The Sandford Myth

[marshman]

Just to pick up on Alans post of "facts", there are at least two which are wrong!

The new patrol boats are very different to the old ones in that the ones sold had no toilet facilities on board ,whereas the newer ones do have them. I see nothing at all wrong with that - you cannot expect mixed crew out on longish patrol to always nip over the hedge.

And the Broads Forum has NOT been disbanded but will likely come back in a differing format - the existing format had become stale and it needed refreshing. Indeed it seemed at times that it was becoming an extension of some of the internet Forums with differing factions taking control. We shall have to see what the future brings but it is not an easy thing to do to engage with the general public - if you hold meetings and no one turns up it is relatively difficult to engage!

And then we come back to that hoary old chestnut about dredging the Lower Bure to let the water out - noone has any evidence that this would make any difference at all but what is a real concern and plenty of evidence to support it, is that tides are getting higher. So if the Lower Bure is getting bunged up, how is it that salt water surges are getting more and more common and every year the impacts are felt further and further upstream? Don't ask me I am not an oceanographer but the two don't seem to quite match up!!

[MauriceMynah]

Not just the lower Bure Marshman, the whole river, and the Thurn.

I wish I could remember the name of the moorings just up river from the BA ones in Yarmouth, but they're so badly silted it wouldn't be possible to use them for most of the tide these days, yet it wasn't that long ago they were useable.

You say no one has any evidence, I'd say the height at Potter bridge is pretty evident. If you think that's not as a result of silt, what DO you put it down to?

You don't see a link between the salt water surges and the lack of dredging? I think I do, but then again, I'm not an oceanographer either.

   

[dnks34]

Do you mean Marina Quays?

Could it be that successive tides push the salt further inland and because of the silt (which is very obvious in places on the Lower Bure) that the Bure never actually drains to its full potential and hasnt done for many years now, I couldn’t believe how much water there wasn’t last time I navigated the lower Bure at low tide.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

Do you mean Marina Quays?

Could it be that successive tides push the salt further inland and because of the silt (which is very obvious in places on the Lower Bure) that the Bure never actually drains to its full potential and hasnt done for many years now, I couldn’t believe how much water there wasn’t last time I navigated the lower Bure at low tide.

This is a photo of Marina Quays:

[Paul]

14 hours ago, batrabill said:

Does anyone have any idea what this means? It appears to be gibberish. Perhaps you can explain?

I understood it. Should I be worried?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Paul said:

I understood it. Should I be worried?

No

[MauriceMynah]

That's the one, Marina Quays, thank you..

Not enough water to moor there these days, and yes, I believe that it's that lack in the volume being the reason why the salt water surge is reaching higher up the rivers.

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, marshman said:

And the Broads Forum has NOT been disbanded but will likely come back in a differing format - the existing format had become stale and it needed refreshing. Indeed it seemed at times that it was becoming an extension of some of the internet Forums with differing factions taking control. We shall have to see what the future brings but it is not an easy thing to do to engage with the general public - if you hold meetings and no one turns up it is relatively difficult to engage!

 

Re the newly defunct Broads Forum and re differing factions taking control, ummmm, that's one way of looking at it. Another way well worth considering might being that Dr P is loosing control which seems to me to be long overdue.  My understanding is that certain factions have had enough and have made a stand, at last.

Re people not turning up to meetings, bit pointless when no one listens. It's all very well going through the motions of engaging with the public but a prerequiset is that ears and minds are open but famously they don't tend to be. 

Any doubt about what I'm saying then refer to the recent Peer Review.

'If you hold meetings and no one turns up it is relatively difficult to engage!' But if we do turn up and then the Dr doesn't really listen then it is nigh on impossible to engage, and I'm far from alone in that thought. Only listening to what you want to hear is a poor trait, especially for a chief executive. 

[JennyMorgan]

48 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

That's the one, Marina Quays, thank you..

Not enough water to moor there these days, and yes, I believe that it's that lack in the volume being the reason why the salt water surge is reaching higher up the rivers.

There is also a lack of water to flush the system. It was only when that fact finally sunk in that some effort was made to dredge Hicking. Previous to that it was excuse after excuse, anything to avoid dredging. Just my opinion, of course, but previous lack of action speaks for itself.

[rightsaidfred]

3 hours ago, marshman said:

And then we come back to that hoary old chestnut about dredging the Lower Bure to let the water out - noone has any evidence that this would make any difference at all but what is a real concern and plenty of evidence to support it, is that tides are getting higher. So if the Lower Bure is getting bunged up, how is it that salt water surges are getting more and more common and every year the impacts are felt further and further upstream? Don't ask me I am not an oceanographer but the two don't seem to quite match up!!

