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Guest midnight-sun

fishing atRanworth staith

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Guest midnight-sun

so we were at ranworth and it was full

so we mud waited with the 4 boats that were there before us and we all waited patiently

mum cooked some dinner (mmmm sausage sandwiches- she does it so well)

dad, matt and myself fished

then we finally got a spot

however i noticed, that at least four of the boats moored at the staith, were on the boats fishing, even when it was clear that people want to come in to the pub or the shop etc

i think fishing, should not be prohibited on this particular staith, or there should be a max stay time of 4 hours, morring for over night at 6?

am i wrong, has someone already had this idea or am i just brilliant?

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I think it has to be remembered that this is a public staithe for boats to moor at for up to 24 hrs. Importantly it is not a pub or shop moorings, although those two businesses are blessed with having a well kept, busy mooring on their doorstep, for which they do not have to pay for or maintain. Therefore any boat has the right to moor here for up to 24hrs, for what ever reason. That may be to fish from their boat, to visit the nearby church, pub, shop, or even to just relax on board and enjoy the surroundings. I would agree that if someone was fishing from the staithe, then they should move to allow a boat to moor, but if they are fishing from a boat, then they have as much right as the next person. Now if it was somewhere like The Bridge Inn at Acle, where they own the mooring, then it would be up to them if they imposed a no fishing from moorings or boat rule. Incidently, can you be sure that whilst someone was fishing on these boats, the rest of the party weren't in the shop or pub?, not that it really matters.

It should also be remembered that all toll payers, private or via hiring a tolled boat, are effectively paying towards the maintenance and upkeep of all BA 24hr moorings and have as much right as the next person to moor for up to 24hrs, whether they are a pub goer, or fisherman on board a boat.

Keith

PS I should add that I don't fish, it's just not for me, but each to their own.

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As with navigation these particular moorings should give priority to "flappy" sailors. After all they will have expended more energy than their "smellie" brethren to reach them and thus be much more in need of the available refreshments.

Motor gives way to sail!

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I've been coming to the Broads for donkeys years, its always a hassle to get in Ranworth, but it would be a mistake to change the access times. Generally you've just got to get there early and accept it !

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As with navigation these particular moorings should give priority to "flappy" sailors. After all they will have expended more energy than their "smellie" brethren to reach them and thus be much more in need of the available refreshments.

Motor gives way to sail!

In my experience, many of these so-called sailors only do the easy bits...when the going gets tough e.g. tacking into an adverse tide, they very quickly resort to the "smellie" mode and use their engines, often leaving the sails up to give the illusion of "proper" sailing and expecting motor boats to get out of their way. As an ex-flappy, I don't fall for that one.

With acknowledgement of your attempt at humour, your last sentence is actually incorrect. If you would take a look at the navigation byelaws you will see there are a number of occasions when the reverse is true. If you go out on the water under sail, believing that everything under power has to get out of your way, you obviously like living dangerously.

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With acknowledgement of your attempt at humour, your last sentence is actually incorrect. If you would take a look at the navigation byelaws you will see there are a number of occasions when the reverse is true. If you go out on the water under sail, believing that everything under power has to get out of your way, you obviously like living dangerously.

I very good point. However I doubt many broads users, particularly crews of hired vessels, are familiar with the meaning of shapes displayed to convey the vessels state. Luckily common sense usualy prevails. If an on-coming vessel is unable to manoeuvre due to their size or draught contraints eg. working barges, towing etc. it is a good idea to get out of their way.

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As a motor boat owner, I am happy to give way to sail. :Stinky However, we have just come back from a week on the Broads, when there were at least two occasions when I would have needed to be telepathic to know what the sailing boat skipper was going to do next!!!! I say this as someone who also sails and who understands the constraints imposed by wind power. I am never sure whether this stems from arrogance, incompetence or sheer bloody-minded-ness on the part of the sailer. :Sailing

Regards

Steve

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Well said Steve cheersbar I have never come across a more ignorant bunch as I did in June between Horning and Ranworth. Not one of the skippers of the sailing boats in question gave any indication of what their next move would be, strangely not one of them seemed capable of looking me in the eye!!! I spent many a heart stopping moment engaging full astern just to avoid a crash!!. In the end the red mist decended and the next boat that cut straight in front of me I opened the side window and pointed out to him that if his boat touched mine I would remove his head from his shoulders :lol: amazingly his boat seemed to be more capable of altering course than it had previously :norty::norty:

Sorry sailies but some of your fellow flappys are just taking the P**S and spoiling it for the rest..

