Wacked and wacked again and again

[Soundings]

Well quite.......and when all the hire companies have been driven out of business by this you just may end up with a Norfolk Broads with no maintained moorings, dredged waterways and thriving riverside pubs etc............

So are we saying the hire companies are holding the Broads to ransome and if we do get wacked tough? This problem maybe due to the minority but there are frequent reports of such on all forums. It really has to be stopped - my boat cost me a lot of money!

[goodall_m1]

the Caley Canal is a very different system and potentially more dangerous (I saw a hire boat up here yesterday with a great big hole in it where it had mounted some rocks)

Jonzo, Remember that Loch Ness is bigger than Breydon, and you have to keep a lookout for more than otters and krakens when going across that!

[Dan]

I think one thing that's under recognised is even if someones out for a week (many often just for three/four days) even if you are used to boating you might have had a bit of a longer break than a private owner and most importantly it is a different boat to the last one you hired and after one day or two you are not going to have mastered the best way of handling or how it reacts to every scenario you come across, which as a private owner used to the same craft time in time out makes it easy to feel more an expert or to look on all disapprovingly, but if you were on a different type of boat and size each time you went boating each maneouever would be less perfect each time.

I agree there's no excuse for blatant stupidity, heading into things at a million miles an hour... boating doesnt exclude assholes unfortunately, as David says.

Still, the only people who damaged my boat when I had one for my own amusement were private owners... I was probably unlucky, but certainly those that did didn't care less or make any attempt to make good their un-necessary lack of care, but people dont tend to want to take responsibility for their own actions or admit they could have done something better or with more thought or care. This is true of most things and I doubt the trend will get reversed, sadly.

Dan

[C.Ricko]

So your moored up and are clouted by a hire boat, the helm trys to leg it, you take the number of the boat and the hire company, could you claim on the hire boat s insurance, and has anybody actually done this and won??

Plenty, but there are also a few who claim to have been hit by a boat which was the other end of the river at the time

but we wont tar all private owners with the same brush

I think you will also find that now the hirers pay a waiver there is no need for them to 'leg it' as there is nothing to loose. if there is a collision the owner will inform us, we will then get a accident report off the hirer when they return.

Paul,

How do you know the first whack was a hire boat, was it yellow

[Soundings]

It is fair (very fair) to say that not all wacks come from hire craft and that not all booze laden boats are hirers. That antisocial behaviour is on the increase across the spectrum cannot be denied however and I really do believe something needs to be done to stop it. Reports can be filed with the BA etc but that is always after the event when what is really needed is a deterrant that will stop it happening in the first place. No idea how that can be achieved though; it is not an easy one. Maybe the forthcoming pricing rules re alcohol will help

[jimbo]

So are we saying the hire companies are holding the Broads to ransome and if we do get wacked tough? This problem maybe due to the minority but there are frequent reports of such on all forums. It really has to be stopped - my boat cost me a lot of money!

Nope! What I'm saying is there is a flip side to everything.....and my boat also cost me alot of money! But I bought it fully in the knowledge of where I was using it and the risks that go with it.

[Hylander]

Its all very well saying take the number and the yard concerned but who in the real world sits there with a pen and pad at the ready to do that. We found when we got wacked you are so shocked and concerned for the boat that by the time you have come to your senses and thought about the culprits boat' s reg number the blighters have usually high tailed it.

[Poppy]

I know Clive's guys put over 400 boats out each week in the Summer (???) and that would be down-right impossible to attempt.

I've heard this hackneyed old argument time and time again and it won't wash!! There are retired experienced people out there who would gladly take on this work.

Their cost could (and should)be incorporated in the hire cost. There just isn't the will - and it's not just Rico's I'm talking about!

[Hockham Admiral]

Its all very well saying take the number and the yard concerned but who in the real world sits there with a pen and pad at the ready to do that. We found when we got wacked you are so shocked and concerned for the boat that by the time you have come to your senses and thought about the culprits boat' s reg number the blighters have usually high tailed it.

Well, we do! Also the trusty camera is on hand at all times!

But it's a shock, I agree. When you've been rammed in your new shiney boat (the last one) it brings it home to you...

[minor2011]

It's not just about the amount of training given though if someone is just going to think they know better then they will have bumps and accidents. Take life jackets for example. Not much training required to put one of those on & everyone is told to wear one for safety, but how many people think they know better and just leave them inside the boat.

I'm afraid it's the society we live in today & the attitude of " I'll do what I want cause I know best" that is causing problems & not just on the broads

[Hockham Admiral]

I know Clive's guys put over 400 boats out each week in the Summer (???) and that would be down-right impossible to attempt.

I've heard this hackneyed old argument time and time again and it won't wash!! There are retired experienced people out there who would gladly take on this work.

Their cost could (and should)be incorporated in the hire cost. There just isn't the will - and it's not just Rico's I'm talking about!

Poppy, Hi.

I'm afraid you've taken my quote a bit out of context...

