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BryanW

Save Our Broads (bins)

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Am I being unreasonable in suggesting that private boats should also pay for the disposal of their own waste.

I live here, why should I pay for it?

 

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35 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Am I being unreasonable in suggesting that private boats should also pay for the disposal of their own waste.

I live here, why should I pay for it?

 

I live in London and contribute to the multitude of tourists that benefit the economy but are of no benefit to me as an individual, I think its called swings and roundabouts, this is just another case of Authority`s local or national using any excuse to get out of their obligations in this case another piece of EU nonsense being imposed on us.

Fred

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This problem is nothing new. When I had a boatyard at Womack, around 40 years ago now, there was already this argument about boatyards having to pay for "trade waste".  We felt that our hirers' rubbish was domestic waste. Pretty much the only trade waste on a boatyard in those days was wood offcuts, which were burned on site. Waste oil was disposed of - and paid for - seperately.

The big difference then, of course, was that there were many more hire boats than private (about 3 times as many) and many more boatyards, to deal with the waste. If there were no bins on a public staithe in those days it was not so much of a problem. The occasional private boat, coming in for water, was welcome to use our bins.

Now there are hardly any boatyards and a huge number of private boats, so local councils are left with a problem that they never had in the past. Their reaction, typically, is not to regard it as their  fundamental public duty to at least empty dustbins, but instead to remove the bins on the grounds of economy.

Have they never heard of tourism?

I also agree with Wussername though. This "change of use" of the waterways means that somehow, a way must be found so that the people using the service are also the ones contributing to it.

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Recycling has to be key, from what I have seen glass bottles and cans make up a high percentage of the hirers waste, so instead of general waste bins why not push people to sort their waste, bottle and can banks pay for themselves and generate money, any money raised from them could go towards paying for a general bin.

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You may be right Mark that recyclable waste has a value. But I am unable to comment, argue, against your reasoning, simply because I do not know exactly what the value relates too. Is the value sufficient to cover the cost of collection over a wide area. Is the value of the waste dependant of market trends. In other words does it fluctuate over local or EU or even world factors.

Is it therefore financially viable over the long term.

Andrew

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Nobody, yet, has mentioned the rubbish that us anglers generate:hardhat:

Well, this one, if he has any waste, he then takes it home afterwards. If I can find sufficient energy to carry food & drink packaging, complete with contents, to the bank then those contents should generate sufficient energy to allow me to carry the empties back home with me. I would like to think that the same applies to other anglers, and others who use the river banks for their recreation.

As one who lives here I accept that when I visit London that London will dispose of my rubbish. In theory Londoners should expect a reciprocal arrangements when they visit the Broads. However, there is a question of scale and balance. A great many private boat owners bring their food and drink with them, bought from their home shops. 

So where does that get us? Personally I would like to see it as being a paid for service although some will inevitably avoid that cost simply by dumping their rubbish. No easy answer but pushing the cost of disposing of visitor's rubbish onto the locals is not really fair. 

A visitor toll perhaps? I shall now retire gracefully;)

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1 hour ago, Wussername said:

You may be right Mark that recyclable waste has a value. But I am unable to comment, argue, against your reasoning, simply because I do not know exactly what the value relates too. Is the value sufficient to cover the cost of collection over a wide area. Is the value of the waste dependant of market trends. In other words does it fluctuate over local or EU or even world factors.

Is it therefore financially viable over the long term.

Andrew

I have no knowledge on how much value these banks have but they would contribute to the coffers and removing the glass and tin would reduce the volume of refuse that would need finance for its removal, im sure its less simplistic than my head makes but it's hard for me to see how it would be anything but beneficial.

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In France, there IS a visitor toll. And there are also wheelybins on the quay in every village mooring.

I take your point Peter but you are talking of the kind of fishing which is a day trip, so you bring your stuff back at the end of the day in the same way as if you were visiting a stately home, by car.

Going back to my French analogy, the Canal du Midi is designated as a UNESCO Site of World Heritage and is therefore maintained accordingly (and with pride) by all the relevant authorities.

Compare this with the BA, who seem proud to trumpet a National Park, which they say they are therefore "duty bound" to "open up" to the public, but surely this also obliges them, in conjunction with local councils, to keep the place in good order?

If this involves extra cost, after the demise of all the boatyards, then it may be inevitable that there should be a proportionate rise in the river toll, provided that this is directly apportioned to waste disposal. And this time that increase should be borne by private boats, not hire, as the hire yards are already paying through the nose for their "trade waste".

