Big Changes Ahead

[ExSurveyor]

Hold your nerve Robin ,

Brokers are like estate agents,  they suddenly have other viewings when they get a bit of interest. 

If it is a real viewing and they aren't interested,  knock the price down,  you can always go up but not often reduce on your initial offer.

Are you concerned about the osmosis given that it has been dried each winter,  will you want to continue that practice,  that has got to be worth a reduction on its own. 

Remind me never to sell a boat to you. 

Good luck.

[CambridgeCabby]

It's a buyers world at the moment , a boat being a depreciating asset (some exceptions obviously) coupled with any ongoing expenses for the vendors means they will want or even need to sell as soon as .

the broker obviously noting your keen interest is trying (imho) to play his ace by saying they have someone else interested so as to either make you decide before you're ready to commit 100% or to achieve a higher price from you.

we had this hand played on us ,and we walked away , 12 months later we found what to us is the perfect boat , we named our price and stated that it was only on offer there and then if not we would have to move on , the broker finally settled on £3500 less than was being sought on a £30000 boat and the boat was only on the open market for 3 days .

 

you know what you want and at the price you're thinking of spending there are a lot of boats out there , including your perfect future home , looking forward to following your new adventures .

 

[Hylander]

 

Edited to add: I have just had a call from Broker. He says he has shown some clients' around today. Initially I think to myself 'oh no' could this suddenly mean the boat is pulled from under me, but then...Really? All this time on the market, reduced in price back in June, and now just a day after I get all the details from the Broker he is showing new people round. Hmm maybe but I am feeling this could be a tactic to make me jump.

 

That is a ploy a bit like items you look at on the net where they state,   last one in stock,   you buy it and then next day the last one is still there.     As has been said hold your horses although if you are anything like me you will find it hard to do that.    The one thing you have is time.      Enjoy the moment of being able to fulfil your dreams.

[LondonRascal]

I am not one to like estate agents personally, and those working for a certain chain whose offices seem to resemble a Spa come bar with fridges of spring water and fancy lighting are the worst.

1 hour ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Are you concerned about the osmosis given that it has been dried each winter,  will you want to continue that practice,  that has got to be worth a reduction on its own. 

Boats get Osmosis - though in recent years great lengths have been gone to in resins and gel coats to attempt to stop this being the case. This boat has some, not much mind you but it is present - but I bet you any boat from this manufacture of this age would also have some. The key is twofold:

1. Osmosis tends to be worse in fresh water environemnts
2. Osmosis tends to be less if a boat is wintered out of the water

With the above in mind, the fact the boat has been out the water between October and April every year since commission and when in the water has been in salt, then why has she got Osmosis? The hull was Epoxied from new in the factory but before I can get too excited about this and seek further reductions based on this, the price already is very keen compared to others.

My personal biggest concern down the road are the engine hours. I was told they were just about 1,800hrs - now I see actual photos of the digital engine hour meters showing 1,900hrs. I know these big lumps, well maintained can go on and on for many many thousands of hours. But they are mechanical and things do and can go wrong and there is this looming concern in my mind that an overhaul would be needed down the road. As an example a boat for £20,000 more of the same model has engines with only 560hrs (albeit a couple of hundred  horsepower less)

When you add these things up, the higher than average engine hours, that Osmosis, some cosmetic wear internally and externally and then you see the asking price it kind of all makes sense - want something with less well used engines? Pay more. Want something that is in finer fettle externally? Pay more.

These exact same points will be going through any perspective purchasers mind - and they will themselves be considering options, offers and what might come down in the future should they be owners. So far as I am concerned my offer I had in mind has been revised downward, but I certainly am not going to get into some kind of bidding war - life is too short for messing about, it is take it or leave it, I've got plenty of time to wait but conversely if it feels right I could move with short notice to.

As they say, it is not over until the fat lady sings.