SetFair wrote:Not sure if this still applies but back in the 80's I hired a boat (Broom 30) on the Caledonian Canal. The minimum tuition was 4 hours on the afternoon that you arrived, 2 hours if you could prove you had previous experience. If, after 4 hours of tuition, the staff felt you weren't competent, you did another 2 hours on the Sunday morning

That would be impossible with the sheer number of boats... and isn't really a "hackneyed old argument"

[Hockham Admiral]

Paul, How do you know the first whack was a hire boat, was it yellow

There's just that little 'H' on the reg disc, Clive!

And the -4, -6 or whatever number after the stern reg number!

[senator]

Not much you can do about the private owner short of insisting on an ICC, which in my mind would not be a bad thing.

For the hirer, which is to be fair where the majority of problems lie (not because they have less natural ability but because they are a lot more likely to be at the start of the learning curve) In my opinion the present system should be sufficient for the Norfolk Broads, as long as the yards show a little vigilance in checking the competence of the skipper.

You don't need to be a master mariner to navigate the broads but if the handover consisted of at least one side and one stern mooring, the yard should have a good idea whether they skipper requires a little more tuition before being sent on their way.

No need for every hirer to undergo hours of training or produce official qualifications, just provide a bit more for the ones that need it most, that way there should be no need for extra staff or at worst to go to Poppy's idea, one external person brought in for handover day who those that require a bit more could be passed on to. Do like the idea of sitting people down to watch a 10 minute video on the basics before the boat trial though.

It is true to say that no amount of training will have any effect on those intent on getting hammered and causing as much disruption as possible.

[goodall_m1]

She will then come upriver to be shown off then probably spend a while at Gravesend for us to try out that heath robinson device on the front before entering full service at the NE Spit Pilot Station.

Rod,

What heath robinson device have they fitted her with (it is hard to see in the photo)?

I have just found a better photo of Estuary Elan http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1554212

(and in time to edit this post)

Is that contraption a sissor lift to get the pilot up to the entry port?

That could be fun with any significant sea running...

[C.Ricko]

I know Clive's guys put over 400 boats out each week in the Summer (???) and that would be down-right impossible to attempt.

I've heard this hackneyed old argument time and time again and it won't wash!! There are retired experienced people out there who would gladly take on this work.

Their cost could (and should)be incorporated in the hire cost. There just isn't the will - and it's not just Rico's I'm talking about!

Thats a bit unfair, most yards have a set number of staff per boat, as do we, we actually have more than most yards as we only count trial run drivers. we do our sums on allowing 40 mins average per trial run on a turnround of 100 boats (we normally do 60-80) we also plan on getting all our boats away by 5 but staff stay late if they are needed for more runs our trial runs start at 1 O'clock and so most people only have 4 runs a day to do. we have plenty nof repeat customers so some do not need a run up the river if they can prove they have been with us before.

We have the will and the way

[senator]

Not sure how Rico's goes but When I had a boat demonstrated (Twice out of 5 hires) not one of them demonstrated a mooring. the closest one to it was My second hire, (did not let them know I had hired before) where I dropped the chap off on the side of a boat that was moored on the river, made a hash of it, took 3 goes to get him close enough to jump and he then just waved us off.

Call me stupid but I would say the most likely time for a newbie to hit something is while they are trying to moore.

[donnygeoff]

Not sure how Rico's goes

Out from the yard, down river with making sure you stick to limit, explaining why you need to do so, keeping to right of river, again explaining why the need to do this, three point turn in river, back towards yard, trial side on mooring to bank on the way, when happy, back to yard, stern on moor to let the trial run staff member off of boat.

In a nut shell

[Hockham Admiral]

Out from the yard, down river with making sure you stick to limit, explaining why you need to do so, keeping to right of river, again explaining why the need to do this, three point turn in river, back towards yard, trial side on mooring to bank on the way, when happy, back to yard, stern on moor to let the trial run staff member off of boat.In a nut shell

And with the number of boats they put out I just can't see how much more they can do.... problem is (and it's NOT their fault) that up at the top of the Ant there's just no current and they're well sheltered from the wind.... but again there's little they can do about that...

So back to the topic...

Paul had a particularly bad experience on the Yare..... if you are fortunate to own your own boat then you either don't ever go out in her on the Broads or you put up with Privateers and Hirers alike.. both have bashed us..... in about equal proportions

[senator]

So it incorporates a side on and stern on mooring? should be exactly what the doctor ordered, only thing left to question there would be the judgement on whether they are proficient enough to go off without further training.

I know from experience that other yards are not so demanding with there demonstration so maybe it is a case of where Rico's lead others need to follow. Would still like to see the idea of a 10 minute video on mooring in a darkened room given to small groups. Yes you can send out a DVD but you don't know if anyone watched it, and if they did was it just to see how pretty that flower was on the bank. If you do it in a group environment with skippers only, Run it every 20 minutes on handover day so no one would have to wait long, I'm sure the level of understanding of tides and maybe wash from speed could be massively enhanced.

A clip of a boat stuck under the bridges at Yarmouth might bring home the dangers of Yarmouth too.

[littlesprite]

Some 16/17 years ago whilst on a flight from Edinburgh we were asked to prepare for emergency landing, turns out a warning light was up suggesting the landing gear had failed to engage. It got worse when a fire was detected in the area of the landing gear and we would be landing with a full escort of emergency vehicles.