And now I shall retire gracefully, with Peter.

 

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12 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

I live in London and contribute to the multitude of tourists that benefit the economy but are of no benefit to me as an individual, I think its called swings and roundabouts,

Fred

I live in Clacton on Sea, the council has bins every 100 yds or so along about 4 miles of promenade, But we get double decker bus full of tourists visiting from london all bringing their food and drinks with them. The rubbish is put in bins paid for by my rates. These people add to the local economy zero even the buses drive out onto the marshes parking in laybys made due to road straightening over the years rather than pay for the coach park. We as residents bear this cost as fly tipped rubbish on the beaches etc costs far more as does litter picking. So the broads councils should adopt this same thinking over costs. We also have the bins emptied during the winter for anglers still us them... IS THE BROADS THAT MUCH DIFFERENT????????? I THINK NOT.

Charlie

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Has anyone considered a Freedom Of Information Act request to establish what the exact cost of bins in an area is?  Then the costing's per hire boat could be worked out to see if it is a minimal increment to add to the hire fee, obviously this would not cover the private owners but a starting point. I think if the bins are to be kept, which I hope they will be, the costs would have to be paid for, unfortunately I think the hire yards would be the only target to pay, as the levy cannot be made another way easily. Unless it was taken from the Tolls account?

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That's a start Stuart but I already pay for rubbish disposal via my local council tax. To load a charge onto the toll would mean that I would be paying twice, not an idea that I could support;).  Perhaps hire yards should add a fiver a week to the hire charge and marinas add a hundred to the marina's annual charge. Not fool proof I admit but other than coin operated dustbins I really can't see any other option. 

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There is another option, and its the same as any other tourist "ATTRACTION" and that is reinstate the bins .

Disposal of tourist waste should be a high priority the same as public toilets.

Without these facilities the "ATTRACTION" is lost along with the income that tourists bring to the local economy, its a downward spiral after that.

No Tourists = No waste problem       Hoorah !     oh but wait a minute......

No Tourists = No business = No employment = No income

Its time to wake up and smell the coffee !!!!!!

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19 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

To load a charge onto the toll would mean that I would be paying twice, not an idea that I could suppor

I quite agree Peter, but your feelings support what I am trying to say, since in the 70s you would not have had this problem as the infrastructure of all the boatyards was providing this waste service "automatically" along with water, showers, pumpouts, moorings and all the rest. I gather there is now only one place in the Oulton area where you can get a pumpout!

Some may look at the hire boat business as making a good living out of the Broads, without realising that we have always given back a great deal to the Broads themselves. Do you remember when Blakes used to own Malthouse Broad, and the Maltsters Quay? They also ran Gt Yarmouth Yacht Station, and opened up many other moorings, which they leased and maintained. This is because the boatyards always knew that the Broads are their "stock in trade". If they are no longer attractive, well maintained and offering the right facilities for a good holiday, then people won't come back again.

I am already most concerned that many of you on the forum have been saying just that. "We'll have another go this year, but if it's no better, we'll go some where else". This is VERY bad news.

This is why I say that it is for the BA to sort this out. The disappearance of the boatyards, which they so actively encouraged in the 80s has left a void in the service infrastructure of the whole waterway and it is THAT which they must understand that they need urgently to address. The bins are only part of the problem.

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Tony, public toilets are also being closed;) 

That aside most boats pay for toilet emptying which includes disposal.

Your argument is sound but it also adds weight to suggestions that the industry itself, thus its customers, should pay. Some in the local holiday industry are hugely wealthy by any standards, why should their businesses be subsidised by the masses?

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Visited Acle wc's last weekend - shut as was the pub (it was morning) Billy big steps back onboard, I was touching cloth, only just made it

Griff

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9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I quite agree Peter, but your feelings support what I am trying to say, since in the 70s you would not have had this problem as the infrastructure of all the boatyards was providing this waste service "automatically" along with water, showers, pumpouts, moorings and all the rest. I gather there is now only one place in the Oulton area where you can get a pumpout!

Some may look at the hire boat business as making a good living out of the Broads, without realising that we have always given back a great deal to the Broads themselves. Do you remember when Blakes used to own Malthouse Broad, and the Maltsters Quay? They also ran Gt Yarmouth Yacht Station, and opened up many other moorings, which they leased and maintained. This is because the boatyards always knew that the Broads are their "stock in trade". If they are no longer attractive, well maintained and offering the right facilities for a good holiday, then people won't come back again.

