Concerned

[BroadScot]

19 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Anyone got a 'dydle' that they can lend our JanetAnne?

I have a vague feeling that it is, or was, 3'6" at low water on such as Catfield and 6' for the rivers. 

For those of us not quite up to JMs local words !.....  http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-dyd1.htm

[JennyMorgan]

5 minutes ago, BroadScot said:

For those of us not quite up to JMs local words !.....  http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-dyd1.htm

Wheird wud! Blast, bor, wot else cud yew corl a dydle, thas wot it is? 

Joking aside a few 'swipes' with a 'dydle' every time a boat owner visits his dyke and over a summer it's surprising just how much spoil can be shifted. Every dyke owner should have one! 

[grendel]

perhaps a couple of inflatable bags to raise her up in the water might get her out?

[Timbo]

I've just started reading this document...very interesting!

http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/docs/totally_compelling_evidence.pdf

OK I know they are talking mostly about canoes, but...

I found the point that 'in the case of Josie Rowland v Environment Agency, 2002. (Case No: HC 0102371.) Mr Justice Lightman said a right of navigation  'may only be extinguished by legislation or exercise of statutory powers or by destruction of the subject matter of Public Right of Navigation e.g. through silting up of the watercourse' throws a really big light on what the dear old Broads Authority are actually up to!

It also makes a mockery of Hoveton Great Broad!

[JanetAnne]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

perhaps a couple of inflatable bags to raise her up in the water might get her out?

She is being craned out end of the month and will leave by road. It will be the first time she has left Catfield in two years. Can't see her going back..

[grendel]

perhaps you need a hovercraft (are they allowed on the broads if they stick to the speed limits? (if   they can go that slowly?)

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

She is being craned out end of the month and will leave by road. It will be the first time she has left Catfield in two years. Can't see her going back..

No wholesome dydling then? Dydling maketh man!

[Vaughan]

If JM could lay his "dydle" down on the "ligger", I would like to continue this vital discussion, about moorings.  

1/. Made up moorings.

One of our new members has recently posted on the Acle thread, to say that after a long time away he is impressed with the amount of moorings on the south rivers. This interests me as, looking at some of the photos you all post on here, it looks like that to me too! I think that there are actually a lot more made up moorings, with a hard quay heading, mooring posts and a gravel backing, which were never there before. This makes it look as though there are more of them, but they are nothing new! Acle Bridge, Salhouse Broad, Ludham Bridge, St Benets, they all look lovely, but they were all there before, and probably offered more space. They must also have cost a great deal of money. At Acle, you just drew into an earth bank, stuck your rhond hooks in the earth and then wandered off to the pub along a well trodden path through the tall grass. Rather more pleasant, in my view! Even Thorpe River Green used to be an earth bank. So I suggest that the "made up" condition of a mooring is not as important as simply having the right to moor there, without being told by some landowner to shove off. If there is an overnight charge, that should depend on the facilities provided. An earth bank should not cost a lot!

2/. Pub moorings.

I seriously believe that the popularity of riverside pubs started its sad and inevitable collapse as soon as they started charging for moorings. If I drove into a pub car park to find that I had to pay to park there, I would simply drive away and take my custom elsewhere. Equally, I wouldn't park in a pub car park if I was not going to patronise the premises. A question of give and take, and common courtesy. I don't see any difference on a riverside pub mooring, to its car park. The same principle should apply, and always used to. Boating people are valuable customers - they don't have to drive home so they are going to buy more drinks, aren't they? If the pubs complain of a lack of trade, maybe it was them who "killed the golden goose"? 

3/. Ratio of private boats to hire.

This has been discussed, but perhaps not fully appreciated. The reciprocal mooring arrangement between hire yards existed, and worked well. Not only did every boat in a Blakes or Hoseasons fleet have to be proved to have its own mooring (rather than parked somewhere up the bank) but the yards themselves had to provide a welcoming and pleasant environment, for other boats to come and spend the night. I suggest that in the busy towns and villages, most hire boats moored on the boatyards rather than the staithe, because all the facilities were there, along with a welcome. And don't tell me private boats weren't welcome, because they were.