Anyway the point is some guy was doing the full panick bit, crying, shouting, getting in a right state so the stewardess tried to calm him and told him to remember the crash position as shown in the demo, "Demo, Demo I didn't watch it I was reading my book"

You can give all the training and video's you like and still get problems, I have probably made every mistake in the book over the years the biggest mistake being complacency, yes that's right "complacency" people are at thier most dangerous when they think they are a expert. :

[senator]

The reason I suggested small groups in a darkened room was for exactly the didn't listen reason.

And I have been fairly lucky after my first month or so of boat ownership. Possibly better not to go back before then, but if boat handling is down to luck rather than experience, I find the more experience I gain the luckier I get.

Would also worry about some of our professional members as they seem to be riding their luck too, moving those big things about.

For complacency read stupid. The situation is never the same twice but experience should go a long way to giving the tools to deal with it.

Hirer or owner makes no difference if you are new to boating then you are a greater risk to other boats. Just like driving some pick it up faster than others but it is the others that something has to be done about if visitors are to be attracted in greater numbers.

Have a read through the ybw forums and you will see what has happened to visiting boats. Think you will find almost all the negatives refer to a particular type of boat, well 2 types acctually but best not to go there.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

[Brigid-Mary]

Oh dear! seems as if I have opened a can of worms here.

I can accept the fact that people come on the broads for a holiday and that they hire boats, now I have not too much of a problem with that and I accept that most boat hirers are novices and thats fine. Most skiers who go to Austria are novices.

They come on holiday, pitch up at the yard and they are really not interested in someone telling them how to drive the boat, they can drive a car, cant they? It seems to me they are more interested in where the fridge is for the beer, wheres the bed and come on lets go!!!!

They are, after all, on holiday.

The point I make and I will stand by it is that I have no problem with the hire companys', they, like all of us are out to make a living. My problem is with the society we live in today. I got whacked 3 times. Of the 3 whackees, only one had the common decency to come and apologize. The other 2 scrotes didnt have the common decency to acknowledge the fact that they got it wrong let alone apologize. Thats the rub.

I note someone suggests that they should have a qualification as they do on the continental waterways, I dont think that would make the slightest difference in the hire industry as no one would bother. A qualification does not turn a ****** into any thing else but a ******. That is our society of today I am afraid It seems that many of todays citizens will not accept their shortcomings and become confrontational when they are criticized. Oh dear!

Dont teach 'em boat handling, teach 'em manners.

Clive, rest assured the first boat had not a trace of yellow on it, well apart from my yellow paint, but it was a hire craft as I called the owners before the pillock had got 200 meters.

Donnygeoff the picture in your avatar is exactly in the same place as we were on the first coming together.

Rod the pilot boat we came out of Yarmouth with on Sunday was as you say, the new boat for Ramsgit. I am sure Alan Goodchild, the builder was on board but I spoke to Ian on the VHF, who is Goodchilds technical sales manager and he filled me in on the details.

I think that the next holiday the mem sahib and I will have is a Biscay Crossing in December, at least we wont get as much damage!!!!!

Paul

[mbird]

We were delayed by the Estuary Elan a few weeks back when coming back up from St Kats into Yarmouth. They were a bit late so we had to wait an extra hour for the booked bridge lift. Certainly a very striking design with, and quite menacing when it's behind you with that razor sharp bow. She went like the clappers over Breydon, but we couldn't keep up with her due to having blown an engine on the trip

[Boaters]

Must just say over the years we have had our share of scrapes but the one that sticks in the mind was a guy who hit us on a friends boat knocking us off our feet and putting a hole through the hull.The boat carried on but after much shouting he returned to the bank to tell us we should not be so aggressive and don't blame me it's the first time ive moored up. The Yard had the boat repaired and sorted very quickly On our mooring in Fleet dyke in the week a large hire boat came by with 8 lads on the roof drinking ,dancing and shouting which could be heard as they went on the broad for some time before returning to thr BA mooring in the dyke and having trouble mooring.This carried on for some time with several boats leaving .They were most upset when told the pub was a 35min walk and after a another session on the roof they took off and peace returned to us in the Dyke..They would have been better off in a pub garden as I don't know what they expected from a boat on the Broads I took my grandson to Norwich City on Tuesday and there was some thousands of Celtic supporters in the area who had more than a few drinks and could have made one feel threatend,but the opposite they were a good crowd who added to make it a good night out for all. I felt far more comfortable with them than the thought of any contact with the boat crowd.Its not the drink that is the problem it's the person holding the bottle/can Roy

[Soundings]

We all complain about this behavior, the minority spoiling it big time for the majority, but how do we stop it? There is no doubt that booze cruises/party drinking and boats are uneasy bedfellows. We have seen examples of it on most occassions we are out and about, some of it from a distance fortunately. It will imho eventually kill the Broads as a place for familty holidays, making them somewhat like the no go areas that some of our city centres have become.

How many family holiday makers have already decided not to return I wonder?