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National Park? Does It Matter?


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The 'lie factor' is relevant, let me explain. I was at a staff and member briefing at BA H.Q. when the BA CEO, John Packman, instructed us and BA staff to call the Broads 'The National Park', explaining that that was in order that the term should gain acceptance. That was despite the fact that the Broads National Park Bill had failed in Parliament and despite the fact that DEFRA was adamant that the Broads is not an N.P. The 'Lie' clearly being used as a means of undermining the will of Parliament, that can't be right.  A case of attempting to 'gently, gently, catch the monkey'? I'm sure that it is.
 


I don’t doubt that it is important.
What I’m saying is that when you first ask what the issue is and you just hear that it’s a lie it seems petty.
The issue isn’t that someone may be lying. The issue is that someone is potentially trying to sneak legislation through by lying.
Perhaps I’m alone but when I kept hearing “they’re lying” my thoughts were “who cares?” It’s only now I understand a little more what may be happening I care.
Do I care someone is being dishonest? Not really.
Do I care the Broads may become a “real” National Park? Too bloody right I do!
To be blunt only saying it’s a lie and refusing to discuss it further is going to alienate people who are new to the issue but might actually care and help.


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Are there any examples of, since the broads being given status equivalent to a national park, legislation which has come in which is detrimental to the well being of the place?

All I see is more boats, (and bigger ones than previous), more fisherman, cleaner water etc.

Genuine question, as nobody wants to lose the broads as it is , any more than me.

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Having worked with the National Parks in the UK and abroad for many years before my recent retirement, I can confirm it's not really news to them. 

Did anyone else as a kid have one of those younger siblings that kept pestering you and your mates to join your gang? There you are on your Raleigh Chopper and he's toodling along behind you on his 'Wombles' tricycle with 'none of the gear and no idea' and you have to keep him with you 'cos your mum gave you a one pound note for pocket money and half of it was your brother's? That's the relationship the BA have with the National Parks.

20 minutes ago, Wonderwall said:

Are there any examples of, since the broads being given status equivalent to a national park, legislation has come in which is detrimental to the well being of the place?

Good question! I think it's more a case of what attempts at getting legislation passed and attempted misdirection get foiled by folks like Jenny Morgan keeping a close eye on what is going on.

The great shame of Mr Packman making a mad dash for NP status like some poor bloke with the trots looking for a vacant cubicle is that he's totally forgotten what the Broads are in actuality. The Broads are so much more than a National Park. Until the Authority accepts the Broads for what they are, they will never be in a position to manage them effectively for the good of all. It's also quite noticeable that they don't understand the National Park concept either.

 

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The cleaner water has little to do with it being the broads, NP or  no NP, and much more  to with national / EU legislation on cleaner waters..

The More boats has a lot to do with the general increase in prosperity since the BA came into being (yes I know it's a bit Carp at the moment). Also think it has a lot to do with fibreglass. They need nowhere near as much maintenance as woodies, so more people are prepared to buy something that can sit in the water doing nothing.

The larger boats is just consumer demand for home comforts they just don't want to rough it any more.. again NP or no NP makes no difference.

More Fishermen, that is also due to more leisure time, more spare cash and the cleaner waters..

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Dont forget that to 'Maintain Navigation' as part of the BA's remit they are supposed to reach the following

 

The Authority’s Sediment Management Strategy 2007 sets out the ‘ideal waterway specifications’ in terms of depths. These vary across the network from 1.5 metres to 2.4 metres below mean low water springs.

 

So next time you run aground just ask yourself whether there is 1.5 metres of water below you at mean low water. Then you can decide whether navigation is being maintained appropriately

 

 

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I remember when the idea of a NP was first mooted and in strict fairness, this was before the Broads Authority was ever created!

It was the BA however, who picked up the ball and ran with it.

 I was against this idea from the start, for reasons I have just stated and looking back over those years, I don't suppose it has actually made any difference, in view of so many other factors that have affected the Broads in the last 40 years.

My fear, however, is for how this could now affect the Broads, if they were to be handed over to the National Park "family".

Especially if, as PW believes, it were to be done through the back door by cunning bits of marketing. Don't forget, these people in so much assumed authority, are not elected.

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Pray tell. How do you "sneak through" legislation?

Perhaps some deluded civil servant, bemused by all the lies he/she has heard will accidentally add it to the bottom of the bill establishing National parks.

Tosh/ Or LIES as you like to say.

