Electric Boat Charging

[grendel]

it has struck me that though there are plenty of people willing to share an electric post, what would be the situation if for example, an electric boat stopped at the 24 hour moorings, but nobody allowed them to plug into a post, would they be charged with overstaying the 24 hours if for example they could not hook up to a post until somebody else left, so they were still charging when their 24 hours were up?

[ranworthbreeze]

1 minute ago, grendel said:

it has struck me that though there are plenty of people willing to share an electric post, what would be the situation if for example, an electric boat stopped at the 24 hour moorings, but nobody allowed them to plug into a post, would they be charged with overstaying the 24 hours if for example they could not hook up to a post until somebody else left, so they were still charging when their 24 hours were up?

Hi Peter, 

Are there any electric boats on the Broads these days? by all accounts the small day boats that Herbert Woods had for hire were not a great success.

Regards

Alan

[grendel]

well Q has one, but I was considering that if I ever got a boat I might well get an electric one.

[ExMemberBobdog]

Phoenix Fleet have been running electric Day boats successfully for many years; a much better way to explore Hickling and Horsey etc, without the throb of diesel disturbing the peace.  There are lots of sailies with electric outboards as standby in case the wind dies.  There are many privately owned electric dayboats around the Potter and Martham areas.  They'll happily run all day.

[Poppy]

There are electricall powered craft out there which work well. Indeed, the Nancy Olfield Trust's  cruiser 'Whie Admiral' is one, and their two 'Bass boats' have electric auxilliary power. 

Of Course, the Trust have their own charging facilities at the base, but should any private  need to charge their propulsion batteries from one of the BA points, they would almost certainly need to join the queue behind those using hair dryers etc..... 

[rightsaidfred]

Maybe a more relevant point when considering this is that a number of the moorings with charging facilities often have empty points but are full up with boats legitimately moored, are they supposed to leave to make way for an electric boat.

Fred

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

21 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Maybe a more relevant point when considering this is that a number of the moorings with charging facilities often have empty points but are full up with boats legitimately moored, are they supposed to leave to make way for an electric boat.

Fred

At it stands currently the answer to the above is no. This is all a result of the BA's very poor joined up thinking on electric boating. What about those people who have medical equipment on board that would benefit from shore power?

Perhaps the answer would have been to designate half the outlets on a post as priority points. The BA could issue a priority card to electric boaters and those who can prove they have a genuine medical reason for needing a post. At each mooring an equivalent number of mooring spots could be designated as priority moorings. Anyone could moor at a priority spot, but must move if someone with a priority card comes along seeking a mooring.

Fair or not? The electric posts were initially intended to promote electric boating, but given the number of electric boaters the network has probably been expanded far beyond the need of electric boating only and has only prompted a demand for more expansion to cater for those boaters who want a home from home. The BA really need to formulate a proper policy around the electric post network.

[JennyMorgan]

Common courtesy, sadly lacking in some quarters, demands that folk make way for an electric boat. Whether that courtesy should be extended to a boat requiring to plug in so SWMBO can plug in her hair dryer or shoe polisher is open to debate!

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

12 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Common courtesy, sadly lacking in some quarters, demands that folk make way for an electric boat. Whether that courtesy should be extended to a boat requiring to plug in so SWMBO can plug in her hair dryer or shoe polisher is open to debate!

I can see both sides, and this is why it needs to be policy driven, something along the lines of what I put in my post above yours.

The electric boater chose his boat and has potentially put themselves in the situation of needing electric posts. A mobo boater has chosen their boat with a far greater range and is more self sufficient. However they both pay their tolls and both have equal right to the facilities that those tolls pay for. You could argue that electric boating is greener and more ethical, but to allocate resources on such basis needs to be policy driven.

If a boater has to make way for an electric boat turning up, then presumably the mooring is full? So where does the displaced boater go? Suppose an electric boat turns up at 6pm or even 7pm at Ranworth, safe in the knowledge that is can displace a boat to gain a mooring, what happens to the boat that has to move on and find another mooring? They could mud weight? Not everyone likes to mud weight. They might have arrived early at 3pm to secure their mooring, why should they move?

