Jump to content

Cruise disaster


Recommended Posts

Not a lot of point in speculating really, could have been any one of a number of errors, or no error at all, some charts were sounded many years ago and are not infalable and new hazards are being discovered all the time, all will be revealed in due course I'm sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it hard to believe that such a huge, modern ship could go aground as a result of gear failure.

My understanding of these massive craft is that they have independent GPS systems at bow and stern so they can automatically plot the orientation of the vessel and it's precise proximity to charted hazards at each end. ( I vaguely remember Rod mentioning something about it as well on one of the photo "what's this" posts).

Given that, and the equally unlikely possibility of loss of propulsion or steerage, it seems to just leave us with human error.

The Times has just stated "prosecutors confirmed the captain of the vessel had abandoned ship in the middle of the evacuation."

As Hylander says, "Truth will out in the end".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strowie you must have misinterpreted my posting as no such system exists.

I thought I'd seen something like it on TV as well, during the maiden voyage of QM2 when she docked at the Ocean Terminal at Southampton for the first time. I remember a large screen chartplotter showing the actual outline of the ship in relation to either side of the docks with a few feet to spare, whilst she turned under her own power, in the dark. :shock: I seem to remember some sort of "fly by wire" system where the ship was maneuvered by the pods being controlled directly by the computer from bridge commands where the helm wanted it to move to. (sideways/diagonally etc.)

With the average accuracy of non-military GPS now being around 50ft or less, a thousand foot long vessel is surely more precisely plotted with a fix at each end ?

There was quite a discussion about it on here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index ... 71348.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the average accuracy of non-military GPS now being around 50ft or less,

Don't you believe it, the main issue with GPS (leisure) inaccuracies lies with mismatched charts, once you adjust for any offset in your area they are silly accurate, not that it should be relied on as an absolute and a substitute for proper a nav regime, as I said earlier and I’m sure Rod will confirm, even Admiralty charts are not 100% infallible. As an instance I have three plotters on board with the receivers about 6 feet apart and they show me on my finger when parked and most nav buoys shown on the plotters are covered by a real time radar blip when I have them on radar overlay. There are a number of instances where vessels report uncharted obstructions which have to be added to chart updates. From the latest info it appears to me that a possible uncharted obstruction was clouted and the skipper made the decision to get the ship as close to shore as possible in an attempt to effect easier rescue, but that is of course speculation, which I did counsel against earlier, mia culpa :oops:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really tragic case and with such a modern ship.Looking at the pictures it is a puzzle how the stabiliser is apparently undamaged and yet the damage aft of this is so severe that one wonders if she was turning and the rear end struck the rocks or maybe it was deployed after the impact?.Some found alive today ,lets hope for more to be found bt the rescuers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At a time such as this it's very useful to have people on the forum that really know the subject, rather than conjecture, which is where I was going. :roll:

Modern technology is evolving at an unbelievable pace, and TV documentaries showing the innards of monster ships and super ferries gave the impression to Plebs like me that "autopilot" now means someone staying on the Bridge 24/7 reading a book !

I can now see the reliability of radar being a much safer option than chart accuracy and GPS plotting.

What about underwater though ? Surely (here I go again), with the advent of forward facing sonar and even WW2 Asdic, these huge multi million pound ships can have some viable sort of "underwater radar" as well ?

Another speculative comment on the TV was that Med Cruise ships are expected to give passengers a closer view of the coastline, so travel much more inshore than ships purely in transit from A to B. If that's the case, and thinking that this one draws 26ft, couldn't there be some sort of alarmed Asdic ?

With modern technology and the great increase in the size and numbers of these ships, one would have thought that Titanic and Poseidon scenarios (fact and fiction) were no longer possible. I wonder if confidence and cruise bookings will be affected by this ?

Some very good points being made about the Captain and Crew on here, no-one knows if anyone is at fault, or indeed may well have been very skilful and courageous until the investigation is published.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was thinking the same about ffs and also the fact that these ships do run outside of normal channels at times hence inacuracys in charts plotted many years ago would not necessarily have been highlighted before.

Remember the same charts ate used by gps as paper charts.

Given the slow speed manoeuvrebility of these cruise ships does this transpired to high speed running. If not is ffs any good to the captain given its limited range?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well there is always some daft bugger in a yacht out there with his radar reflecter rigged the wrong way. :naughty::naughty:

:roll:

I've been on the IOW car ferry groping it's way up Southampton Water at 5 knots in 20 metre visibility fog a few times in years gone by.

