Webasto And Batteries - New(ish) Owner Question

[Ray]

Our boat is a Hampton Safari mk3 and to help with answering my question -  when we are out we cruise until we drop :) at least 6 hours per day. We have 2 batteries and turn off the engine one once we moor for the night. Our domestic battery is not called on much at all, once moored for the night just cabin lights and fridge, anything like charging phones is done while cruising, we have no TV, microwave etc.

I often see references to running engines and using the heater and there is an assumption, quite correctly, that everyone knows what is meant by phrases like "hire craft run their engines because they are told to"

It turns out that my better half feels the cold more than I and would quite like to run the heater for an hour or half hour at bed time and again first thing in the morning, I can't imagine I would have any battery capacity problems with this, unless I'm missing something. Am I missing something?

I should add that by far we prefer and search out wild moorings where we are away from civilization, if any other boats were around we would not, of course, run anything at unsocial hours.

[grendel]

Ray, As I understand it the Webasto takes quite a high current to start, on some battery banks you need to run the engine while you start the heater to get enough power to start it, if it will start without, it should be fine running for a couple of hours. If you do need to run the engine to get it to fire, you might need to carry on running for 10-15 minutes to replace the charge, but that should give you a few hours running.

[finny]

On our Hampton Ray we had one dedicated cranking battery 90amp and two 120 amp leisure batteries and never had any problem firing up the warm air system. personally i think even with all that running time you could  be a tad light on the battery front any warm air system wacks the batteries from a cold start which is why the yards tell them to run the engine 

finny    

[Vaughan]

From what you say, you need another domestic battery, so that you have two in parallel, and another for the engine. An electric fridge needs one domestic battery of at least 100 Amp/hours, all on its own. So you need another one for the lights, the water pump and the heater.

If you have enough battery capacity you should be able to run the heater all evening, and next morning, with no problem.

[Ray]

I see! Many thanks, I can see now why the advice is given to run the engine! Looks like I'll be adding a leasure battery!

[NorfolkNog]

Grendel is right, the heater takes more current on start up but once running I think its pretty much just the fan. I can only speak for my experience with hire boats (quite extensive in winter).

I think yards are a bit over cautious with this engine running bit. I think they just want to avoid being called out!

I can't see that there should be a problem but it will depend of course on your batteries, type of alternator etc but given the running you do, there shouldn't be a problem I would have thought. We have had the heating running for several hours on occasions without the engine and not had any issues.

PS - sorry just seen the other replies, yes another leisure battery sounds like a good plan!

[finny]

if you are north based Ray nip into Boulters at Horning let them have a look at your current charging set up 

finny

[Ray]

I am based at Potter and know Boulters, very helpful and have called in a couple of times! Good idea, I'll do that!

[Guest]

On our Safari we have 300ah of domestic batteries, plus a car type starter battery protected by a VSR (voltage sensitive relay)

We have a mix of conventional and LED lighting, TV/DVD, radio/CD, 12v fridge (danfloss type) and an D2 diesel heater.

[finny]

3 minutes ago, Ray said:

I am based at Potter and know Boulters, very helpful and have called in a couple of times! Good idea, I'll do that!

Thats what i did Ray - that said i ended up getting them to re wire and re battery the system for a warm air system - which they fitted and a new 12 volt fridge whilst it was there - good job good price - no drama 

fiiny 

[BrundallNavy]

I have two 110v batteries on Nipper. One for the engine and one domestic. The domestic one runs a fridge, lights, water pump and tv. I have a newish MV airo heater that will happily start and run without starting the engine and as the controller is by my bunk I flick it on around 30 mins before getting up in the morning. If the batteries are in good condition and well looked after it won’t be a problem. I don’t understand why people feel the need to constantly run engines when moored I think it’s more to do with educating people to “your on a boat not at home” so use the power available with care. 

Doug. 

[NorfolkNog]

4 hours ago, brundallNavy said:

I think it’s more to do with educating people to “your on a boat not at home” so use the power available with care

The hire companies should frame that! Sound advice 

[vanessan]

I think we are back to what some hirers expect - home from home.

Ray, well done for looking after your other half. I feel the cold more than my husband does and that half hour with the heating on when it is chilly makes all the difference. The only time we have ever had a problem was when the batteries were nearing their end of life. Other than that one time we have never had to run the engine to start the heating. 