This is the nub of things - can anyone tell me HOW this will be done. I believe it is inconceivable that it will happen and I can see no mechanism by which it could happen. 

Over to you.

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I am not a constitutional expert. However, after every budget we are given a list of "detail" that wasn't actually spelt out at the time.After every major event (the next royal wedding) certain newspapers have people trawling through things that had been announced whilst minds were elsewhere.

I answer to the original question. It matters to me.

It may also matter to others who live in the area, as it was recently reported that houses in National Parks are worth more than those in other areas. This does not include me.

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I do not wish to join in the whys and wherefores but a certain Mr Gove who imho is the ultimate "snake in the grass" has promised a much higher green agenda after the EU is abandoned. I would be concerned what can be hidden under a Brexit agenda not just for this topic but for numerous others. This whole business with Europe has brought about a lack of transparency not seen since WW11.

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No Bill, you are right - it cannot be "sneaked" through. It would require a whole new Bill for it to happen but its no good repeating the arguments for those who don't want to hear.

Just put it down to the time of year, or people stuck in because of the cold weather and not wishing to move far away from the computer being the reason why this is being resurrected yet again for the umpteenth time!!! 

Like me, if I were you, I would let the usual culprits go on about what might happen, whilst you and me and a few others go into denial too, and in reality at the end of the day none of us really know!

However I shall keep watch from afar and add my bit if things really do change!!

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Just put it down to the time of year, or people stuck in because of the cold weather and not wishing to move far away from the computer being the reason why this is being resurrected yet again for the umpteenth time!!! 


Actually, it was resurrected yet again because I was interested to learn about the situation.
Sorry.
Here’s me thinking a Norfolk Broads forum would be a forum to discuss the Norfolk Broads (JOKE)


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53 minutes ago, marshman said:

No Bill, you are right - it cannot be "sneaked" through. It would require a whole new Bill for it to happen but its no good repeating the arguments for those who don't want to hear.

Just put it down to the time of year, or people stuck in because of the cold weather and not wishing to move far away from the computer being the reason why this is being resurrected yet again for the umpteenth time!!! 

Like me, if I were you, I would let the usual culprits go on about what might happen, whilst you and me and a few others go into denial too, and in reality at the end of the day none of us really know!

However I shall keep watch from afar and add my bit if things really do change!!

And a happy Black Friday week to you too!

It is perfectly reasonable for JohnK to ask his question on this forum and I for one, have given him valid answers. What is more I am not "stuck in by the cold weather". It's lovely here today!

If I were you, JohnK, I would not let one of the "usual culprits" take the taste off your wish to know more about the Broads, its recent history, or its hopes for the future.

 

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To me the original post was a straight forward question and if some think its all been done before then do be it , but this is a discussion forum and member's are entitled to ask a question regardless of what others may think please do not try to stifle discussion  if certain members don't wish to join in then that's entirely up to them they are not under any obligation , it  should not however have   have any bearing on others being allowed to discuss within TOS .

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6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

And a happy Black Friday week to you too!

It is perfectly reasonable for JohnK to ask his question on this forum and I for one, have given him valid answers. What is more I am not "stuck in by the cold weather". It's lovely here today!

If I were you, JohnK, I would not let one of the "usual culprits" take the taste off your wish to know more about the Broads, its recent history, or its hopes for the future.

 

Well said :default_beerchug:

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5 hours ago, batrabill said:

Pray tell. How do you "sneak through" legislation?

Perhaps some deluded civil servant, bemused by all the lies he/she has heard will accidentally add it to the bottom of the bill establishing National parks.

Tosh/ Or LIES as you like to say.

This is the nub of things - can anyone tell me HOW this will be done. I believe it is inconceivable that it will happen and I can see no mechanism by which it could happen. 

Over to you.

That's an easy one Bill. It's called Parliamentary Opinio juris. It basically runs like this.
"Please, Mr/Mrs Secretary of State, our recent application to become a National Park. The common belief of the citizenry is that we are a National Park, ha ha...fancy that you'd think someone deliberately ran a marketing campaign, therefore, we should be legally defined as one don't you think?"
"Well..."
"It was on a quiz show an everything.Just sign here to say you agree....oh look a precedent.

Just a case of if you say it often enough it must be true. The last two years of UK politics shows how well that works.

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3 hours ago, JohnK said:

 


Actually, it was resurrected yet again because I was interested to learn about the situation.
Sorry.
Here’s me thinking a Norfolk Broads forum would be a forum to discuss the Norfolk Broads emoji57.png (JOKE)


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I also wanted to know "what it was all about and does it matter".  I too was not aware that the subject had already been discussed before and  would like to thank those that took the time and trouble to reply to my questions rather than refer me to earlier threads.

