Changes On Diesel Boats?

[Andrewcook]

Hi all have you notice about the changes on Diesel Cars from 2040  will this effect Boats? Many years ago they were Petrol then change to Diesels  now will this New Technology will be Electric Cruisers on the Broads in the Future? As theses Manufactures are replacing Diesel Cars for Electric Cars from 2040? What effect will this have for Boating industries? Including the Cruisers on the Norfolk Broads now?

Andrew Cook   

[ChrisB]

Who can tell where technology will be in 2040. 

23 years ago it was 1994. Windows 95 was coming, who had or could even afford a digital camera? Phones had only recently been made to fit the pocket and could make a phone call, that is all.

There are a lot of boats already offering a hybrid means of propulsion but going forwards my money says Hydrogen and solid Oxide Fuel Cells have a lot of potential. As a half way house Propane fed fuel cells could also have a place.

As for The Broads, given the right infastructure  and considering the very small distances in an enclosed waterway pure plug in electrics would be OK given the advances in battery technology now being seen on our roads and inproving year on year.

[grendel]

without a change in technology I think diesel will be around for a while, all plant will still run on it, mostly due to safety issues (you dont want to be storing petrol on site) and electric wont keep site machinery running day in day out.

[Wussername]

8 minutes ago, grendel said:

without a change in technology I think diesel will be around for a while, all plant will still run on it, mostly due to safety issues (you dont want to be storing petrol on site) and electric wont keep site machinery running day in day out.

I'm inclined to agree with you Grendel. Also the cost and challenges of installation throughout the Broads would appear to be impossible to achieve.

However I do believe that in a short period of time perhaps even prior to the overall acceptance of electric vehicles that the running of diesel engines whilst stationery for a long period of time, albeit by coach, bus, lorry, car or boat for whatever reason, will be viewed the same as people who smoke in enclosed public places.

And will attract the same reaction.

[ChrisB]

I meant to add but edit time ran out that if road travel can break two very important milestones the takeup of electrics will be huge.

The UK is very different from other countries where E travel has taken off. They are either very small or vast like the US. The US loved the car in the 50s and part of the 60s, folk travelled vast distances, but jet travel took over and the car is a local tool hence vehicles like the leaf sell reall well.

In this country we still like our car for holidays, business and distance. Assuming that there is infastructure in place the two milestones to pass are 300 miles that is say London to Penzance and 400 miles london to Edinburgh. 

If this happens then the technology will filter into other area. A relation has an electric scrambler  motor cycle I think it is a KSR an he loves it.

[Timbo]

Like any new technology Andrew, it will take its time to filter through into general usage. What the hire fleets are looking for in a propulsion system is not necessarily what your average boater, hirer, eco-warrior, Health and Safety Womble, dockyard matey or politician are after.  

I've been at the helm of RT with her diesel running and jumped out of my skin with the racket from Barnes new electric powered monster coming out of its moorings astern of us.

The hire fleets need a power unit that is cheap to buy, runs for ever, easy to maintain with cheap readily available spares.
As for Royal Tudor, I will be sticking with her 1.5 BMC Navigator Diesel Engine.

[Cheesey]

It's a conversation we are having on sea forums.

Since most marine engines are based on plant engines, there won't be a shortage of base engines.

Probably a rise in electronics controlling them like the car industry use. Much tighter operating conditions.

All electric hybrid vessels still need a diesel generator to recharge them and all electric boats can be a major hazard if you fail reach a recharging station.

Sailing is the hybrid system I prefer.

[ChrisB]

3 hours ago, Cheesey said:

 

Sailing is the hybrid system I prefer.

Absolutely! 

[Malanka]

20 30/40 is the sale of diesel vehicles (specifically cars) this will be met if the technology is available at a reasonable cost if not it simply wont happen. This is not the use by date. The shift from petrol to diesel was politically driven not technology driven, this change is also politically driven. The thing that bothers me is the provision for massive increase in peak demand from the grid without due thought as to how this will actually be met. Politicos of every stripe have ignored sensible energy policy for years and now they want to use a system for electirc vehicles that isnt ready and wont be ready in 2040 without massive spending on infrastructure projects we dont have the money for. Germany is spending Billions and Billions (many billions) connecting their wind farms to the grid to distribute the elctricity to where its used. Diesel will be around for many years to come as will petrol engines well past the 2040 date- I live in Switzerland that has one of the most amazing public transport systems in the world. I dont need a car but I have one because i like driving and it turns off at the lights. (its the law here) Its fun but the idea that the millions of vehicles in the uk and elsewhere are all going to be replaced by shiny new electric vehicles in my lifetime is a fantasy not backed by any science whatsoever.