It's easy to say common courtesy but if you take Ranworth where there are four posts and probably all the moorings spots are in reach of an outlet, who should be the one boat to give up a mooring and have to go and find another mooring? 

[JennyMorgan]

2 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

At it stands currently the answer to the above is no. This is all a result of the BA's very poor joined up thinking on electric boating. What about those people who have medical equipment on board that would benefit from shore power?

Perhaps the answer would have been to designate half the outlets on a post as priority points. The BA could issue a priority card to electric boaters and those who can prove they have a genuine medical reason for needing a post. At each mooring an equivalent number of mooring spots could be designated as priority moorings. Anyone could moor at a priority spot, but must move if someone with a priority card comes along seeking a mooring.

Fair or not? The electric posts were initially intended to promote electric boating, but given the number of electric boaters the network has probably been expanded far beyond the need of electric boating only and has only prompted a demand for more expansion to cater for those boaters who want a home from home. The BA really need to formulate a proper policy around the electric post network.

Whilst I agree with the above I also disagree. The medical issue is not one that I had considered but even then I feel strongly that a boat should be independent of shoreside power. This is a problem that has been jointly created by demand and the yards that are building power hungry boats. Whilst the BA are in a position to help it is a problem ultimately created by the yards thus surely it should also be their problem. 

[Viking23]

11 hours ago, Bobdog said:

Phoenix Fleet have been running electric Day boats successfully for many years; a much better way to explore Hickling and Horsey etc, without the throb of diesel disturbing the peace.  There are lots of sailies with electric outboards as standby in case the wind dies.  There are many privately owned electric dayboats around the Potter and Martham areas.  They'll happily run all day.

Most of the electric fleet explore the area above Potter Heigham bridge, and what a way to do it to. 

However, there is not a single electric charging point north of the bridge available for public use. Not encouraging electric boating is it? and looks to me that the electric points are only there to support gassless boats, many of which can't get under the bridge anyway, so no chance.

Whispering Reeds was listed as having one, but talking to the owner, is not now available to the public. When I contacted the Broads Authority, their response was that they had no intention of adding these in the forceable future north of Potter Heigham.

Maybe we should lobby the BA more.

Richard

[JennyMorgan]

In a nutshell, why should the BA be providing these shoreside power points? They don't supply either diesel or petrol so why electricity? 

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

2 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

In a nutshell, why should the BA be providing these shoreside power points? They don't supply either diesel or petrol so why electricity? 

Its a very good point, but I guess the answer is because there is no incentive for anyone else to provide them. You need to remember the resale of electricity act means that you can not resell electricity for more than you pay for it, aside from covering maintenance and standing charges. Diesel retailers will argue that there is very little profit in riverside diesel sales, but there is still some profit.

Imagine if a company was allowed to supply electric points and then charge £10 for an overnight plug in!! or allowed to charge per unit with a mark up per unit. Then there could well be competition to expand the network.

Whilst it remains the case that you cannot sell electric for more than cost price, it needs someone like the BA to provide the infrastructure.

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

14 minutes ago, Viking23 said:

Most of the electric fleet explore the area above Potter Heigham bridge, and what a way to do it to. 

However, there is not a single electric charging point north of the bridge available for public use. Not encouraging electric boating is it? and looks to me that the electric points are only there to support gassless boats, many of which can't get under the bridge anyway, so no chance.

Whispering Reeds was listed as having one, but talking to the owner, is not now available to the public. When I contacted the Broads Authority, their response was that they had no intention of adding these in the forceable future north of Potter Heigham.

Maybe we should lobby the BA more.

Richard

With regards to the locations North of Potter Bridge, I believe that most of the locations close to existing power are non BA moorings. Pleasure Boat, Horsey Dyke etc. The BA ones Deep Go dyke, Somerton and Catfield are probably more of a distance.

