Survey Questions

[Jocave]

Hi this is a non broads related question but would like some general advice on a potential boat purchase from the GRP experts if that's ok in this section, due to my wife's health rapidly going down hill we are thinking this year may be the last holidays on the broads for a while, at least until I retire anyway , in the meantime we are thinking about purchasing a boat closer to home for weekends/weeks away, question is regarding boat surveys, what exactly is checked/inspected ,one boat we had enquired about has according to the marina already had a survey but is still for sale, is this anything to be worried about, my concern is it was surveyed on behalf of a potential buyer but they backed out due to the findings, also is it really worth it on a sub 10k boat that's been afloat since the 70's, one I looked at in my preferred marina was only 5k ,it needed a repaint but would have done us for a few years , just wondering if its worth paying for a lift out and survey on something as cheap as that, I'm not really bothered if its worth nothing in five years time as its more about enjoying it now while we can but would rather not buy something that will cost the same again in repairs, any advice welcome ..

[dnks34]

If somebody else has backed out on it then that rings an alarm bell but it all depends on how much work you are prepared to take on yourself.

Look for the obvious problems first.  Is it dry inside, look for leaking windows and damp, these are the things that will make it unpleasant to be on and are usually time consuming and costly to rectify.

There are many many things that could be wrong or go wrong on a boat that age its almost impossible to say.  People buy without surveys but if you dont like diy or have some knowledge its probably not wise on a boat that age.  Is it inboard or outboard? Shaft or outdrives, the actual condition of the GRP is probably the least to worry about!

Even painting a boat can easily run to 1000s! How big is it for starters?!

[Jocave]

It appears dry all over and it seems to run OK ,its a four stroke outboard, all the boats so far I have looked at have had an outboard, that seems to be the norm at this price range, it was more strucrual issues I was worried about rather than cosmetics or internal fit out

[Jocave]

That was the cheapest one we looked at ,its really tired but it has a great mooring

http://www.marineserviceschirk.co.uk/luckylady/

[JennyMorgan]

No boat of that age & price is ever going to impress a surveyor but for me the biggest question would be in regard to the engine, what size is it? Too big & it's probably never been worked hard enough, too small & it won't do the job and does it have a service history? Argue the price at this time of the year and good luck! 

[CambridgeCabby]

One thing to bear in mind is that most (but not all) insurers insist on a survey prior to agreeing a policy 

[imtamping2]

Don't limit your search to where you want your boat to be moored you can always transport it.and is 11 miles of canal going to be enough space for you ?

[Baitrunner]

Ask to see the survey or if they don't have it ask who did it. You may find it was a load of little things that had put someone off buying?

equally, it may have been a major one!!!

fir £5k, your likely to spend a fair bit on just moorings, insurance, tolls, servicing as well as the inevitable repairs. Even if your happy to do the work yourself, something like A couple of new batteries could turn into several hundred pounds. Not major, but would need to be done. 

Sorry, but not trying to put you off, just don't want you to get stung. 

Try and speak to the current owners and ask them why they are selling. Your likely to find they are genuine and maybe just outgrew the boat. Not foolproof, but you might get an inkling of anything that rings alarm bells. 

Good luck. 

[MBA Marine]

Would that be an old Norman boat in the link? it would have to have a nearly new  outboard to be worth that sort of money.  Old cooker, porta pottie and a bit tatty. Any tares in the canopy and how 'crispy' is the canopy material?  

Its double the money I would expect for a boat like this unless its in mint condition, and its not uncommon to find them in working order for £1500,  the engine is the bulk value of a boat like this, if its a old 2 stroke i should give it a wide berth.

[ExUserGone]

There are still people that run in terror at the mention of osmosis on a survey, the reality is no-one ever sunk from it and all older boats have it to some extent, if the boat suits your requirements and the price is right don't be too frightened off by a previous survey but as said you will probably need one to get insurance and they normally say survey recomendations complied with.

Good canopy and good 4 stroke outboard is a must, windows always leak to some extent on an older boat.

[Hylander]

Thanks to St Olaves Marina ,  we lost a lot of money on our sale of our boat thanks to the suspicion of osmosis,  they convinced the buyer to drop us nearly £8.000 off the sale price.   A right con, and negativity because we had an older boat that was in tip top condition and we had spent in excess of £20,000 on her , thanks to this osmosis fear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dnks34]

Leaking windows and the untold damage water ingress can do is the thing I find most infuriating about boat ownership.  

The same can be said for anything else screwed or bolted into the hull above the water line, stanchions, cleats, deck fittings they are all a point of water ingress and if left to leak can do a great deal of damage resulting in difficult and awkward repairs, or even worse hidden damage left for some unsuspecting person to deal with in the future!  

I agree the Engine and Canopy are certainly very important but try not to get caught out by anything hidden, things that can be an even bigger pain in the posterior than an outboard that needs a bit of work!! 

For instance whats going on aside that porta potti in the pictures, the wall lining appears like it could be water damaged behind resulting in that rippling.......it may not be but its worth a closer look and this is what a surveyer would do for you. 

Whatever you decide I do hope you enjoy your time on the water!