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Well said Steve cheersbar I have never come across a more ignorant bunch as I did in June between Horning and Ranworth. Not one of the skippers of the sailing boats in question gave any indication of what their next move would be, strangely not one of them seemed capable of looking me in the eye!!! I spent many a heart stopping moment engaging full astern just to avoid a crash!!. In the end the red mist decended and the next boat that cut straight in front of me I opened the side window and pointed out to him that if his boat touched mine I would remove his head from his shoulders :lol: amazingly his boat seemed to be more capable of altering course than it had previously :norty::norty:

Sorry sailies but some of your fellow flappys are just taking the P**S and spoiling it for the rest..

I have to agree here, two weeks ago on our way up to Potter we had to play dodge the sailing vessel, some of them very considerate and happy to point towards there next move but others don't even have the decency to acknowledge they have actually seen you at alone give any type of indication as to where they are off to next. I feel an "Upper Class of The Broads" may be upon us.

GCB

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I have never come across a more ignorant bunch as I did in June between Horning and Ranworth. Not one of the skippers of the sailing boats in question gave any indication of what their next move would be, strangely not one of them seemed capable of looking me in the eye!!

You have been truly spoilt on the Southern Broads Jimbo ;)

A crystal ball fitted next to the helm can work wonders :naughty:

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Stevo, jimbo & gcb are quite correct and have good reason to be grumpy about some "flappy" arrogance and ignorance. I suspect you encountered one of the many sailing races that take place on the broads. I'm afraid the lure of winning often gets in the way of polite behaviour.

As a "flappy" my small cruiser, given a reasonable blow, was probably much more manouverable than a large power cruiser and i was always able to avoid potential problems caused by in-experienced crews who were usually trying to do the right thing.

We cruising types are on the broads to relax. I always found that indicating the side that I wished the cruiser to pass was always received with a cheery smile and wave.

The only times I would experience problems with an overtaking cruiser would be when I was tacking (zig zagging against the wind) and the cruiser would trap me close to the bank. In these circumstances if the sailing craft cannot stop they risk running into the bank. This usually only happened with crews who adopt the "full trottle" and "close your eyes" attitude to cruising. Luckily a small minority.

So to all New-comers to the broads that have felt intimidated by the "flappy" fleets please excuse their arrogance. They don't know any better.

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Came across a large number of sailies whilst returning from Loddon yesterday, most were no bother. In fact none of them were until I got into Brundall itself. Why they have to have their little club races up and down the stretch right outside the entrances to Brundall Bay, Riverside and Coldham Hall I don't know. These areas are a natural concentration of locally moored boats coming and going in and out of side entrances and can get interesting in strong winds at the best of times but add a whole flotilla of dingy sized sailies and you have the potential for chaos.

As we approached the 5mph limit that indicates the start of the Brundall bit of river there we were heading into a strong wind and also being pushed by a strong rising tide. Fortunately the regatta boats were heading before the wind down the other side of the river but, horror of horrors, the leaders angled round a marker buoy ahead and started tacking into the wind. There must have been 20+ boats (and then some). It was a scene of absolute bedlam as the boats heading into the wind tacking the full width of the river threaded through those still coming the other way and with tacking boats also overtaking each other there were sailies everywhere, and they weren't moving slowly. In addition to ourselves there was an unrelated and rather larger yacht under sail itself behind us (also tacking) and a 40ft hire boat as well. Ahead of us a mid sized sports cruiser had emerged from Brundall Bay and was attempting to cross the river in order to head downriver and a a river cruiser had emerged behind it but gone hastily into reverse when faced with the chaos outside. He was now attempting to maintain position in the marina entrance with a strong tide from one side and strong crosswind from the other. A third cruiser had tried to emerge from riverside and was also attempting to hold station.