[Hylander]

I cannot see anyone coming on a Broads boating holiday that 'have' to have electric at every mooring for medical reasons.       Not all moorings have electric points , they are very few and far between.       If it were the case in this household (I hope it never happens) then a holiday cottage would be far more suitable. 

[Viking23]

5 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

...If a boater has to make way for an electric boat turning up, then presumably the mooring is full? So where does the displaced boater go? Suppose an electric boat turns up at 6pm or even 7pm at Ranworth, safe in the knowledge that is can displace a boat to gain a mooring, what happens to the boat that has to move on and find another mooring? They could mud weight? Not everyone likes to mud weight. They might have arrived early at 3pm to secure their mooring, why should they move?...

 

If an electric boat turns up after 6pm, then the BA should be called, and they can use their judgement to evict an innocent boat. I would not move on a whim.

However, there are no BA partrols at 6pm, as most have gone home. doh!

For medical reasons and the need to have instant road access for emergency hospital care then I would be put at risk if I was moved on and had a mud weight mooring or a wild mooring.

There are also less able people with poor upper body strength, that can't use a manual mud weight.

Then should dog  owners have priority at land based moorings?

No... first come first served. Join the queue.

BA please provide more 24 hour moorings, most with electric posts please.

Richard

 

[MauriceMynah]

Oh bloody hell, Mynah's on his soap box again.

First one...

9 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

The electric boater chose his boat and has potentially put themselves in the situation of needing electric posts. A mobo boater has chosen their boat with a far greater range and is more self sufficient. However they both pay their tolls and both have equal right to the facilities that those tolls pay for. You could argue that electric boating is greener and more ethical, but to allocate resources on such basis needs to be policy driven.

I understand that the electric boat is paying a lower toll, so the diesel craft should have priority.

But you would be very wrong on both counts. The Diesel engine is greener for several reasons.

20 minutes ago, Jonzo said:

Car manufacturers have decided we're all having electric cars so that technology is going to filter down eventually

Car manufacturers made that decision did they.... I suspect not. 

4 minutes ago, Viking23 said:

If an electric boat turns up after 6pm, then the BA should be called, and they can use their judgement to evict an innocent boat. I would not move on a whim.

If I were a holiday maker and that happened to me, I doubt I'd ever return to the Broads for a holiday.

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

4 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Oh bloody hell, Mynah's on his soap box again.

First one...

I understand that the electric boat is paying a lower toll, so the diesel craft should have priority.

The BA reserved a mooring below the bridge at Beccles for boats to tall to pass the bridge. This was against it's own byelaws and was challenged and now the whole mooring has been re-assigned into three sections. One for demasting, one for general use and the last for boats unable to pass under the bridge. The last category is still very suspect. Yes the average Brundall boat pays a lot more tolls than all the other boats, but in the byelaws has no more priority at any mooring.

However to expand on your theory of the diesel craft having priority over electric because it pays a higher toll, would that mean that priority should be given to larger mobo's over saily's for the moorings below Potter bridge on the basis they are unable to pass under the bridge and they pay a significantly higher toll than your average saily?

Personally I think you make your choice when buying a boat and must live with the consequences of your choice, regardless of how much toll you pay. No priority at moorings for large or very tall boats, and ditto for electric boats.

[Poppy]

5 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

The BA reserved a mooring below the bridge at Beccles for boats to tall to pass the bridge. This was against it's own byelaws and was challenged and now the whole mooring has been re-assigned into three sections. One for demasting, one for general use and the last for boats unable to pass under the bridge. The last category is still very suspect. Yes the average Brundall boat pays a lot more tolls than all the other boats, but in the byelaws has no more priority at any mooring.

However to expand on your theory of the diesel craft having priority over electric because it pays a higher toll, would that mean that priority should be given to larger mobo's over saily's for the moorings below Potter bridge on the basis they are unable to pass under the bridge and they pay a significantly higher toll than your average saily?

Personally I think you make your choice when buying a boat and must live with the consequences of your choice, regardless of how much toll you pay. No priority at moorings for large or very tall boats, and ditto for electric boats.

Waits for Mynah' s response.....