They always then had a lookout with a radio right up in the bows peering into the mist.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whats worrying for me and we have been on about 6 cruise ships is that it does not appear that they did a lifeboat jacket drill that same evening.we have had a drill within 2 hours of boarding the ship. So this question of hitting a reef etc does not tally up. I do not think this captain or his no 2 will get another job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whats worrying for me and we have been on about 6 cruise ships is that it does not appear that they did a lifeboat jacket drill that same evening.we have had a drill within 2 hours of boarding the ship. So this question of hitting a reef etc does not tally up. I do not think this captain or his no 2 will get another job.

Indeed, on the cruise we have recently returned from, no lifeboat drill took place until aproximatly 24hrs after boarding, the only safety information given to passengers was that on a DVD playing on the TV as they entered their cabin. :norty:

Being as some people only return to their cabin to sleep at night, and not many want to sit in there watching Tv when there is glorious sunshine to be had out on deck, plus food and drinks galore to be enjoyed, there is no wonder the safety DVDs often get switched off and ignored. One of the survivors from this latest disaster has been speaking on another forum I fequent, and said that the problem with ships who carry a wide range of nationalities, is that in an emergency the life boat drill and any further safety instructions have to be relayed in so many languages, that people panic and make their own desisions whilst waiting for instructions to be given out in a language they understand, hence a number jumped overboard into the sea.

We will wait and see if any changes have been made to the safety proceedures when we sail on our next cruise out of the port of tyne this summer. although we are sailing with the same cruise line as before, in the past, departures out of a British port have always included a Lifeboat drill before we left the harbour mouth, and in the case of it being foul weather, the drill has taken place in the entertainment theatre with the aid of a large screen video presentation and staff assisting passengers in the correct way to wear their life jackets upon entry.

Julz :wave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder just how many of the cruise roots follow charts constructed with lead lines.

With ships getting bigger and drawing more if they are not using routes mapped with modern means it can only be a matter of time before more rocky outcrops are discovered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

eventually the Captain of the smaller tanker found the 8.9m patch by zooming in the area to a scale that no one would actually use. Clever programming by someone who does not understand the first thing about navigation.

Speaking more as a programmer than a Navigator, (though I've never been involved in charting), I guess you've highlighted a basic quandary in the whole principle of vector mapping.

To only show detailed shallower soundings based on the area of the shoal rather than the depth, when sufficiently zoomed.

As paper charts can only be viewed at the full printed scale, none of the detail is ever shielded from view, which, as you say, can be crucial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of us leisure guys may even be helping you proper blokes out Rod, there is a project underway that I am taking part in, it consists of a very small USB stick and recorder on board that is interfaced to GPS and sounder (you must show that it is properly calibrated) this records position and depth at quite short intervals and is then uploaded to the project base via your internet connection using the USB stick. There are loads of boats taking part in the Thames and East Coast and though obviously most are inshore the results will be interesting to see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Julz ,Barry,

IIRC the requirement to have a lifeboat drill is that it must be carried out within 24 hrs of a certain percentage( I think 10% but dont quote me)of the complement changing. And then weekly.Its a pain for the passengers but these guys do really take safety seriously on a passy boat. The cruise ships that I do usually have a drill while I am still on board.

Julz,

There will be no change in the regulations before you go on your next cruise...honest :grin:

Maritime law takes ages to change

Thats interesting Rod, I have never been asked by any cruise line to attend a weekly 'Lifeboat drill' after the initial one, even on cruises of 26nights+ and even after a real emergency occured, with a fire in the electrical system in one of the bars onboard P&O Arcadia, whilst she was mid Atlantic, and which filled the corridors on that level with acrid smoke.

At the time, we heard the announcement over the tanoy of 'all staff code X' followed by the bars location, and loads of staff and senior officers dropping whatever they were doing and quickly scrambling along the decks to reach the area. :o

At this point none of the passengers, apart from those who had been on that level at the time, were aware of what had happened, and most mistook the code to be the one used for a medical emergency, to which there had been a few onboard since embarkation, mainly concerning elderly guests who had over indulged and had a fall, or for one unfortunate man who suffered a cardiac arrest at the side of the main Lido pool and died.

When we hit land in Barbados, they did do a full lifeboat drill then, but with most people out on day excursions, this was done for the benefit of the crew only, and lasted a few hours whilst they launched all the lifeboats and tenders, took them for a spin around the harbour, and had the maintenance men check over the davits and launching gear, and service the life boats/ships tender engines before they were hoisted back onboard into there correct position.