Faced with this (we were heading for Surlingham Broad) I decided the best policy was to hug the starboard bank and crawl forward at a predictable but very slow rate keeping out of the way of the sailies. This mostly worked until I came across one particular sailie. I just knew I was going to have trouble with him before it even happened. He was making directly for the path I was on (on a starboard tack) and at a speed which would see him arrive at precisely the moment I would or even a fraction after. But he was very deliberately not looking at me at all, only at where he was going to go. About 5 seconds before he got there I dropped into neutral but he showed no signs of turning so I went astern on both engines but with a strong tide up my chuff although the boat was stationary in the water I was still moving forward at around 1kt and would have hit him straight in the side as he cut inches in front of me forcing me to to welly both engines hard astern (up to about 1800rpm - or 7kts going forward). He didn't even look round. But for another tacking sailie behind me it was nearly a disaster. They had planned to turn in behind me just as I passed, but suddenly I was still there and in fact had 212hp of archaic diesel in hard reverse. Believe me, I can scarcely think of anywhere I'd rather not be compared to being 5ft behind twin outdrives in hard reserve in a little dinghy and with a strong current pushing you into it as well.

Realising their position the sailie behind managed to turn out the way just before he would have gone into our thrust but it was a rather panicked reaction. And meanwhile chaos reigned elsewhere too. The boat from Riverside had managed to get out and was heading up river away from trouble. The boat in the entrance to Brundall Bay looked to be frantically fiddling with his throttle to stop from pirouetting in the tide / wind combi. The 40ft hire cruiser following me had also been forced to go hard astern but lacking my power and manoeuvrability had taken a lot longer to do so and the gap had closed right up, and lacking steering in reversing, and reversing into the strong tide, was now starting to angle across the river where his stern was being taken by the current. The mid sized sports cruiser which had left Brundall Bay and crossed the river had now gone round in circles several times and was still more or less level with the marina entrance, but facing the wrong way - my wife, once she'd finished articulating her displeasure at the situation we had been put in pointed at in disbelief along with something like "bloody hell have you seen that" as the sports cruiser continued to twist and turn and try to get out of the way of all these swift little sailies heading in all directions at once.

In truth, it was actually a highly impressive sight and there was some real skill on show - one little sailie on a starboard tack moved around and through a couple of others running the other direction will such precision as to have been worth a round of applause, it looked like a well oiled machine in that instance, but really - does all this HAVE to take place outside two of the busiest marina entrances on the Broads when just 100m further on is the open river? And why, in the face of such skill, is there always one silly people who is going to do his utmost cut up every motor cruise he can find, regardless of the danger to himself and to others. You may have right of way mister, but my 31ft cruiser has to be SOMEWHERE and in a vessel so small as to disappear out of view beneath my bow there would only be one winner in a collision so it seems a foolish move to try to force one to happen. And believe or not motor cruisers are also subject to wind and tide as well, particularly with the Yare in full flood coming from behind, so it isn't simply a case of pull over and park. Anyone who doesn't sail accordingly should have their backside tanned by the club because poor behaviour by individuals inevitably reflects on many others involved in the race and the club itself. All because he didn't want to have to turn 4ft sooner.

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Ok, not wanting to wade into a scrum, but to make something clear... If I meet you on the river in my yacht and it is necessary to communicate with you; my directions (hand signals, as you may not hear me over the grumbling engines) will be to direct your actions, not to indicate my intended ones. Thus, I may hold up the flat hand, asking you to slow down or briefly hold station, or indeed wave you on as I will tack away from you... equally I may well point in one direction or another, indicating that this is the side I would appreciate you passing on... When motor cruiser drivers are co-operative, even if their attempt to help is not perfectly executed, they will always receive a wave and a thank-you, unless I am very pre-occupied!

The most useful advice is what many of you already know, if you are passing a tacking yacht, whether it is going in the same direction as you or not, is to pass at the stern, not across the bows - unless the helm explicitly indicates otherwise... When passing from behind, get quite close in a position to pass, and go through reasonably quickly as the yacht tacks away from you. If you are on the same stretch together for a while, observe the way the yacht is behaving, it will give an idea of the length of time between tacks, which tack is short and which long, etc. All of which will help you judge the pass more safely.

On restricted stretches (The river stretch through the Potter Heigham/Repps bungalows for example) keep well to the side of the river... If you try to take the middle, you will never have time to complete the pass and get very frustrated!