[Ray]

40th anniversary later this year and I understand I'm still on probation 

[Meantime]

16 hours ago, grendel said:

Ray, As I understand it the Webasto takes quite a high current to start, on some battery banks you need to run the engine while you start the heater to get enough power to start it, if it will start without, it should be fine running for a couple of hours. If you do need to run the engine to get it to fire, you might need to carry on running for 10-15 minutes to replace the charge, but that should give you a few hours running.

If you need to run the engine to start the heater then very simply you have a problem somewhere. The heater has a glow plug which does draw a higher current during the start up phase, but think about it, so does the main engine. The main engine has four glow plugs that you normally use to pre heat the engine for a couple of seconds before then drawing a massive current to turn the engine over. How come we are never advised to start a generator before attempting to start the engine? Well firstly I'm being facetious and secondly the hire yards make sure the engine battery is well maintained as they don't want to be called out. If the domestic batteries and capacity and charging systems were similarly maintained there would be no need for the advise to start the engine when starting the heater.

The heater startup phase with the glow plug on lasts around 2 mins. After this the only current draw is from a fan and the diesel pump which is pulsed. This is the ticking noise you hear when the heater is running. Once the startup phase is complete the current draw is very insignificant, around 1A. The Mikuni heater glow plug is internally fused at 5A for 24V systems and 7.5A for 12V systems, so not a massive current draw when compared to the engine glow plugs.

If you do end up in the situation that you need to start the engine to start the heater then one or more of the following is wrong, in no particular order.

1. Batteries at the end of their life or need topping up with water and properly charging.

2. Charging system not fully recharging the batteries or not enough engine running to fully recharge.

3. Poor cable connections any where from the battery to the heater.

4, Cable run from the battery to the heater too long. Voltage drop meaning the voltage is too low for the heater to start. Running the engine raises the voltage to the charge level, but is only masking the true problem.

5. Cable from the battery to the heater to thin again leading to similar issues as number 4.

6. Heater needs an overhaul and service.

7. Glow plug needs replacing. 

There are probably a few more that I cannot think of at the moment, but basically if your setup is properly installed, adequately maintained and you have done enough cruising you will never need to start the engine to start the heater.

[Siddy]

Does this start the engine come from a few years ago before the extra's started getting put on board etc and extra batteries  i.e. electric fridge insead of gas & electric toilets.

I always try to turn the heater on in the morning before starting the engine and can't think back to when it's failed. Last week the lights dipped when you flushed the toilet but not when I turn the heating on so where is the current draw there.

[BrundallNavy]

1 hour ago, Siddy said:

Does this start the engine come from a few years ago before the extra's started getting put on board etc and extra batteries  i.e. electric fridge insead of gas & electric toilets.

I always try to turn the heater on in the morning before starting the engine and can't think back to when it's failed. Last week the lights dipped when you flushed the toilet but not when I turn the heating on so where is the current draw there.

Your obviously flushing the wiggly bits down the pan..

[LondonRascal]

Think of it like this, you run a hire fleet and each boat (lets just say for ease) has 4 batteries. You have 40 boats so 160 batteries even at a good deal of £50.00 each would cot you £8,000 to change - leave aside time and effort to do this. You have of course some in stock should the need arises to change out clearly knackered batteries, but before they get that bad what do you do?

Well, you know they will usually get the customers through the night so long as they don't use too much of anything - and make sure that fridge is set to number 2 to further conserve power. Then say it is only a boat fridge and can't do get as cold as a domestic one at home and setting it to 3 or 4 won't make much odds but will flatten your battery.  There is always an answer lol.

The customer then burns fuel to generate electricity by running the engine,  that you will in the long run 'sell them' since it comes form their fuel deposit. It is not very socially correct or environmentally friendly but it is how it is in some cases with some boats.

If I had made a fuss on Western Light about the engine needing to be run initially to get the heater to fire, I can guarantee you I would be told that is how some boats are. If I said then "well the heater goes off after 4 hours" it would then be said that this was to be expected, I certainly would not have an engineer out with replacement batteries.  indeed I was told on takeover to run the heater for no more than 2 hours without running the engine for (if memory serves) 20 minutes for every 2 hours of heater use.  E.g. they know there is an issues with some boats and the batteries but the running engine sorts it out even if only a short term fix, it not only is easy it makes them a few quid.