[Vaughan]

I think any operator of electric powered day boats will tell you that a simple shore power point on a mooring is not enough to charge their propulsion batteries overnight. It needs a much more powerful installation than that.

[MauriceMynah]

Where the toll charge is based foot for foot, then the larger boat pays more but takes up more space. Quid pro quo, no problem.

BUT, two boats of equal length and beam one propelled by fossil fuel converted at point of delivery (a diesel engine boat) and one where the fossil fuel is burned elsewhere  and delivered to the boat for it's use (an electric boat) pay different toll rates, the latter being subsidised by the former in the (erroneous) name of "Greenness" . It could therefore be argued that the diesel boat should have preference.

HOWEVER...

I don't believe that should be the case and although I phrased my point clumsily, I was in fact agreeing with you about "equal rights", my objection would be if the electric boat had greater rights over the diesel craft just because the government of the day said that one is greener than the other.

Your point about the choice being the purchasers I'm afraid I don't go along with that necessarily. I cannot afford an electric boat comparable with mine, nor can I afford to have mine converted. I have to use diesel or give up boating.

[LondonRascal]

I mentioned this in the past, where it all went wrong was a good idea wrongly implemented with little future thought.

The Broads Authority still refer to these as 'Electric Charging Points' and you would not see anything in their publications about them encouraging their use to run 240v appliances on boats.  But the fact of the matter is that is how they have become seen as being there for and used by both owners and hirers.

The Broads Authority had a good idea and intentions back in the day, but fell so short when they got off the shelf electric pedestals found in Marina's up and down the country and left it at that. This means anyone with the right lead can plug into it and use the power for any purpose.

All that is needed is a pedestal with a unique socket and plug (just as the electric car industry use) so a Tesla can charge at the same point as a Nissan Leaf but Mr Caravan owner can't plug his 16Amp three pin lead in and get some power. 

The power supply is at many a location now so it would not be too much to consider creating a standard on the Broads where you began to have charging points that only electric craft could use. I recon since this would be to charge their systems up why pay for the power in the same way the current posts are paid for per unit? 

It would never happen though but it could. 

You could have an industry wide agreement where the Broads Authority reduce the toll for all an electric craft to a very small amount (if anything - say for the first 3 years nil toll). They then work with operators so that 1 out of every 3 new boats  built has to be all electric and these then would only work with new electric pedestals. The fact only those electric boats could use them  then you have the beginning of an actual infrastructure - imagine that!  I recon they might even get some funding for this removing the need for the increasingly 'hated' Diesel engine and bringing quiet, green cruising to their National Park.

Using Lithium batteries more can be used, with less weight and more of their capacity can be used before needing a re-charge and charging of them would be far faster too - 3 or 4 hours to 90% charge maybe verses overnight with traditional based batteries.

Thing is this is Norfolk not Scandinavia so it will just be a pipe dream.

 

[ranworthbreeze]

The debate about what is greener, petrol, diesel or electric is a complicated  topic, there are some camps that suggest that the charging of batteries for electrical drives be they on the water or on roads causes more pollution than using fossil fuels.

I have no doubt if a real green solution became available  it would quashed.

Regards

Alan 

[ranworthbreeze]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I think any operator of electric powered day boats will tell you that a simple shore power point on a mooring is not enough to charge their propulsion batteries overnight. It needs a much more powerful installation than that.

Hello Vaughan,

I would assume that the 32 amp sockets (one on every post) was meant for charging boats that needed more power for their installations.

Regards

Alan

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:

Hello Vaughan,

I would assume that the 32 amp sockets (one on every post) was meant for charging boats that needed more power for their installations.

Regards

Alan

That's exactly what the 32 amp sockets are for but how many boaters carry a 32-16amp connector ? Many I presume , how many are prepared to give up that socket for an electric boat ? , in the past ie this yr iv given up a socket for someone basically for medical reasons but not had cause to for an electric boat because they are few and far between .

All boat be they hire or private should be capable of operating without mains power from a land line , problem is hire company's selling the dream which is akin to a 5* hotel don't believe in that and hence there's often a problem .