I would add that before my postings  I had done some research before making the comment "half of BA fundings was from a National Park grant"; this came from BA's Annual Accounts 2016/2017, Actual General & Navigation Income & Expenditure, Appendix 1.

Quote" National Park Grant £3,243,802"   

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8 hours ago, Wonderwall said:

Are there any examples of, since the broads being given status equivalent to a national park, legislation which has come in which is detrimental to the well being of the place?

All I see is more boats, (and bigger ones than previous), more fisherman, cleaner water etc.

Genuine question, as nobody wants to lose the broads as it is , any more than me.

In fact the suggestion that the Broads has been given status equivalent to that of a national park is nothing short of misleading bluster, in official terms it hasn't been given such status. The Broads has its own unique legislation. Yes, there are similarities but it ends there. If the status was the same then the Broads would already be an NP but it isn't. The Broads is the Broads and long may they remain so. Only one person has claimed that the Broads has been given status equivalent to a national park, the same one who has imposed the title by way of manipulating reality.

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8 hours ago, Wonderwall said:

Are there any examples of, since the broads being given status equivalent to a national park, legislation which has come in which is detrimental to the well being of the place?

All I see is more boats, (and bigger ones than previous), more fisherman, cleaner water etc.

Genuine question, as nobody wants to lose the broads as it is , any more than me.

WW, there are well documented examples of the BA attempting to close Horsey during the winter,  of withholding dredging at Hickling albeit it is now doing so, of appalling and unfair planning policies and decisions and of money that has been spent on projects other than that for which they were granted. It is well worth researching the consultation documents in regard to the Broads Bill and the Broads National Park Bill and the Bills themselves after which the intentions of the Authority will become abundantly clear.

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3 hours ago, Timbo said:

That's an easy one Bill. It's called Parliamentary Opinio juris. It basically runs like this.
"Please, Mr/Mrs Secretary of State, our recent application to become a National Park. The common belief of the citizenry is that we are a National Park, ha ha...fancy that you'd think someone deliberately ran a marketing campaign, therefore, we should be legally defined as one don't you think?"
"Well..."
"It was on a quiz show an everything.Just sign here to say you agree....oh look a precedent.

Just a case of if you say it often enough it must be true. The last two years of UK politics shows how well that works.

I have been searching for a while for any evidence that Opinio Juris is a method used in the U.K. to change primary legislation but I have been unable to find any. This may be because I don’t know where to look. I have read a number of pieces about the principle in International law where people are trying to resolve disputes between nation states with conflicting interests. What is clear from those is that Opinio Juris goes way beyond “accepted practice”.

You probably have greater knowledge than me so perhaps you can help by pointing to a relevant or similar precedent?

It would be quite suprising if UK primary legislation was changed because something was on The Chase. 

 

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Bill, this link might help, then again it might not! 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=csrMCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA66&dq=opinio+juris+equivalent+in+British+law&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4yKz2r-LXAhVFJ8AKHfXwAwMQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=opinio juris equivalent in British law&f=false

It will take an Act of Parliament in order for the Broads to become a national park, I suspect that we are all agreed on that point, but I have no doubts whatsoever that that is 'the vision', the final ambition. 

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Hi Bill, I'm away from my books at the minute, but I will have a look through for a reference for you when I get back to them. As JM says it will take an act of parliament to change the BA to a National Park. But that is not always as secure as it seems. I'm trying to tread carefully here around forum rules in my explanation.



 

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Can I just say that I have found this interesting and thank-you JohnK for posting it.

 

We don't always know what subjects we will find interesting until they appear in front of us so search isn't really an option if you don't know what to search for. Couple that with the fact that even if you do know what to search for most forum search engines are pretty dire.

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7 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Bill, this link might help, then again it might not! 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=csrMCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA66&dq=opinio+juris+equivalent+in+British+law&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4yKz2r-LXAhVFJ8AKHfXwAwMQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=opinio juris equivalent in British law&f=false

It will take an Act of Parliament in order for the Broads to become a national park, I suspect that we are all agreed on that point, but I have no doubts whatsoever that that is 'the vision', the final ambition. 

Once again a reference to International Law. Not UK law?

So really a Bill has to be introduced - not just a nod and a wink. 

Something that is virtually inconceivable in the current climate. So, basically impossible.

 

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