It is of course not only hire boats, look at Trixie - the batteries had been put in the boat in Chertsey - from when she was on the River Thames in 2009. She moved to the Broads in 2014. I changed the batteries finally in 2018. 9 years and by the time I got them changed they were dry and about as good as nothing at all. But if you only use your boat for the odd day trip, maybe overnight these things tend not to be at the top of the to do list. In my mind it is right up there with keeping the engine in fine working order as it makes life onboard so much more comfortable.

 

[Meantime]

As Robin describes it is pure economics that drives the hire yards into not maintaining their boats and the battery and charging systems properly, and additionally some private owners.

Perhaps it is time for the BA to introduce a byelaw that specifically prohibits the running of engines at moorings for more than the few minutes needed when departing a mooring. A £100 penalty for failing to comply with the byelaw would soon focus the hire yards and owners attention to fixing their systems and ensuring peace and quiet for all.

The BA has aspirations on becoming a National Park. A National Park should be a place of peace and tranquillity. Time the BA got some of the basics right first and the byelaws in place to make the place somewhere resembling a National Park, rather than just somewhere pretending to be a National Park, and whilst there're at it, they should sort out the rubbish problem at the same time.

Spend some resources on restoring the peace and quiet, and cleaning up the rubbish, then worry about pretending to be a National Park.

[Vaughan]

35 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

it is pure economics that drives the hire yards into not maintaining their boats and the battery and charging systems properly, and additionally some private owners.

As you have already said that you are not involved in the business I will excuse that remark although I resent it.

This has little or nothing to do with the poor maintenance that you so freely allege. A modern hire boat does not run on gas any more. The only thing left there is the cooker, while the fridge is now electric and the heating is diesel/electric. The fridge requires the capacity of one battery all to itself and so does a 12V TV. Most of those are now flat screen on 220V through an inverter. There are 2 and sometimes 3 electric toilets and don't even mention the microwave! Then there are all the laptops, etc, that have to be charged.

I have calculated that a modern 8 berth hireboat, without TV, will use around 230 amp/hours a day on domestics, compared to a traditional boat with gas appliances, which was about 75 amp/hours. As the Broads moorings are not properly equipped with shore power, all this has to be re-charged by the alternator.

So it takes at least 4 hours a day running the engine. It is as simple as that and cannot just be dismissed as shoddy maintenance.

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

As you have already said that you are not involved in the business I will excuse that remark although I resent it.

This has little or nothing to do with the poor maintenance that you so freely allege. A modern hire boat does not run on gas any more. The only thing left there is the cooker, while the fridge is now electric and the heating is diesel/electric. The fridge requires the capacity of one battery all to itself and so does a 12V TV. Most of those are now flat screen on 220V through an inverter. There are 2 and sometimes 3 electric toilets and don't even mention the microwave! Then there are all the laptops, etc, that have to be charged.

I have calculated that a modern 8 berth hireboat, without TV, will use around 230 amp/hours a day on domestics, compared to a traditional boat with gas appliances, which was about 75 amp/hours. As the Broads moorings are not properly equipped with shore power, all this has to be re-charged by the alternator.

So it takes at least 4 hours a day running the engine. It is as simple as that and cannot just be dismissed as shoddy maintenance.

Then surely it becomes about the design of the boat? Barnes for instance have used twin alternators for some time, and some private boats also have that setup. A member on here was recently talking about possibly fitting a second alternator to their boat.

The infrastructure is not there to provide shore power at all moorings and that isn't going to change any time soon. Perhaps the hire yards could contribute towards providing some additional posts? Especially those that build all electric boats.

I can understand that the move away from gas fridges has increased some load, but a second battery soon balances that need. I cannot understand the move away from gas ovens because electric ovens will either need a huge battery bank, or a generator running every time the kettle or cooker is turned on.

Again looking at design I have provided on my boat a number of USB charging points that run off 12V and can be used to charge phones, tablets etc. without the need for running an invertor to supply 240V which is inefficient. I like filtered coffee and on a recent trip to France found both 12V and 24V versions of a filter coffee maker at one of the motorway services. They also sold 12V and 24V kettles. The coffee maker was only £25 allowing for the exchange rate. These would make excellent alternatives to providing electric kettles on some of the modern hire craft, though I still think gas for cooking is the way forward.

Fitting decent LED light bulbs, warm white, rather than the harsh daylight white can save a huge amount compared to normal lightbulbs.