In the sixties, there were 3000 hire boats (depending how you count them) but very few private motor cruisers, most of which were moored in summer at yacht clubs and didn't venture out that much. The River Cruiser Class, of Broads built sailing yachts, had about 50  registered boats in the 60s, of which only about 15 were racing regularly. Now, I am told, they have more than 300 yachts, almost all of which are cruising the rivers, and looking for a mooring. And a deepwater mooring at that - they all draw over 3ft and they are traditional Broads craft, which have the right to navigate.

Nowadays there are only around 800 hire boats and getting less rapidly, whereas there are now 3000 private boats (so they say) but these have no reciprocal moorings and no "infrastructure". Surely it is therefore up to the BA to address this? This is the modern use of the Broads, the BA are responsible for navigation and there is no question this means a need for more moorings. Even simply "access" to moorings, and a policy to prevent them closing. They owe this, to the toll payers.

4/. Pumpout stations.

As there are no more boatyards, there are no more pumpouts. But why? The BA should long ago have appreciated this trend and provided the facilities for all the private boats to conform with international laws of water pollution by being able to pump out their toilets. There should be pumpout stations at major locations, either coin-operated (please no!) or staffed by the BA. and provided by them, on the same principle that they provide lovely public toilet facilities for pedestrians visiting Salhouse Broad. At the same time these pumpout stations can also have RUBBISH BINS.

The use of the Broads has changed, as it always has done through the centuries and the BA  must keep up with this change if it is truly to discharge its legal duty to the navigation. The little local boatyards with their fleets of 15 boats, are no longer here to "prop up" the whole operation as they used to, and entirely at their own expense. So over to you, Dr Packman. Let's see where your priorities really lie.

 

 

 

[MBA Marine]

A pump out station, water and bins at all manned yacht stations makes a whole lot of sense.

[Timbo]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

The use of the Broads has changed, as it always has done through the centuries and the BA  must keep up with this change if it is truly to discharge its legal duty to the navigation. The little local boatyards with their fleets of 15 boats, are no longer here to "prop up" the whole operation as they used to, and entirely at their own expense. So over to you, Dr Packman. Let's see where your priorities really lie.

You paint a good picture of what's occurring Vaughan, but I think we all know where Dr Packman's priorities lie. They certainly don't lie with the Broads as the majority want to see them preserved. I can appreciate Dr Packman's position, I've curated some of the world's most precious artefacts in some of the world's most endangered habitat. Playing off 'big business', with local business, the needs of the local population, the demands of the ecologists and the needs of the habitat (not always the same thing),tourism, funding the whole shebang and my contracted/statutory duty could be somewhat fraught. Particularly when the locals tend to be armed and shoot at you rather than moan on a forum. 

At the minute I'm torn between wondering if the current state of affairs...with dwindling moorings and facilities... is exactly what the guy is after  or if he is just out of his depth. With fewer hire craft and the increase in private craft a lack of facilities will soon mean that privateers will move to other waterways. 

The alarm bell for me is the Authority constantly redefining and reinterpreting the Broads Act as this is not their job. Their job is to carry out the mandate of the act. Verbatim. The constant pushing for the 'stated goal' of becoming a National Park is contrary to the Broads Act. It is a declaration by the management of the Authority that the Broads Authority is not 'fit for purpose'. Reinterpreting the Broads Act demonstrates an inability to work within its dictates. Either way I feel 'pastures new' are beckoning, hopefully sooner than later and while there is still time to undo the damage. Under the current administration I feel that The Broads are in decline.

[Vaughan]

Something I forgot to mention. Pumpouts are profitable!

A hire boatyard has to have a pumpout machine, to service its own boats before they go out on hire. Once they have installed it, however, it makes an income from passing boats, private and hire. It also attracts those boats to other paying facilities, such as showers, maybe a riverside shop, and of course, moorings. It just takes a bit of business sense!