We didnt stop using tallow lamps because politicians told us to, we did that because someone invented a better way. Technology will produce a better way than cars but not because someone forces it. But because a genius says oooh thats a good idea. Pay the eggheads to play with ideas dont strap them to the idea of a pre determined solution (political style)

 

If someone invents a storage system that actually works for cost  (not the subsidized Tezla nonesense) then that will be it.  Standard replaceable batteries that can be swapped out at swapping stations is the way forward IMO.  That would work now actually if we could just get all the car companies to cooperate... Still waiting.

 

M

 

[MauriceMynah]

I might be talking nonsense here and please correct me if I am BUT...

If I buy a second hand car, it is fairly likely that it's previous owner has "up-graded" and that somewhere along the line a new car has been purchased.

If someone buy's a new car then at least one fifth of the purchase price is tax.

If the government tells me (and all other owners of diesel cars) to get rid of my old car, the demand for new cars will increase.

The government is in line for a magnificent windfall tax gain.

 

Was that all rubbish or not?

[ChrisB]

There is also a nature science flaw in wind generation, probably not so much around our sceptred isle but certainly true of continental land based farms.

That is high atmospheric pressure in summer months means hot weather = lots of air conditioning.

High atmospheric pressure in winter months means cold weather = lots of heating

But high atmosperic pressure is accompanied by light or calm winds.

 

[CambridgeCabby]

What I can't understand is that , we live on an island two tides a day , huge amounts of predictable regular energy which isn't harvested , plus the building of wave turbines would also ease excessive erosion (provided they are situated correctly)

[Malanka]

True MM but why do you think people can afford to pay for an electric vehicle in the first place. The cost is heavily subsidised, not hybrid ones but pure leccy. Up to the first 80,000 vehicles any way( from each manufacturer)

The subsidy is way more than the 20% tax most of which goes to the EU anyway. That's where the VAT goes.

In the US The pay pal geek is into the US governement for 6.5 Billion dollars for just 85000 teslas plus his other projects. Tesla US has just sold that magic number and Trump is pulling the plug on further subsidies for high priced virtue signaling for the wealthy..

 

Will be interesting to see if California steps in and takes up the gauntlet for the subsidy (state is basically bankrupt) If not will be an interesting time for new Tesla buyers. (10,000 dollars each extra to find on the model S)

[Malanka]

The cost of tidal Barages is stupendously huge. Makes Hinkley point look like a bag of sweeties. Besides I'm sure some newts or sea horses may get disrupted. The best place to go ask about off shore developments is Denmark. See how many new ones they are building you may get a surprise with all the UK publicity about how low cost offshore generation now is...

 

M

[MauriceMynah]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nuclear Power is the way forwards. Warts 'n all.

[CambridgeCabby]

25 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nuclear Power is the way forwards. Warts 'n all.

Bio fuel surely , unless you've found a supplier of used chip fat with a long half life 

[LondonRascal]

I know things have been hard for high end boat builders in recent years but what seems to happen is any advances in technology so far as engines, efficiency or new thinking does not come from the boat builders. I wonder what may be if an 'outsider' came to the industry with an 'Apple' type vision whereby the boat builder create it all from the engine, to the interior, to the heating etc etc. Let's face it Elon Musk is doing so much and creating change because he brings some excitement and 'distribution' to things and after all it is not his money at risk but investors can't seem to stop funding his ideas.  I guess you could say it has even made governments change their views whereby Tesla seems the shining example all others should follow and sweep aside the issues such as the massive impact all these batteries will have on the environment.

If there is a range of new large engines in Volvo’s line up this is not because of the marine division suddenly investing in huge R&D on new engines, but further up the supply chain as their plant and lorry engines have had to ‘clean up’ and become more efficient.

The fact is, while there are a lot of boats out there in the worlds Marina’s they do an awful lot of going nowhere so collectively their emissions surly would not account for much.

What bothers boat owners more than the gases coming out their exhaust is fuel economy. If there was a viable way to reduce this – perhaps though a part electric/diesel drive it would go down a boon – you could have an awful lot of power stored in large format Lithium cells in a boat, and think about this what Marina does not have electric hook up?  

So perhaps there is room for innovation in this area whereby the average 35ft sports cruiser that sleeps 4 could have a large electric motor to drive the propellers  linked to a smaller diesel engine/generator.  I say smaller, it would still have to be a few hundred horsepower but it would not have to run constantly and for short fast hops would it be needed at all? If you could get something to do the magic 30Knts that seem to sell faster boats, have a range of say 60 Nm on electric alone would people mind?