I am already most concerned that many of you on the forum have been saying just that. "We'll have another go this year, but if it's no better, we'll go some where else". This is VERY bad news.

This is why I say that it is for the BA to sort this out. The disappearance of the boatyards, which they so actively encouraged in the 80s has left a void in the service infrastructure of the whole waterway and it is THAT which they must understand that they need urgently to address. The bins are only part of the problem.

Oulton Broad does have only one toilet pumpout and I suspect that that is likely to disappear in the not too distant future. The yards and allied businesses did wisely build the infrastructure but today that co-operation appears to have been lost. So, back to Oulton Broad, such as the Yacht Station could provide those services, at a price. Hire boats could carry books of vouchers with which to 'pay' whilst private boats could pay cash. Seems reasonable to me.

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It seems everyone is so busy trying to find ways of making someone else pay we are missing a few vital points, firstly not only do local authorities have a waste collection responsibility they have a duty of care in regard to environmental health, there is a considerable failing here in expecting boaters to keep bags full of rubbish on the backs of boats particularly in summer in locations which in all likely hood will attract numerous vermin particularly rats on board, pile rubbish at your front door or back garden and they will soon be on your case, this is why they introduced wheelie bins.

As for Private owners in marinas I am sure we all pay a contribution in our fees already to cover the owners cost of rubbish collection and given the numbers of owners who never leave the marina an extra charge would seem unreasonable, also when you look at what we contribute in other ways ie in providing jobs and commercial rates through the service industries i.e. the boatyards etc. we keep in business not just food outlets and pubs the hire fleets  use I am sure we more than cover any costs we are attributed to, the area would be at a net deficit without the private boating community.

What`s needed is a united approach in getting the authorities to accept and meet their obligations not ways of getting them off the hook.

Fred

 

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Whether it is public toilets or waste disposal the issue at the heart is costs of operating such facilities – so local councils would have us believe. I wonder though if the issues run deeper than just cost, because once a service is closed and lost it is very unlikely it will ever come back – even if the country went through a period of great prosperity.

When you see that the areas where rubbish bins were have been there have been great efforts made (at considerable cost no doubt) to ‘erase’ there ever had been any rubbish bins there at all. 

Frankly this is sheer stupidity, because if it is found at a later date by some ‘all party commission’ that actually there is a great deal of rubbish being fly tipped, left piled around small waste bins and boatyards are also having their own waste provisions overwhelmed that maybe, it would be best to re-instate at some key locations large rubbish bins. However they will then once again have to get Contractors in, pour concrete bases, erect an area to shield the bins from the elements etc just as they had been previously. 

Honestly, to my mind what we now have is it – the Council’s have rubbed their hands together with great happiness that finally the majority of sites where they had to collect waste have gone, and they are rid of the whole issue.  Should anyone else (like the Broads Authority) wish to take over such provision, they are most welcome to.

I still think my idea of having a third party commercial waste provided (lets just say BIFFA) supply large commercial rubbish bins are several locations, and supply all hire yards with branded coloured waste sacks to be stocked on all their boats and the charge for this be added to the cost of hire which may be £5.00 extra per week (I work that out based on 5 sacked that each hold two standard black bin bags being sufficient for a week on a hire boat) is a clear way forward.

Of course it would be abused the public at large could all use the bins and just throw in standard black bags ‘freeloading’ if you will.  

In this case, perhaps the Broads Authority could ‘pick up the tab’ of the shot fall between the cost of the service paid for by the buying of the bags, and those freeloaders not using such.  Surely the difference would be small fry compared to one single body paying for the collection of waste – be it the Council or Broads Authority. 

Other than this, any other system be it an additional toll that is charged to cover the cost of waste collection or any other idea people may have – you’ve got to collect money to pay for the waste to not just be collected but the whole system to work (bin provision for one) so how do you do this easily?

I can’t think of a way such could be managed, and paid for universally – where as buying the bags from the waste contractor is an easy and quick option.  

Even private boaters could order say £30.00 worth of the bags at the season start, keep them on the boat and put their black bin bags, carrier bags etc in them and then put the coloured commercial waste bags in the rubbish bins you find along the river which have been provided by, BIFFA – for example. 

Certainly the ones Veolia Waste provides us with in London are £1.35 each and each ‘purple bag’ as they are, can take two standard sized full black bin bags in it. We then have cheaper orange bags for recycled materials.

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I don't mind the local authorities charging a fee, BUT

1. They have already removed services rather than taking this route 

2. The whole thing would have to be via the tolls as a levy because otherwise the arguments about who uses their boat and for how long etc will ditch the whole thing.