[dnks34]

Suspicion of Osmosis, if its there its normally pretty obvious! Our boat has plenty.  I work on the principle small blisters good, dinnerplate sized very bad!!!!

[ExUserGone]

I spotted some blisters on my boat in photos before I went to look at it, knew they were there and would have been surprised otherwise on a 1982 boat, still bought it and didn't bother haggling based on it.

[MBA Marine]

1 hour ago, dnks34 said:

Suspicion of Osmosis, if its there its normally pretty obvious! Our boat has plenty.  I work on the principle small blisters good, dinnerplate sized very bad!!!!

Dinner plate very bad indeed, I worked on a boat last year that had dinner plate sized blisters, give it a prod and you get a face full of water, remove the blister and after drying your face what is left was a creator but worse that a creator was backed by barely an 1/8th of glass left, and it was wet on the inside, GRP is porous due to water tracking up the centre of each glass strand like a straw, we face the surface with a water tight barrier being the gel but still a knock and a chip or just thin gel and water finds a way.

Boat sinking is usually down to bilge pump failure, but how the water got in the boat can come from many places one of which can be leaching blisters if they're big enough.  

[JawsOrca]

I'm with all what's been said.  Canopy and cushions on older boats can cost far more to replace than the purchase price.. Engines also obviously aren't cheap, so take a good look at these, the newer these the better.

A surveyor is only interested in the hull they will not look at the engine they will advise about seacocks although you can look at these from inside (to a degree), best practice is to really take the boat and scrape these off and make sure they aren't pink, loose or pitted, if in doubt change them..

In terms of osmosis, most old boats will have them certainly old ones and certainly cheaper boats.  Boats haven't sunk from it but it can cause problems but it's really not worth worrying about unless you are buying a new boat or a very very expensive boat. Older boats value really won't be affected by osmosis (Monica sounds like you hit a rouge).. so honestly don't worry.

So a surveyor will find osmosis though, they also will find delamination in the glass and any potential problems.. To do this they actually use a hammer but rather skillfully, you can do this yourself (to a degree) as problem areas sound different  (Normally a dull thud instead of a steady ring). They also use a moisture meter to identify previous repairs and other problem areas including water stuck in bulheads, you can't spot this yourself but as I say it's only really worth the hassle if it's new or very expensive. 

I would recommend taking it out the water really and having a look, also get someone who knows about boats to have a look too. Take the boat on a trial run and get the engine up to operating temperature.  

Older boats under a certainly value and under a certain speed shouldn't require a survey for full cover. Although if you need to claim for whatever reason it will help if you have had a survey. 

Enjoy.. 

[dnks34]

Hylander your experience with the broker could have been more about them making the sale and getting the commission in the bank, the osmosis might just have been the excuse they needed to convince you to accept that low offer. 

A few years ago now we put our boat up for sale with a broker.  Our boat is ex hire and was not in pristine condition when we bought it 7 years ago but in the years we have owned it no expense has been spared. 

A few months of dribs and drabs of interest someone came along who were apparently very interested, already had a mooring etc etc and liked the boat.  The broker told us their offer which was around 15% below asking and they were going with a survey.  We agreed to the offer (reluctantly) but made it clear there would be no more money off after the survey as we had already started out 15% below asking.  Low and behold the survey picked up a few things only to be expected of a boat of the era and the buyer came looking for more off.  

Our answer was no but the broker still tried their very best to cut a deal for the buyer......at our expense! 

After that we took the boat off the market and within a few days it was on a much cheaper mooring than our previous WRC mooring in a better location for us and so far we have had a few more years with her, made a few more improvements and at the moment have no plans to sell just yet.  

People can have very unrealistic expectations when buying boats, especially older ones.   A Broker  will advertise with a fair asking price fitting the market and then try talk you into accepting a low offer just to make a sale and get their % in the bank.   Just my opinion of course.

[Hylander]

On 5/21/2017 at 11:59 PM, dnks34 said:

Hylander your experience with the broker could have been more about them making the sale and getting the commission in the bank, the osmosis might just have been the excuse they needed to convince you to accept that low offer. 

A few years ago now we put our boat up for sale with a broker.  Our boat is ex hire and was not in pristine condition when we bought it 7 years ago but in the years we have owned it no expense has been spared. 

A few months of dribs and drabs of interest someone came along who were apparently very interested, already had a mooring etc etc and liked the boat.  The broker told us their offer which was around 15% below asking and they were going with a survey.  We agreed to the offer (reluctantly) but made it clear there would be no more money off after the survey as we had already started out 15% below asking.  Low and behold the survey picked up a few things only to be expected of a boat of the era and the buyer came looking for more off.  

Our answer was no but the broker still tried their very best to cut a deal for the buyer......at our expense! 

After that we took the boat off the market and within a few days it was on a much cheaper mooring than our previous WRC mooring in a better location for us and so far we have had a few more years with her, made a few more improvements and at the moment have no plans to sell just yet.  

People can have very unrealistic expectations when buying boats, especially older ones.   A Broker  will advertise with a fair asking price fitting the market and then try talk you into accepting a low offer just to make a sale and get their % in the bank.   Just my opinion of course.