They could increase range with the engine running, but the point would be for the average short hop the recreational boater does they could arrive at a visitor berth in the Marina they have travelled to, plug in and re-charge their batteries. The real issue is the sheer cost of making this happen, compared to the tried and tested duel ending set up we are all so used to.

The only space that is innovating is the outboard motor sector where even larger ‘engines’ are going electric.

I think the larger worrying problem is when you have Governments set on making Diesels these horrible, planet destroying machines and setting us on a path to their demise by a set date, it does beg the question what about boats? Imagine if you reach 2040 and it has been an overwhelming success and there are more electric vehicles on the road, more small effect little petrol buzz boxes and the Government says that this should now extend to recreational boats – and by say 2060 only large commercial craft could have Diesel engines and all others either change, scrap or don’t use.  I know it sounds farfetched, but I don’t think many would have guessed that a government would be planning to ban diesel cars from cities 30 years ago so you can never say never.

 

[Malanka]

Like it Robin.

Lets follow the logic, politicians promote the use of diesels as they produce less CO2 per unit mileage. This is true, however they then ignore all scientific evidence contrary and superceeding that fact, NO2 and particulates paricularly. OK so this produces the situtaion of high NO2 and particle levels toxic to heatlth in cities (who'd have thunk it) . So now the idea is to ban the thing they promoted in the first place and it's the same guys doing the banning as did the promoting. Hubris anyone...??????

 

The promoting came along from an EU commission directive by the way...Many scientists opposed it as a stupid idea as they produce more NO2 and particles. The scientific consultation that accompanied that particular directive was ignored due to the benefit of the CO2 argument which is true. However it's wasn't and isn't the whole story, nature doesn't work in linear lines and single this does that ways. I had rather hoped they were seeing the error of their ways, but the headlong rush to use an immature technology at the tax payers expense just takes ones breath away.

 

As I said before two scientists in the whole of the commons...Both of whom have been villified for daring to use their brains rather than tow the line. (as set forth by the oxbridge PPE club)

[TheQ]

I think IF the electric cars come along by 2040, And they do something about diesel commercial vehicles. Then  the biggest problem is going to be obtaining fuel. The Diesel fuel distribution system will be almost gone and then getting fuel for Boat Diesels will become hugely expensive..

[Malanka]

As I said before that's just the cut off date for selling new ones there will remain millions of petrol and diesel vehicles in place for decades after that date.

 

Where there is a market for diesel someone will provide it. The issue will be cost not availability. As in many things supply will match the demand, only by reducing demand does the supply dry up. Petrol and diesel are by-products of the production of alkanes, high grade lubricants and all sorts of other exotic stuff that we need in society from fossil fuels (oil) it doesn't just go away if we stop using it. It will still be collected, it has to be otherwise you can get the other stuff we need. The evidence of non joined up thinking is clear for all to see. Where is all this stuff going to go? Same place the unicorn farts go I suppose.

[grendel]

there are still garages where you can buy leaded petrol - for a price.

diesel at least can be home brewed from chip fat, bio diesel being slightly cleaner than the normal variety.

I dont see petrol becoming a replacement for diesel on boats though due to the storage and heavy vapour problems associated with it, the marine authorities would just quote health and safety when it came to banning diesel.

Price for price wave energy is very expensive - even when compared with offshore wind farms, and every time it is mentioned it stirs up the environmentalists and  such as it might alter the sea bed environment.

electric hook up at Marinas - well there wont be any fast charging - thats for certain, the electrical infrastructure is not there to provide enough power.

[ChrisB]

The last time we had all that silly no fuel business you could still get leaded fairly easily. I never had  a problem I used my wife's Mercedes 190E. It could run on both so I went to the head of the line and filled with leaded.

[Malanka]

I remember that I was issued witha special card by the authorities which enabled me to go to the front of the queue and fill up to the brim. Had an old mondeo and the look on folks faces as I trundled up in this beaten up old thing and went straight to the front was priceless. (thats was due to my job)

 

M

[TheQ]

9 minutes ago, Malanka said:

I remember that I was issued witha special card by the authorities which enabled me to go to the front of the queue and fill up to the brim. Had an old mondeo and the look on folks faces as I trundled up in this beaten up old thing and went straight to the front was priceless. (thats was due to my job)

 

M

I had similar, I went for a passport to Peterbrough just after a strike by the staff.  The queues were out of the door, I went straight to the door showed a piece of paper and was escorted straight in. I was out again in 15 minutes...

 Just like the piece of paper I used to carry, but never had to use, it's meaning roughly was Dear Mister Police Man help this man if he requests it / do as he says (there were telephone numbers and contact details on the paper).

[Malanka]

Nothing wrong with being a spook...Thats not what I was though..Medical business..