Others may disagree, but I find that far too few cruiser helms will understand attempts to explain what I am about to do, for me to rely on that as a safe option; however, most will understand my polite requests to them. There are as we all know, excellent sailors and motor cruiser drivers, and there are poor examples of each. Likewise there are polite and considerate examples in both camps, and also idiots. Don't fall into the saily/stinky squabble, many of us here enjoy both methods of navigating!

I totally agree, a yacht under motor, even with it's sails up, should not expect or demand to be given way to, even if, as is sometimes the case, it is still apparently tacking... (there are reasons for this, but I won't waste your time explaining them!)

I think the friendships and understanding generated by forums such as this, can help to increase understanding and respect for one another. I would be glad to take some of my motor-boating friends out for a sail, to help them understand the way it looks from the cockpit of a small sailing yacht, and how we can happily co-exist! I hope these thoughts help. They are not exhaustive, and others (sailors or otherwise) may well want to add their thoughts. Those of us who sail will be glad to hear your concerns and observations too.

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Simon, you raise very good points - that I am not qualified to answer, and thankfully not responsible for! I totally understand the impossible constraints placed on motor cruiser drivers (or holiday yachtsmen!!) under such circumstances. I don't know how that can be resolved. I experienced a similar problem sailing into Hickling (Pleasure Boat) whilst a race was in progress, crossing the main channel. I was in a large yacht on a fast beam reach, far less manoeuvrable than the dinghies, and was abused several times by helmsmen who could easily have slipped around me, but didn't want to because they were racing!!

My comments above relate to the more normal situation where we encounter one another on the open river. My pet hate is the M25 (ok, Thurne Mouth through ton St. Benets' here some cruisers seem to thunder along in a pack, only a boat's length apart, sometimes two or three abreast, making it very difficult for yachts...!

We all need to exercise understanding and remember, we are all responsible to do all we can to avoid collisions, no matter who technically has right of way!

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The most useful advice is what many of you already know, if you are passing a tacking yacht, whether it is going in the same direction as you or not, is to pass at the stern, not across the bows - unless the helm explicitly indicates otherwise...

This is all when and good, but last week, on my day's outing from Stalham to Horning and back, every single sailie just ignored me, and gave me absolutely no indication at all of what they wanted me to do.

Thankfully, as you say, a bit of common sense when approaching a flappy is to slow down and observe and you can generally try and work out what they are doing, and the time it takes for them to do it, but it would make it so much easier if they would just indicate to help us stinkies out. I have a depth sounder, a compass, a map, nav lights etc but no flappy crystal ball, and 'guess work' soon becomes 'stress work' if things go wrong.

A bit of mutual understanding and communication goes a long way.....

Nigel

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Nigel, I totally agree. As I say, I have done both over the years and seen it from both sides, though I am mainly a sailor. If you get no help from the saily, then 'pass at the stern' is very good general advice; at least that way the yacht or dinghy is moving away from you as you pass!! It's just common sense. No excuse for rude, presumptuous or just ignorant yachtsmen, but do bear in mind that many you see will be on hired yachts and their experience will vary very widely, as does that of cruiser drivers! Some (like me) are extremely talented and skilfull, :-D others my be doing it for the first time.Don't even start me on the relative abilities of owners and hirers though! They vary widely too!!

If it even appears that a yachtsman/woman may not know what he/she is doing, then it surely pays to exercise extra caution? It may be that they are in difficulty for some reason...

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hi all,

I have read this thread with intetrest.

I am not an experienced helm, only been on holiday on hire cruisers 5 times, but It is in my oppinion common sense that if a yacht is tacking towards you, you slow down, watch what they are doing and pass to the stern after they have tacked to your side of the river. The times that I have met yachts I have always done this and have had a wave of thanks from them as they head towards the other side of the river. The best experience I have had on the Broads was on my second time, going past Horning (Ithink) my wife told me to "look over there, what a lot of sails, are they on a broad" I said that I didn't know but there are some round the corner and to get the map so that we could see what broad it was. As she got the map and I turned round to get it from her she screamed. The small yachts were not on a broad they were rounding the corner straight towards me. I throttled down went to the far right of the river and got the most freindly waves of thanks from all of them. It must have taken them all about 10 minutes to pass and myself, my wife and kids thought it was fantastic, 20 or 30 of them all waving and looking like they were having fun. I should have got the camera out, but I didn't want to take my hands off of the wheel and throttle, just in case. :)

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Guest Oiler

Hi,

Broadsword

There are as we all know, excellent sailors and motor cruiser drivers, and there are poor examples of each. Likewise there are polite and considerate examples in both camps, and also idiots.

