declaration of insurance, you can't tax a car without insurance. I don't see the problem of ticking a box or saying yes I am insured.

The private contract between you and your marina is something you both have to agree on, or you can go elsewhere. Car road tax law is totally different to The Broads Acts.

The BA are acting over and above the powers given to them by the government under The acts of 1988 and 2009.

They are more than welcome at any time to stop me on the river and ask to see my insurance and it will be for them to determine whether it meets the requirements.

They have NO right to refuse me a toll based on whether I am prepared to self certify my insurance meets their requirement.

[ChrisB]

Then if you feel so strongly about this issue I would run it past a solicitor in the first instance. But do not be surprised if he then seeks advice from a Barrister. 

Having been down that route on a matter in 2015 it does not come cheap.

I would be surprised if the BA's legal team have not looked at all aspects of Tolls and insurance requirements.

 

[unclemike]

1. 8 minutes ago, kfurbank said:

   The private contract between you and your marina is something you both have to agree on, or you can go elsewhere. Car road tax law is totally different to The Broads Acts.

   The BA are acting over and above the powers given to them by the government under The acts of 1988 and 2009.

   They are more than welcome at any time to stop me on the river and ask to see my insurance and it will be for them to determine whether it meets the requirements.

   They have NO right to refuse me a toll based on whether I am prepared to self certify my insurance meets their requirement.

   this may break tos but mod if beccessary

what a load of self righteous claptrap, the BA can refuse to toll you without insurance.

their river their rules

[kfurbank]

Just now, chameleon said:

1. this may break tos but mod if beccessary

what a load of self righteous claptrap, the BA can refuse to toll you without insurance.

their river their rules

Sorry who's river? Who's rules? An act or two of parliament giving limited powers to an unelected quango., anyway please show me where in the byelaws, or acts of parliament it says they can refuse to issue you a toll? Oh and who said I wasn't insured?

[unclemike]

sorry, to keep it simple no insurance no toll, if you do not declare insurance they will refuse toll, the paper application demands a declaration, so does the online,so, if you are on the phone surely it is easy to say yes i have insurance.cannot see your twisted logic at all,you seem to be  obstructive for the sake of B.A. bashing

 

[kfurbank]

Mike, Where in the Byelaws, or Broads Authority Acts which govern what powers the BA has does it say no insurance, no toll? Just because they are asking you to tick a box, sign a declaration on the paper version, or make a declaration over the phone, doesn't mean they have the power to.

I'll make this simple as well. The acts give them the power to request a toll. It gives them separate powers to ask to see your insurance at any time. It gives them separate powers to see other documentation relating to your boat. It does not make any of that dependant on the issuing of a toll.

[Hockham Admiral]

Let's keep it friendly, please, Peeps.

We all have our own ways of expressing things, after all.    

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

I did mine online and rec'd my receipt along with my tide tables. Most marinas require a declaration of insurance, you can't tax a car without insurance. I don't see the problem of ticking a box or saying yes I am insured.

As I see it, there appears to be one (at least) company selling insurance to Broads boat owners which does not   meet the requirements under the 2009 act, and the BA are not prepared to tackle this, although it has been raised with them as an issue.

[MauriceMynah]

I insured my boat in good faith. As far as I know it passes all the requirements of the BA. But how can I or anyone else be sure?

I take for example dear old Agnes Thrympton who doesn't belong to any forum as she has no computer. She runs her 45ft sailing boat single handed and renews her toll over the phone.. How does she know if her insurance cuts the mustard? 

 

[addicted]

I may be being obtuse here but each year we phone round to make sure we get the best deal.  I didn't know we were supposed to be insuring to comply with the  terms of an Act. What would constitute  not meeting the requirements?

 

 

Carole

[ranworthbreeze]

Just now, MauriceMynah said:

I insured my boat in good faith. As far as I know it passes all the requirements of the BA. But how can I or anyone else be sure?

I take for example dear old Agnes Thrympton who doesn't belong to any forum as she has no computer. She runs her 45ft sailing boat single handed and renews her toll over the phone.. How does she know if her insurance cuts the mustard? 

 

Lets face it John we only know if any of our insurance companies cuts the mustard when they have paid out in full following a successful claim.

Regards

Alan