At the time all of this happened I was very ill  (thankfully now fully recovered) and hubby was also finding clambering into the engine beyond him, coupled with lifting heavy batteries gas bottles etc we decided that the time had come to look to hiring once I was on the mend again.      Selling your boat is like cutting off your arm quite frankly and all you want to do is get it over and done with asap.    The stress of it all,   was on top of everything else going on enough, so we agreed to the lower offer.      In hindsight I wish we had held off and also I wish I had been in a position health wise to strip her of the expensive items I left on board including a set of curtains that Judith from Acle had just made us, I never did see those hanging or the new canopy.    Anyway you cannot go back and making the most of everyday from now on  is the name of the game.  

[LondonRascal]

I find it frankly amazing the prices some people expect their boat to be worth - and then how different Brokers will further add to their expectations with a higher price.

I like to keep an eye on the market, and see boats come up for sale and think 'you're having a laugh' and then the weeks and often months pass, and the prices begins to fall - £5,000 here, £1,500 there and then suddenly you see the desperation move in £10,000 drops off the asking price - will it sell? It must do...But no it still sits there and these are the good ones to go for because the seller is under pressure to sell for whatever reason and is lowering the price by ever larger amounts seeking a quick sale.

My advice would be to be as specific as you can about what you actually want and narrow things down to a type of boat (or even brand) that you are after, cash in your pocket ready to make your move but with your head taking the lead, not your heart. 

It is you holding the all the cards, the seller just so happens to have a boat – one of many out there – and you’ve happened to show some interest in their boat, but could walk away to someone else - and that is why it is key not to get carried away and overly excited and make a jump you may later regret.

I’d find the boat I was interested in, be fair and decent about matters but go in low with an opening offer – expect it to be rejected, but work up from there – never accept the sellers offer always counter it.  This is especially handy if you have had your eye on a boat and watched it fall in price – the seller does not need to know you know this, the Broker may well tell you that it had been on the market for such and such a time and to an extent the Broker is trying to please all men but still, the buyer is the key person in this.  The Broker naturally has their own idea about what they want from the transaction in form of commission – they will be eager to get the buyer ‘on their side’ and keen further to ‘sell’ what a great deal and boat is while also telling the seller that this is a keen buyer and not to let them escape and reduce the price or accept an offer.

The fact is unlike homes and even cars, boats really do vary for the same model and age and so many have had all types of works (or bodges) done to it. People tend to tinker far more with a boat than anything else and that might be down to the sheer cost of having such professionally done. 

So far as survey’s go, having one done on a £250,000 boat could be crucial and throw up the fact it had been used hard and have some issues with the hull from crashing too fast into a rough sea, but on a boat that might be up for sale at £10,000 but be ‘worth’ £5,500 would it actually tell you much more than you already could see with your own eyes? Think what the money that the Survey will cost could go towards – new batteries for example.

What you’d want to know more is what state is the engine in – outboards by their very nature will be exposed more to the elements. Without sounding to judgmental, lower value boats with lower value small HP outboards tend not to have as much care and attention to their engines with regular servicing, canopies too suffer and are expensive items to have repaired let alone replaced so these items are more able to be haggled over and can affect the purchase price, just as if the owner had a brand new canopy and full history for the engine services they would expect this to add value  (rightly so) to the boat so it can work both ways.

[Jocave]

Thanks , I do appreciate all the advice given, we have visited Chirk marina and were a bit disappointed really , its our ideal location but the marina had floating pontoons that were really narrow and in poor condition so not ideal for a wheel chair user, on to the boat , well that was proper tired , it had been painted a number of times throughout its life and was in need of a repaint again.  plenty of other issues too that were off putting to us , it seems that it was priced at least twice what it was worth just because it came with a mooring in a sought after marina, we have now widened our search to include the Lancaster canal and also the canals around Nottinghamshire

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/sm-9406-jaboulet/

[JennyMorgan]

More than that, Robin, buying on the Broads does tend to be dearer than from elsewhere. 

[JennyMorgan]

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/sm-9406-jaboulet/

I'd be wary of that engine. Clearly the engine lives in the 'down' position, not good news. Is that toilet 'carpet' lined? Nice and easy to keep clean and sweet smelling. Nice boat though. Worth haggling.

[Soundings]

On 21/05/2017 at 0:22 AM, CambridgeCabby said:

One thing to bear in mind is that most (but not all) insurers insist on a survey prior to agreeing a policy 

They will probably insure third party without survey though. Which might be good enough for a  cheap boat.

[LondonRascal]

So the boat was last anti-fouled 4 years ago, which means that will need doing, that outboard with its faded decals tells me it has been on the boat a good number of years, the green water mark on the leg that it has spent its time dunked in the water - the porta porti and the carpet lining - lovely (not) so that would need sorting, keep the toilet or spent about £60.00 for a new one. The carpet lining above the V Berth on starboard side has tell tale water marks = leak somewhere s so to my mind she is not worth £6,800

[JawsOrca]

Carpet? where? who mentioned carpet? Carpet I saw it mentioned....