 

Quote

"Rake/agitation dredging work will be taking place by a contractor on behalf of the Broads Authority in the Lower Bure from Saturday 17 March 2018 to Thursday 29 March 2018. The work will be carried out at variable times, on the ebb tides between high slack water and low slack water during daylight hours."

I take it this was done then because they had nothing better to do or spend money on.

Fred

 

 

[BroadAmbition]

Do you know something?  I sometimes despair I really do especially on this topic of the Lower Bure dredging.

 

For those of us that can cast our minds back to the sixties and seventies when the then Gt Yarmouth Port commissioners looked after the Broads,  there were a pair of large tracked cranes on each side of the Bure below Acle Bridge.  They were there all year round on permanent duties of dredging the Lower Bure.  The method used was the time honoured grab bucket and chuckit onto the bank system.  The cranes did not operate 365 days a year but most of it and they were on station ready to commence action, they especially concentrated on the bends of the rivers. Hardly did one see a barge to transport the mud to another location.

Now the above paragraph is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact, one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and accepted as the norm

 

Over the years I have talked to quite a few genuine 'Broadsmen' (And yes sometimes Women too) that work and live around the Thurne / Bure system.  They have been on and around the water for decades, not just a few years.  They tell me that in those days passage under Potter Heigham bridge was the norm and only exceptionally high tides stopped craft from making the passage. Indeed the two side arches used to be boarded up to deter attempts from dinghys and the like attempting using the side arches.

This also is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and accepted as the norm

 

Then the Blessed Authority came into being the two regular crane dredgers disappeared  from their normal work stations.  Slowly but surely over the years the Lower Bure has silted up, especially on the corners.  You can witness this with your own eyes

This also is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and sadly had to accept as the norm

 

It's a 'happy coincidence' for the Blessed Authority that the then fairly new topic of global warming and rising sea levels came to their rescue.  Now they could and did and still do blame less head room at PHB on rising sea levels, this in their eyes 'Gets them off the hook' with regards to dredging the Lower Bure.  But because we have lost the power of the system being flushed out strongly enough like it used to do we witness silting in places like Hickling Broad, and even more so in GYA, even opposite the yellow posts and that hardly ever used to happen.

Those 'Broadsmen / Ladies' I mentioned earlier state it is not rockets science, dredge the Lower Bure and the balance that the northern Broads enjoyed for decades will return.  I for one agree with them.  And here's a thought.  Why not just dredge the Lower Bure, silted bends, Marina Keys, under the two bridges and opposite the yellow posts just the once.  Do it properly.  Then if it doesn't have a positive effect on the Upper Bure / Thurne, those Broadsmen will go and eat their hats and I'll join them.

Oh but hang on a moment, the cynic in me shouts that the Blessed Authority know full well what will happen if the Lower Bure is cleaned out, it will show up shallow water all over the Northerns that they should have been maintaining way before now and expose them to howls of complaints from owners / hirers, anglers, Local dwellers, businesses etc etc -  the whole shooting match and the Blessed Authority does not want that, they could not stand the heat.  The last thing they want is to act on maintaining what we have.  Nope, they want expensive follies like that proposed at Acle that the good Dr P. can have his name on a brass nameplate for time immemorially (Big Word)

There are still some that say, even possibly believe that ceasing of regular dredging of the Lower Bure is no proof of higher river levels at PHB.

Incredulously they even state there is no proof that ceasing of regular dredging of the lower Bure reducing the scavenging effect has caused the silting at Marina Keys, and down to the yellow post turning area.

There are still some that believe that a pair of Penguins walked from Antarctica to the middle east to board an Ark too, not to mention the flat earth society that meets every year travelling from around the globe

 

Here's the killer question for those who think / believe dredging the Lower Bure will have no positive impact on the Upper Bure / Thurne systems:-

Why did the Gya Port Commissioners spend year after year after year with dredgers on site ready to go when silting started to occur on the Lower Bure especially on the bends.  Just why did they do that if it would have had no positive impact?

Your Honour - My case is rested !

 

Griff

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Do you know something?  I sometimes despair I really do especially on this topic of the Lower Bure dredging.

 

For those of us that can cast our minds back to the sixties and seventies when the then Gt Yarmouth Port commissioners looked after the Broads,  there were a pair of large tracked cranes on each side of the Bure below Acle Bridge.  They were there all year round on permanent duties of dredging the Lower Bure.  The method used was the time honoured grab bucket and chuckit onto the bank system.  The cranes did not operate 365 days a year but most of it and they were on station ready to commence action, they especially concentrated on the bends of the rivers. Hardly did one see a barge to transport the mud to another location.