Why shouldn't a big riverside pub also provide pumpouts? They would find that would pay for its moorings! You don't need a fancy installation piped direct into the mains drains - the average county council septic tank lorry makes an excellent pumpout machine!

This sort of thinking has nothing to do with a National Park, but it must be "the way to go".

 

[Hylander]

Fine just as long as you are not downwind of the machine enjoying a pub lunch at the time.

 

[MBA Marine]

1 hour ago, Hylander said:

Fine just as long as you are not downwind of the machine enjoying a pub lunch at the time.

 

I know Thorpe island were doing their pump outs before 11 for that very reason, if you were to overnight at a yacht station then book your pump out for the morning before you set off.

[Vaughan]

If you live in Thorpe and the wind is light, southerly, you will get the full force "whiff" of the Trowse sewage works, which caters for all the "needs" of Norwich!

Please don't let's get off the main point here, which is our grave concern to ensure the future of the Broads as we know them, otherwise we may not be able to continue to enjoy a pub lunch, whichever way the wind is blowing.

[JennyMorgan]

3 hours ago, Timbo said:

The alarm bell for me is the Authority constantly redefining and reinterpreting the Broads Act as this is not their job. Their job is to carry out the mandate of the act. Verbatim. The constant pushing for the 'stated goal' of becoming a National Park is contrary to the Broads Act. It is a declaration by the management of the Authority that the Broads Authority is not 'fit for purpose'. Reinterpreting the Broads Act demonstrates an inability to work within its dictates. Either way I feel 'pastures new' are beckoning, hopefully sooner than later and while there is still time to undo the damage. Under the current administration I feel that The Broads are in decline.

That alarm bell has to ring loud and clear. 

Perhaps folk would care to read that excellent and very readable book by Pete Goodrum, The Norfolk Broads, the biography. It is well worth reading that book if only to gain a clear understanding of Broads politics and the national park question in particular. Anyway, when the first Broads Officer was appointed, it was announced by the once wise Eastern Daily Press, that he would have to do his job 'without offending anyone and without any clear brief as to what his priorities should be'. History records that Dr Aitken Clark would become that officer, a post that is now held by Dr Packman. Reality, as well as history, shows that Aitken Clark largely succeeded, indeed he was awarded a well deserved gong . He offended a few but by and large gained a healthy respect and a well deserved trust for and of the Authority, something that many, such as myself, would argue has been largely and deservedly lost by his successor. There is, in my view, a very clear contrast between the two men and their place in Broads history. 

It should be remembered that after its creation the Broads Authority had several years to prove itself, otherwise the Broads would become a national park. That it succeeded, under Dr Clark, is well documented and widely accepted, the Broads avoided becoming a national park, it remained as it was, The Broads. Marketing of which was largely down to Blakes and Hosesons, aided by the likes of Roys of Wroxham and Lathams of Potter Heigham, all successfully selling the Broads for what they are, The Broads. At one time Hoseasons was sending out over a million brochures a year, creating national recognition on the telly, all the time selling The Broads. 

Today the Authority has taken it on itself to market the Broads, not as the Broads, but as a national park. Dr Packman should be asking himself why is that the Broads is not, in law, a national park and why it was not made one in the past. The answer is simple, consecutive governments have recognised that the Broads is different, that it is unique, that it needed its own particular legislation, that the Broads is The Broads. 

 

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Incidentally Pete Goodrum's excellent book is available locally in Tesco, got my copy at Beccles, for £8.99. For those that don't have the good fortune to live locally then you could try Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1445613190/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476656768&sr=1-1&keywords=Norfolk+Broads%2C+The+Biography+by+Pete+Goodrum

or E-Bay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Norfolk-Broads-The-Biography-Goodrum-Pete-New-Book-1445613190-/401202564212?hash=item5d69894c74:g:LPgAAOSwZJBYA0xV

[vanessan]

8 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Incidentally Pete Goodrum's excellent book is available locally in Tesco, got my copy at Beccles, for £8.99. For those that don't have the good fortune to live locally then you could try Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1445613190/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1476656768&sr=1-1&keywords=Norfolk+Broads%2C+The+Biography+by+Pete+Goodrum

or E-Bay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Norfolk-Broads-The-Biography-Goodrum-Pete-New-Book-1445613190-/401202564212?hash=item5d69894c74:g:LPgAAOSwZJBYA0xV

By coincidence I bought this book in Jarrold's in Norwich last week (for £8.99) and I have to agree it is a splendid read. 