[Springsong]

I really hope the fat lady is in good voice for you Robin. If you ever need a one legged crew who can cook (ish) steer (ish) but not a lot else I am your man. Oh and  

[Broads01]

I've never bought a boat Robin, but I've bought a few houses over the years, not to mention cars so I know the keen seller type well. In your position, I would calculate a price I was prepared to pay, taking in to account all the risks you've identified. I would then offer that on the basis that was my one and only offer and I'd be prepared to walk away, "deal, or no deal" if you like. 

[Guest]

I'm not one of those sensible advice chappies Robin, so I hope you get the boat you want at the right price and have my happy years enjoying your life...............are you going to be having a boat warming party??? 

[finny]

Personally Robin i would not get to hung up over them sort of hours - the engine has been very well looked after and diesel engines are at the best when they are grafting but if it concerns you - you could have an oil analysis done on that engine for peace of mind 

finny

[grendel]

look at it this way Robin, most plant items with similar engines are running for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week 50 weeks of the year, so thats about a years worth of work for a piece of plant, the boat has done that work over 16 years, so although fairly heavy usage for a boat - nothing to how they are treated as plant, and thinking back, didnt those two navy boats we went out with have similar sized power plants, that were maintained by the one man on board responsible for the mucky bits.

[JamesLV]

In reality, what's an extra 100 hours, an extra 2 weeks of cruising? I really wouldn't stress about it, those engines will go on for years and years, especially if they've been well looked after, I would presume (and I may be entirely wrong here) that you can take some sort of third party cover out to protect yourself in the event of a major expense, much like you do when you buy a used car privately or for that matter from a dealer?

[Bedslad]

Living the dream Robin

estate agents and brokers, lower than a snakes belly, keep your wits

 

[LondonRascal]

Some good advice. I know I am speaking aloud a lot here, well typing so forgive the long posts and so on but this is a rather big thing to contemplate and spend on so it nice to let things out to fellow boaty types.

Here are some photos of the engines - as they go, there not too bad for age and considering the salt environment subject to. The only thing I noted was this the 'green corrosion' around the inlet on the left hand engine in the first image below. It looks as if it has either come 'up' from the pipe or has a crack that is letting liquid seep out. Right hand engine duplicate looks perfect.

The Teak deck has a lot of 'meat' left in it, and it just looks like beginning to be the time where some attention is needed (possible sand and seal) since some caulking is maybe 2mm above the surrounding teak on the fore deck area.

Upper helm wheel has begun to split:

Upper helm seating has a small tear and the cover rubbing in the wind over time has caused the vinyl  to crack and wear:

 

 

[JamesLV]

Definitely been some sort of leakage on the fitting as there is some corrosion on the base of the 'swirl pot' (sorry for the wrong terminology, it's what it looks like to someone like me who is used to 'tweaked' cars)

[ScrumpyCheddar]

What size CATs are they ??? I see it's got ZF drive train on them .. 

[quo vadis]

Are you sure they are Cats Robin they look like Cummins

[finny]

they have cat filters fitted but if they was Cummins - lottery win 

 

recon i would change them inlets ......even the one not leaking 

 

finny

[LondonRascal]

There CATS 660HP (3196 is the model) - not to say underneath is a Cummins base going on. Whatever, there bloody big things.

Caterpillar-Owners-Manual.pdf

[ScrumpyCheddar]

Just now, LondonRascal said:

There CATS 660HP (3196 is the model) - not to say underneath is a Cummins base going on. Whatever, there bloody big things.

6 cylinders... 12. Litres.... at 2300rpm your push out 660hp.... and your be running 2 of them... Big bucks for fuel on them... rather you than me filling the tank on there... I would get the clutches checked on there aswell..  be interesting what the engine hours and what the boats travelling history of long spells of running flat out was... Bloody good engines CATs are but mega expensive if they go pop...personally if it was me  I would get a CAT fitter to check them out... Good luck with it Robin...