3 a lot of boat owners are local and already pay so does there then need to be a different toll for Broadland residents?

 

 

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Hello Fred & Robin,

IMHO the local authorities are shirking their responsibility and are not promoting tourism at all. In an age where the litter lout is everywhere there should be more bins everywhere to stop litter being dropped on the floor. It would seem that local authorities would rather install more dog waste bins than general waste bins. 

Have these local authorities no pride in their boroughs?

Regards

Alan 

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Oh geez I feel a tad guilty bringing this back up now.. 

I think it's far too easy for us all to say how it should be done.. clearly the councils believe (Probably via expensive legal advise) that they don't need to provide this and such stupidly removed it (I think it would be interesting if someone brought legal action on them.. surprised NSBA aren't in talks??).

Personally I don't mind paying, but I didn't before why should I now?.. I pay council tax in Medway.. pesky tourist therefore use "My" bins why can't I use Norfolk bins when I'm visiting there?.. I think the easy answer is that river tolls to increase slightly.. the BA provide bins part funded by the councils (as others mention the influx of tourism supports the local area without tourism yup you won't need bins... won't have much more either!).

I did raise to ask the question "what on earth are we meant to do", in some way I answered that myself by looking at this link (http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/facilities/waste-facilities) which shows there are still quite a few places (although this is dated 2014), if that's the case then we should be OK at present. But the swimdeck is going to become the black sack store.. not sure how that will fits in with the "Idyllic" "Unique" landscape of other "National Parks".. it's certainly going to quickly start looking like a tip.. :facepalm:

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3 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

What`s needed is a united approach in getting the authorities to accept and meet their obligations not ways of getting them off the hook.

Exactly, and well put.

Where is the Broads Society, which was created to provide support and public representation for us, over such vital matters as this? Maybe they are the ones who need a wake-up call, or maybe we need a new association?

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On 27/04/2016 at 11:27 AM, LondonRascal said:

I can't comment on the bin situation, but as to the phone signal:

The signal improvements in Horning appear to not have made any improvements for EE customers - two people with different phones no service in Horning.

However, myself and another person using O2 got 4G which is incredible and very much welcome. I cannot comment on Vodafone users, but Three was performing well with my dongle too.

Wroxham on O2 remains terrible as far as data connectivity goes, providing only GPRS coverage.

Down to the south and to Loddon - no phone reception on O2, but I was getting good signal on my dongle with Three, so routed all my O2 calls via VOIP using the free O2 App 'TU' which means if someone calls or texts you, it comes through to the App seamlessly.   I also made some calls over WhatsApp without problem showing just how handy having MiFi units on boats is to create a WiFi hotspot.

Throughout my travels I found once again that Three outperformed all other networks so far as data connectivity. A great example was outside the Ferry House at Surlingham.  My EE MiFi unit was showing ‘2G’ speeds (GPRS) which is next to useless.  My O2 phone was giving me a single bar of 3G speed – slow but just about bearable to load some Apps with.  My Three MiFi was giving HSDPA speeds (less than 4G but better than 3G and about 4Mpbs download speeds) so I was able use this to Facetime Shilea back in London which was nice.

I would say honestly that onboard connectivity is now more important than how good the TV reception is, or if a boat has a Microwave etc because in my case it allowed me to stay in touch with people back home both via voice and with video not to mention keep up to date with Facebook groups and post updates there and find out what was going on in the world through my new Apps and know what the weather was doing through Weather Apps.

Hi 1st post

Wondering if you can help Londanrascal, are you using a standard dongle with 3.

Im with EE but rely on some signal for my business. Would say 3 is better.

Sorry for changing subject

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I don't live in a tourist attraction, I do live in a 'nice' village. They don't provide many bins for the passing public. A certain section of the passing public use my hedges as the bin.

This section of the passing public are not the type that are particularly good at problem solving so they are well used to others solving their problems. If they are in a situation where nobody has had the foresight to make it really easy for them to solve their problem, then it is not their problem, it is one of those problems other people solve.

This is the only deal on offer, so any small minded bureaucratic numpties trying to make things more complicated, difficult or divisive should be seen as responsible for the inevitable mess.

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2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Exactly, and well put.

Where is the Broads Society, which was created to provide support and public representation for us, over such vital matters as this? Maybe they are the ones who need a wake-up call, or maybe we need a new association?

A toll payers association was formed a few years ago, didn't last long though, for various reasons, but the NSBA did react and wake up so some good did come out of its short life.

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