Now the above paragraph is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact, one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and accepted as the norm

 

Over the years I have talked to quite a few genuine 'Broadsmen' (And yes sometimes Women too) that work and live around the Thurne / Bure system.  They have been on and around the water for decades, not just a few years.  They tell me that in those days passage under Potter Heigham bridge was the norm and only exceptionally high tides stopped craft from making the passage. Indeed the two side arches used to be boarded up to deter attempts from dinghys and the like attempting using the side arches.

This also is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and accepted as the norm

 

Then the Blessed Authority came into being the two regular crane dredgers disappeared  from their normal work stations.  Slowly but surely over the years the Lower Bure has silted up, especially on the corners.  You can witness this with your own eyes

This also is not my opinion, it is not a theory it is plain and simple fact one countless visitors and locals have witnessed and sadly had to accept as the norm

 

It's a 'happy coincidence' for the Blessed Authority that the then fairly new topic of global warming and rising sea levels came to their rescue.  Now they could and did and still do blame less head room at PHB on rising sea levels, this in their eyes 'Gets them off the hook' with regards to dredging the Lower Bure.  But because we have lost the power of the system being flushed out strongly enough like it used to do we witness silting in places like Hickling Broad, and even more so in GYA, even opposite the yellow posts and that hardly ever used to happen.

Those 'Broadsmen / Ladies' I mentioned earlier state it is not rockets science, dredge the Lower Bure and the balance that the northern Broads enjoyed for decades will return.  I for one agree with them.  And here's a thought.  Why not just dredge the Lower Bure, silted bends, Marina Keys, under the two bridges and opposite the yellow posts just the once.  Do it properly.  Then if it doesn't have a positive effect on the Upper Bure / Thurne, those Broadsmen will go and eat their hats and I'll join them.

Oh but hang on a moment, the cynic in me shouts that the Blessed Authority know full well what will happen if the Lower Bure is cleaned out, it will show up shallow water all over the Northerns that they should have been maintaining way before now and expose them to howls of complaints from owners / hirers, anglers, Local dwellers, businesses etc etc -  the whole shooting match and the Blessed Authority does not want that, they could not stand the heat.  The last thing they want is to act on maintaining what we have.  Nope, they want expensive follies like that proposed at Acle that the good Dr P. can have his name on a brass nameplate for time immemorially (Big Word)

There are still some that say, even possibly believe that ceasing of regular dredging of the Lower Bure is no proof of higher river levels at PHB.

Incredulously they even state there is no proof that ceasing of regular dredging of the lower Bure reducing the scavenging effect has caused the silting at Marina Keys, and down to the yellow post turning area.

There are still some that believe that a pair of Penguins walked from Antarctica to the middle east to board an Ark too, not to mention the flat earth society that meets every year travelling from around the globe

 

Here's the killer question for those who think / believe dredging the Lower Bure will have no positive impact on the Upper Bure / Thurne systems:-

Why did the Gya Port Commissioners spend year after year after year with dredgers on site ready to go when silting started to occur on the Lower Bure especially on the bends.  Just why did they do that if it would have had no positive impact?

Your Honour - My case is rested !

 

Griff

Indeed the two side arches used to be boarded up to deter attempts from dinghys and the like attempting using the side arches.

I'm really pleased that you have stated this as I was beginning to doubt my memory; as kids and at low tides I'm sure I can recall passing through the smaller arches of PH Bridge

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Indeed the two side arches used to be boarded up to deter attempts from dinghys and the like attempting using the side arches.

I'm really pleased that you have stated this as I was beginning to doubt my memory; as kids and at low tides I'm sure I can recall passing through the smaller arches of PH Bridge

To clarify: In a normal hire boat rowing dinghy that is. 

[JennyMorgan]

Griff, you are right, wholly right and completely right.

Dredging is not just a navigation issue, it is also one of conservation and preservation thus should be financed, in part,  by funding other than just navigation. Indeed navigation funding should be used wholly for that purpose, not propping up government shortcomings and cutbacks.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

To Broad Ambition,  What an excellently put post, and good to see Maurice Mynah (John) knowing his facts, as i honestly believed the bridge at Potter Heigham was gradually sinking, due to the land mass in East Anglia sinking, a FACT that was proved by none other than Gryff Rhys Jones on one of his "Rivers" programmes, where he was with a Cambridge University scientist at a scientific station where a sort of "pole" which is buried extremely deeply into the Cambridgeshire fens, and shows how much the East Anglian land mass is sinking. Couple this up with the lack of dredging in the Bure, AND the mouth of the Bure (where you used to see coasters moored to the quay heading on the GY side imediately before the mouth of the Bure, and it does make you wonder?.