[LondonRascal]

But I was looking at boats previously with 715HP D12 Volvos - these seem a little more tame and drink less since you can cruise at say 10 Knts and be comfy - try than is beam sea with a displacement boat at hull speed, very much a rolling affair. Semi-Displacement seemed the better bet as I would not be wanting to be do 24 odd Knts everywhere

Engine hours are 1,900 Hrs. She has seen some work for sure, I have seen imagines of her with finish and Italian courtesy flags.  But since most Trader owners tend to be of a certain type and prefer the cruising life, they take it slow - thus save fuel and give engines an easier time. The good news is where she ia laying is 'round the corner' from Finning CAT and that is where she has been serviced so being able to get an oil sample sorted or a get some work done is at least close by compared to if she was in Norfolk .

 

[NeilB]

Someone mentioned an oil sample and I would strongly recommend this if you go ahead.  One of my colleagues at Volvo used to work for CAT and said to check the oil coolers as these are a known weak point.  Due to the hours they may have already been replaced.  As long as the service history stacks up I would'nt be too concerned over the hours run.

[finny]

1900 hours is nothing for them engines Robin - small marine diesel engines run and serviced will have life expectancy 5 times that much - unless you plan to get out on the salt and give them a regular thrashing then i would have concerns over under use 

 

finny

[quo vadis]

Cat or Cummins 1900 hrs is nothing they are well above and beyond Volvo

[Siddy]

Robin I'd contact CAT and ask for the service reports for this pair. A genny company we used got took over by CAT and as others Co they take a oil samples and send reports as to what's in the oil from trace of metal and coolant. A genny runs at 1500rpm but with little load on them told to run them for a max of 5 minute on a monthly test start. The core glaze up otherwise so running under load/speed prevents this. We've just swapped out a Rolls V8 with under 2000hrs cause it's not worked it's legs off.

The upper helm looked like it has 2 CAT engine management screens and could have a history log you check back to see any issues.

[ChrisB]

With regards to your intended mooring which I agree has excellent facilities, I think it is a location where you must have transport.  A mile or two walk is not a problem and keeps you fit but it is no fun carrying 15 kilo of shopping or a new microwave if yours turns it's toes up or indeed in rainy mid winter when it is dark at 16.00. Is car parking included in the residential mooring charges?

[LondonRascal]

Just a clarification on things as my original post rambled on so long I think it was lost in all the words..

I am not going to live on any boat I buy, it was the original plan when first began to look at options, but matters changed somewhat and I saw some sense (considering damp cold winter days and wondered could I really be happy with such a massive lifestyle change) and decided that no, I would prefer to just live on the land and use the boat as a bolt hole.

So, all this thread  is about buying a sea boat since that has always been my wish/dream. I like the idea of it being a substantial craft with a nice social layout and berths since frankly I like the idea to bring along different friends and be part of the adventure and cruises and so on, then for the slow, relaxed rivers I'll pop up to Stalham and have the use of B.A.

Besides this boaty part of things, I have been looking for a flat in Norwich to live in, which I think I also have found a decent new build in the heart of the city. There are some others too but housing is not a top priority since I can use my dads place in Cambridgeshire fens as a 'stop gap' between moves and itself can be an investment. So one way or the other I won’t be on the streets even if it all goes a bit Pete Tong.

Finally, I am going to reduce my hours at work in the coming weeks to allow time to sort the other part of the jigsaw and pass my driving test and pack up things. It sure a great deal all going on all at once and one wonders if I have bitten off more than I can chew but I think somehow it will come right.

I have had my eye on another Trader - a year younger and with 500HP Yanmars with only 560hrs on. I am getting the increasing feeling these boats are a bit niche and there are a number on the market at wildly varying prices but do not seem to sell too quickly. It is not a 'cool' boat or a 'young man’s' boat. I am fine with issues on boats and sorting them but I simply do not want to take on engineering problems.

Sure somethings do break and cause issues, but I don’t want something that has a number of niggles even if they are not singularly a breakdown causing problem, but combined take away faith and confidence in the boat and leave me chasing faults instead of enjoying the boat.