I am very concerned at the way things are going with regard to moorings, waste disposal and virtually everything relating to the boater, hirer or privateer. This thread is bringing a lot of our worries to the fore and I hope 'the powers that be' take notice of it. 

[smellyloo]

I have been a fisherman and a boat owner ..... I know longer belong to either group.

Whilst I agree that facilities for both these groups should be maintained I now belong to the much larger group .... people who live/work in Broadland.

The Broads need to be made more accessible to those without a boat and the holiday trade needs to expand beyond the limited scope of the hire boat trade.

The majority of people living or visiting Broadland do NOT have access to a boat so it is important that the Broadland landscape evolves to cater for their varied needs.

[JanetAnne]

Is that not a bit like going to a race track without a car and asking those racing to allow you to compete?

While I agree that Mr Loo should have the access he desires, should that access be at the expense of the boater /toll payer there will very quickly be nothing recognisable left for him to access.

[JennyMorgan]

I agree, Lou, but access there already is. It does mean walking though and far too many folk don't like doing that! There is a wonderful walk from Oulton Broad right up to the Geldeston Locks, a goodly number of drive to access points along the way too. I often walk parts of it, don't see that many people using it though. So what sort of access do folk want then? Being able to drive right to the river bank? Being able to park a coach on the river bank? We have to be so careful when we provide for access in that it could be so easy to destroy what we hold dear, what we go to the Broads to see. An easy to wish for 'improvement' but one that could so easily turn sour. We already have mile after mile of footpath and cycle way providing pedestrian access. Not so much that it needs to be provided, more a case that people need to learn to use what they already have, in my opinion.

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

We already have mile after mile of footpath and cycle way providing pedestrian access.

Such as the Wherryman's Way, along the banks of the Yare. Except the authorities in this case, seem not to want to maintain it any more, and have closed a chunk of it off!

[smellyloo]

Your quite right JM for the keen walkie person/cyclist they can seek out these facilities and very good they are too.

But there are thousands of families visiting our seaside resorts (many many more than hire from the boating trade).

I don't see many magical experiences for these families with easy access to the Broads with the opportunity for introducing them to the joys of nature whilst providing the essentials, adventure playgrounds, refreshments and boating lake style boating adventures.

And no I wouldn't expect these to be funded from the boating tolls which should quite rightly be mainly spent on boating facilities ..... There should be more emphasis from the planning authority to allow private enterprice to create these facilities in appropriate places. What a shame that the old Brundal Gardens experience closed to the public all those years ago. What a huge asset that wouldhave been.

[JennyMorgan]

Just a thought re use of the Broads, when I sail it I rarely leave much other than wash, when I walk it I rarely leave much other than footprints.

I like to walk along unspoilt footpaths, as we did yesterday, only met a local farmer. Okay, I'm selfish, I really don't want to see too much 'easy' access. If people make the effort then the rewards are there. There is access to Breydon Water for example, miles of it. Waveney Woods, wonderful. The last thing I want is made-up roads and those blessed 'interpretation' boards telling me what to look at. We should use and cherish what we already have.

I'm sorry, Broads Authority, I don't trust you to get it right.

[JennyMorgan]

Should the Broads become one massive Bewilderwood? Answers in no more than two letters please.

[Poppy]

59 minutes ago, smellyloo said:

The majority of people living or visiting Broadland do NOT have access to a boat so it is important that the Broadland landscape evolves to cater for their varied needs.

How do you see the provision ' for their varied needs' being funded?