There is another thread on this forum "what would you pay extra tolls for", personally, i think i`d like to start a new thread titled "what lack of action would you request a tolls REFUND for".  I`d start it with Dredging first, moorings second, and refuse bins third?.

[BroadAmbition]

JM - I'm only sorry I can only 'Like' your post just the once, not to mention an emoticon thing for wholly agree

Griff

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

3 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Re the newly defunct Broads Forum and re differing factions taking control, ummmm, that's one way of looking at it. Another way well worth considering might being that Dr P is loosing control which seems to me to be long overdue.  My understanding is that certain factions have had enough and have made a stand, at last.

Re people not turning up to meetings, bit pointless when no one listens. It's all very well going through the motions of engaging with the public but a prerequiset is that ears and minds are open but famously they don't tend to be. 

Any doubt about what I'm saying then refer to the recent Peer Review.

'If you hold meetings and no one turns up it is relatively difficult to engage!' But if we do turn up and then the Dr doesn't really listen then it is nigh on impossible to engage, and I'm far from alone in that thought. Only listening to what you want to hear is a poor trait, especially for a chief executive. 

Sadly Peter, re your last paragraph,  that is now common practice at most senior management regimes.  It`s why so much of British industry fails, BECAUSE senior management only wants to hear, what it WANTS to hear, and anything to contrary is viewed as being negative and obstructive, and the BA hierachy are no different.

[Maxwellian]

Griff. I am extremely disappointed with your post.....

i am one of those that believe penguins love a good long walk for a trip in a boat.

[JennyMorgan]

Re land shrinkage, a late uncle of mine worked for the NRA and subsequently the EA, his specialality being drainage and he lived and worked that life out in the Fens. In his lifetime his bungalow dropped some eight feet would you believe. The reason was down to the Fens drying out thanks to deep ploughing and drainage. However, as far as the Broads is concerned, so I understand, our area is subject to tilt rather than shrinkage, measurable and provable.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

53 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Re land shrinkage, a late uncle of mine worked for the NRA and subsequently the EA, his specialality being drainage and he lived and worked that life out in the Fens. In his lifetime his bungalow dropped some eight feet would you believe. The reason was down to the Fens drying out thanks to deep ploughing and drainage. However, as far as the Broads is concerned, so I understand, our area is subject to tilt rather than shrinkage, measurable and provable.

To be honest Peter, i`m not well up on the science of it all, i was only going on what i`ve seen on tv. I know the land is Tilting or sinking, i watched the programme "Coast" with Neil Oliver, where he was diving in the North Sea at some depth, and was showing tree stumps etc on the sea bed actually on camera. The whole planets land mass is moving, tilting, or sinking,  and very quickly in some cases, so i assumed this is what was causing the Broadland marshes to become lower in some cases  than the river levels. I remember back at Easter 95, we moored in Fleet Dyke and walked DOWN to the marshes beside the river bank, and looking UP at our boat. That gave us a real surprise, as you don`t really notice it that much when cruising by.

 

1 hour ago, Maxwellian said:

Griff. I am extremely disappointed with your post.....

i am one of those that believe penguins love a good long walk for a trip in a boat.

Karen loves penguins Ian, so don`t let her know they`re haveing to walk so far for a boating holiday lol, she`ll insist we take some with us on Lightning in June,  well, more likely when we`re back up in November, the weather might be a bit better for them then? lol.

[MauriceMynah]

7 hours ago, marshman said:

And then we come back to that hoary old chestnut about dredging the Lower Bure to let the water out - noone has any evidence that this would make any difference at all but what is a real concern and plenty of evidence to support it, is that tides are getting higher. So if the Lower Bure is getting bunged up, how is it that salt water surges are getting more and more common and every year the impacts are felt further and further upstream? Don't ask me I am not an oceanographer but the two don't seem to quite match up!!

I have to ask you Marshman, Do any of the posts subsequent to yours make you wonder if that "hoary old chestnut" doesn't carry some weight after all? If it were the tides getting higher as you suggest, there would be a significant rise and fall at the bridge as there used to be. These days it's very much less.

[JawsOrca]

Nice to see the post back on track.. I've learnt something new about dredging which I didn't hear before.. Thanks chaps.. Makes sense, once again nice to read informed posts from many contributors, these are the types of posts I come here to read. Please keep them coming!

Marshman, thanks too for updating my "Facts", I hoped I had stated these were not facts but my interpretation of what's the BA are up to and shouldn't be read as Facts but nice to know thought my interpretation was only slightly of.