One thing that did concern me on the last cruise though, was the way that clutter was allowed to build up in the corridors around the cabin areas. They had decided to do some upgrade work whilst the ship was underway, and this included stripping out some areas of carpets and relaying new, but often the discarded rolled up old stuff, along with the room maid's linen trollies, and suitcases outside cabin doors awaiting collection, made passage along these difficult even under normal conditions, let alone for the less mobile/particially sighted/elderly guests if an emergency was to happen.

Some guests did put in a formal complaint about the issues raised above, but were very rudely fobbed off by staff, and if pushed hard enough, the best they could do was offer the passenger a voucher for a free bottle of wine with dinner that evening, which is not really the answer to a serious safety issue.

Well at least for the next cruise Rod, we will have our own pilot on board for most of the duration, as we will be sailing within the Norwiegen Fiords and as far up as the Northern Cape of Finmark, stunning scenery and no nasty smelly industrial ports to be berthed in, unlike our last cruise with places like Safaga which really was the pits! :naughty:

Julz :wave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I have seen tonight they showed a track of passages through that area and he deviated a great deal from normal and showed pictures of the same ship passing close inshore last August for a sail by for a towns celebrations.Regarding the safety drill on the Celebration we had a full drill collecting life jackets from the cabin and assembling on deck and having a roll call.on P and O last year we mustered in a bar area and after a talk and fitting the the jacket on we left.Certainly not as thorough as the previous ship which even launched the boats when in port.We are off on a cruise in the near future on a comparable sized ship and although concerned are more anxious about the flight to Barbados than the ship.Also tonight it appears the captain did not want to go back to the ship when ordered to by the coastal authorities who apparently took over the command of the rescue ( according to TV reports ) but maybe Rod could know if that would happen in UK waters. :?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed the same drill still takes place on the Celebration Roy, although in our case not until the following afternoon after boarding. The ship was also suffering from terrible engine vibration, so much so, that we questioned her safety, and will not be sailing on her again.

I hope you enjoy your cruise around Barbados Roy, and if you get the chance, a dive on the submarine is an experiance not to be missed :dance

The place is very humid though, even on a dry sunny day, and a supply of light weight cotton clothing is a 'must have' :)

The long haul flights can indeed be rather challenging, but its rather down to 'Pot Luck' if the company in neighbouring seats are agreeable or not, but not nice being kicked in the back of your seat and wailed at by an unrulely child, or as happened on our return flight from Egypt, a teenager who had the window seat, and insisted in traveling sideways with her feet up on the spare in the middle, and was constantly fidgiting and kicking me throughout the 6 hr journey, and appeared not to speak English when asked politely to stop it! two guns

We have now vowed to only do cruises out of UK ports, and return via the same route. P&O may have modern flashy looking ships, but TBH we found the food and service did not match the inflated price tag that their tickets comand, their baggage reclaim is a nightmare when re-entering via Southampton, a couple of thousands of suitcases dumped into a sports hall type building, in no particular order, and their owners left to search for them unaided, before clearing customs :norty:

We are now thinking of trying a cruise with a ship from the 'Saga' fleet upon several recomendations from friends who have sailed with them previously, and have been highly satisfied with their quality and care :clapcheers

I hope you and Diane enjoy a fantastic time out on your next cruise adventure, and that everything goes safely and smoothly during your voyage ice slice

:Stinky:Stinky:Stinky

Julz :wave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can also see a scenario when if order has totally broken down on board and the ship is almost on its side then there is little more the Captain can do. :o Rod

Absolutely Rod, what's a master to do when faced with what is in effect total panic and utter anarchy. :cry:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Latest news reports saying:

The captain of the cruise ship that capsized on Friday, killing at least 11 people, has admitted making a navigation mistake, Italian media say.

Captain Francesco Schettino told investigators he had "ordered the turn too late" as the luxury ship sailed close to an island, according to a leaked interrogation transcript.

The Costa Concordia ran aground with about 4,200 people on board.

More than 20 are still missing but the search for survivors has been halted.

According to the leaked transcript quoted by Italian media, Capt Schettino said the route of the Costa Concordia on the first day of its Mediterranean cruise had been decided as it left the port of Civitavecchia, near Rome, on Friday.

The captain reportedly told the investigating judge in the city of Grosseto that he had decided to sail close to Giglio to salute a former captain who had a home on the Tuscan island.

"I was navigating by sight because I knew the depths well and I had done this manoeuvre three or four times," he reportedly said.

"But this time I ordered the turn too late and I ended up in water that was too shallow. I don't know why it happened.

Alternative view - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16607837

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Sponsors

    Norfolk Broads Network is run by volunteers - You can help us run it by making a donation

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

For details of our Guidelines, please take a look at the Terms of Use here.