Well said Danny. Arrogance does exist in both camps. We experienced a rather nasty incident a couple of weeks ago where a motor boat skipper totally ignored my request to either stop or pass us starboard to starboard and it resulted in a collision, no-one was hurt fortunately, but some serious damage to a moored boat was caused. He raced away pretty smartly without stopping afterwards too. It is not just sailies that are always at fault. The hire yards too must take some blame, as I am sure that 'the rules of the road' are not explained properly to hirers either. As for common sense, that seems to be in short supply in our 'modern world' especially after a few glasses of 'beverage'. As Danny has suggested perhaps we should all walk a mile in each others shoes.

Rgs. Dick :Sailing:Sailing:Sailing

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I do not sail but do spend a bit of time photographing yachts and on the rivers at all times of the year.

I was cruising down from Stalham to How Hill during mid winter and the only vessel on the rivers I saw was a yacht in Barton.

Nothing else about on the Broad.

As I cruised over the Broad, I had to take avoiding action because the yacht decided to tack across by straight line route.

100+ acres of water and the numskull cut me up!!!

Speaks volumns of some folks. !!!

As for fishing from moored boats ! Why shouldnt people enjoy theirselves when other crew members are out visiting villages, shops or local sightseeing.

Some moorings, as siad , do not allow fishing from moored boats, so moor there instead.

Dont like it - then dont go there - simple really!

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Now don't get me wrong.....I'm not being critical of sailies - I've never been one, so it's not my place to criticise something I know little about.

But what does sometimes confuse me, is that on occasions, as I approach a yacht, it's clear they're using their engine, but carry on nonetheless as though they were sailing, and take any ole route along the river, seemingly ignoring the rules of the road (why are they not called the 'rules of the river'???) and making me pass to the starboard when all they are doing is going straight and not tacking.

I get so easily confused....... :?

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Good post Danny. There could have been anything up to 40 boats in that little group and only one caused any real problem that I was aware of. Goes to show that it is definitely a minority of individuals and I know as much as the next person that motor cruisers are just as capable of ignorance - even to each other as much as to sailies.

As you say I will always slow as I approach a boat under sail and will attempt to position and time myself so as to pass astern of them. In the case of passing through a tightly packed group of racers this is no longer possible and the advice from sailies in this case is almost always, slow right down, hug the starboard bank and proceed at a slow but predictable pace and the pack will treat you as a moving bit of bank. But, as they say, there's always one! For me he was an irritation but for the boat coming in to turn behind me he caused a potentially dangerous situation.

The bit I don't understand is why they have to have races across the entrances to the dykes and marinas when less than 100m further on is the open river.

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I think my opinion of racing is fairly well known but I will repeat it, I do not refer to river cruising races which are an entirely different matter but dingy (or tenders as I prefer to call them) whizzing around in a small area should be confined to broads or at least to broad reaches with an area buoyed for passing navigation. The rivers are a navigation not a race track. And as for so called rescue boats, it seems to me at times that it’s just an excuse to hare about in a dory, give a saily a throttle and they go mad. :-D General cruising sailors are the same as the rest of us, out to enjoy the water, mostly considerate with a small number less so, but introduce an element of competition and all sense of decent behaviour seems to go out of the window in the clamour to show they are better than the rest, there is after all no other reason for competing, otherwise you could just time trial yourself.

All the above notwithstanding, I have noticed a remarkable improvement in one of the most difficult areas, namely the approach to Beccles, the safety boat politely asked us to maintain a steady speed as close as practical to the bank and they would work round us, they did, and with no little skill either so I guess it’s not all bad.

It can also be argued that a large cruiser giving as much room as possible by hugging the bank is in fact a vessel restricted in it’s ability to manoeuvre (there is only one way it can go from there) and therefore the stand on vessel even to a vessel under sail.

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Your quite right about Beccles David! That is what really annoyed me about the incident at Horning! I can find my way past 30 dingy's skippered by Children on my return to my mooring in Beccles without breaking into a sweat! But 10 boats on the Bure seem to think it's fun to terrorise every boat that dares to come past two gunstwo gunstwo guns

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