I can assure you my boat has gas only for the cooker. Everything else is run from battery. I have adapted and modified the systems over the years to keep up with my requirements and don't have to run the engine at moorings. I know it can be done, it is largely down to will and cost.

In terms of noise nuisance Barnes haven't always got it right, but I do respect the way they keep up with technology, try new things, embraced twin alternator setups 15 or more years ago. Their boats always seem to be the more technologically advanced of the ones I have seen on The Broads. A lot of their boats are under water silenced.

If the demands placed upon the electrical systems increase, then the number of batteries need to be increased, additionally they will need more maintenance and possibly earlier replacement, That may will end up being passed on to the hirer in increased build, or maintenance costs, but if they want all the mods cons, then someone has to pay for it, rather than the peace and quiet of the environment.  

[Bound2Please]

10 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Fitting decent LED light bulbs, warm white, rather than the harsh daylight white can save a huge amount compared to normal lightbulbs.

What sort plant does these light bulbs grow into ?????? or do we need light the lamps to see them starting to grow????

[Meantime]

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_bulb

Thought I'd keep it polite

[LondonRascal]

I agree with EastCoastIPA.

The fact is, if things change (and they have) so far as expectation and demand from hirers - who now often are paying eye watering sums for even a short break the old adage of it being a boat so 'what do you expect' has to go out the window along with the old incandescent and florescent lighting.

Let me talk about lights for one moment. I changed all the light bulbs on Independence to LED. An easy and cheap job. The old lamps were Halogen and 20w each. They not only were inefficient they acted as mini heaters causing a lot of heat energy to transfer into the light fitting and then into the surrounding head lining. I now have cool to the touch, 4w replacement bulbs I can leave on without worry.

So far as warm or cold light - it is about the colour temperature. In Asian countries they prefer a 'cold' white light this is also because they would often have had an old, very warm 'yellowish' incandescent light bulb hanging in the centre of their room. A new bright, crisp and cool white LED bulb looks so much more clean and modern. I suspect this explains why it is easier to obtain cheap 'cold white' LED's than warm white as they are all manufactured over in China. 

In the UK we have always gone for a more warm and 'cosy' light and it is why when we replaced our incandescent lights with Compact Florescent Lights (CFL's) at home they gave the same 'colour' light as the 40w incandescent bulbs they replaced. So generally, we as a country prefer this and find it more pleasing to the eye - I agree, since it does change the 'feel' and ambience of a room and the same goes for a boat.

If you have not changed your boats lighting to LED I would well advise you to - the bulbs are just a pound or two and make such a difference to lighting levels and power consumption. Contrary to what I have been told about running domestic LED bulbs on boats (where their voltage can be over 12v and they will not last as long because of this) I have never had issue with this. On Independence she is on constant connection to shore power and her DC voltage is about 13.7v the lights have all never given any issue neither have they on Broad Ambition and it is why I speced Trixie with the same too.

Back to hire boats - it should not be for the hirer to know the technicalities of how power is made, stored and used. They just want to turn on the light and hey presto it works - use the telly, run the satellite dome, plug in the Xbox etc. It is also the case that the boatyard who made the boat should not have the responsibly on their shoulders to over come this alone. It really needs a joined up approach with many parties from the Broads Authority, E.On and boatyards and it comes back to getting out of the idea of having something for nothing.

I personally would not mind one little bit if I could moor somewhere and pay for so doing if there were modern amenities were provided. Electric, Water, WiFi and rubbish collection for each boat moored for £10.00 a night I don't think is excessive. I've talked here about a smart mooring system before to collect payments, from private boaters and such ether accumulate and be paid upon toll renewal - or through an online account that you can pay as you moor. Hirers would pay a deposit and such moorings be deducted from that upon returning to the boatyard. I have talked to the Broads Authority about it and how this would automate toll collection along with penalties and through 'connected terminals' at moorings be able to show boaters out and about online which mooring locations had spaces available. All pie in the sky because it would cost so much to actually put in initially.

What could be done easily and sooner is that the electric posts should be smarter - they should accept contactless payment to credit them with funds. It would solve the card buying, and supply issues overnight and all the stuff needed to make it happen are readily available and not too expensive (notice how vending machines have additional hardware attached to them  to accept contactless payments for drinks and chocolate bars at Railway stations).