Concerned

[JennyMorgan]

13 minutes ago, smellyloo said:

Your quite right JM for the keen walkie person/cyclist they can seek out these facilities and very good they are too.

But there are thousands of families visiting our seaside resorts (many many more than hire from the boating trade).

I don't see many magical experiences for these families with easy access to the Broads with the opportunity for introducing them to the joys of nature whilst providing the essentials, adventure playgrounds, refreshments and boating lake style boating adventures.

 

I'm sorry, Lou, but is that what we really need to provide? GRP swans with slides and swings for example, can't we just leave them at the coastal holiday parks? Boating lakes, but why? Aren't there enough day boats and canoes for hire already? The things that you suggest are already here, Lou, just go to Great Yarmouth. The swans at Joyland are great fun! My wife and I also enjoy the Peak District and Snowdonia, we don't see these things at every turn there, why do we need them on the Broads? We have to be careful what we wish for if we don't want to spoil what we have.

[smellyloo]

10 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Should the Broads become one massive Bewilderwood? Answers in no more than two letters please.

No, Not all the Broads but there must be room to accomodate all tastes. Much of. the public facilities on the Broads are a bit too "National trusty". A bit like visiting a dusty library .... loads of rules and things you shouldn't do.

With a careful caloboration with the private sector and BA planning there should be room for a more relaxed access to Broadland for those visitors who just want to have a bit of fun.

[rightsaidfred]

JM fully agree as to what you say the broads has to offer added to which there are plenty of day boats and now canoes for the casual visitor to  explore with, I would also suggest that if you cant find what you are looking for on the Broads you are looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place, I wouldn't go to Blackpool for a boating holiday nor central London for a quiet away from it all holiday, as for facilities on the North side there are already plenty of pump out points and water available, rubbish disposal we are well aware of and is a political issue, shops and pubs can only exist where there is sufficient trade to make them sustainable, within Norfolk/Suffolk there are plenty of varied attractions for the non boater, as for seaside venues in Norfolk all those I know and love I do so for their own uniqueness, sea side resorts as such have been in decline for many years country wide, that must say something, as does the decline in the hire boat industry and holiday camps, we need to appreciate what we have for what it is.

Fred

 

[smellyloo]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

My wife and I also enjoy the Peak District and Snowdonia, we don't see these things at every turn there, why do we need them on the Broads? We have to be careful what we wish for if we don't want to spoil what we have.

Well fortunately for you the broads is a member of the national parks family so it is very unlikely that the area will ever allow ordinary people to have fun ............  so i'll get me green wellies and tweedy jacket and go and seek out that protected great flat nosed newt and put it in my seaside bucket ............ I know how to be a rebel!!

[JennyMorgan]

Maybe, Lou, the attraction of the Broads goes rather deeper than just a bit of fun? I agree that it is, in places, like visiting a dusty library but is that so bad? I love Horsey Mere with a passion, often visit it, even in the depths of winter, there are always people there. The car park can be jammed, even in January, folk walking across the marshes to see the seals for example. I agree that planning should be more relaxed, that there should be more access but perhaps more for the enjoyment of the Broads rather than just a bit of fun. The Broads is precious, we need rules, as we do more moorings and wastebins. The Broads are what the Broads is, why try to re-invent them? Why do we have to cater for all tastes, surely we need to learn how to cater for those already coming here, back to moorings etc.

[Mowjo]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

I'm sorry, Lou, but is that what we really need to provide? GRP swans with slides and swings for example,

Peter! don't know if you remember but there used to be Swan peddle boats at Coltishall, where the little hut is on the Island, and very few people ever used them, So turn the Broads into a theme park? sorry not for me! keep them pure, the Broads are all about boating and always have been, bring in water sports! cycling and clear some of the beautiful walk that have over grown over the years,

 

[JennyMorgan]

3 minutes ago, Mowjo said:

Peter! don't know if you remember but there used to be Swan peddle boats at Coltishall, where the little hut is on the Island, and very few people ever used them, So turn the Broads into a theme park? sorry not for me! keep them pure, the Broads are all about boating and always have been, bring in water sports! cycling and clear some of the beautiful walk that have over grown over the years,

 

No, didn't know about that one. I do believe that a swan peddle boat was tried at Burgh St Peters in the early 1900's though. The thought of a Broads National Theme Park fill me with dread, drive through McDonalds for boats at Horning and rangers parading around in character outfits, urghhhhh! By the way, there are peddle boats at Oulton Broad, in the park's boating lake. It's all here, if folk really want it, just needs searching out.

[smellyloo]

46 minutes ago, Mowjo said:

So turn the Broads into a theme park? sorry not for me! keep them pure, the Broads are all about boating and always have been, bring in water sports! cycling and clear some of the beautiful walk that have over grown over the years,

 

Sadly Broadland is slowly changing. Boatyards are closing, moorings are disappearing, waterways are silting and becoming overgrown ................ this in turn means less people hire boats and eventually as the cruising range and facilities diminish the privateer will sell up.

So I think it is important that the appeal of Broadland is expanded to encompass as many peoples preferences as possible.

Who knows even a fleet of hire vessels in the form of swans & ducks might prove to be unique selling point but seriously any private venture will fail or succed depending on the foresight of the owner providing they are not shackled by the desire of the tree hugging, newt loving graduates who have snuggly put their toes up in our various "trusty" type houses and seek to justify their lofty salaries by poking their nosies into other peoples business.

Diversify or DIE!!

[LondonRascal]

Moorings Currently:

Having returned from a week afloat, two things struck our crews and three boats were on:  Firstly that in our experience this time of the year, we have the pick of moorings but not this time since there were a great number of hire boats out and while far quieter on the southern rivers, the likes of Beccles and Oulton Broad  still had a peppering of hire boats that had come from the likes of Richardsons and Ferry Marina. A good thing for the boatyards to have their boats out, but causing popular mooring locations such as Horning and Ranworth to be full as have been earlier in the season.

Secondly, the lack of moorings – and not just ones that have been available as formal moorings and now are displaying signs saying No Mooring, but many which were favourite moorings of mine and offered a good ‘back up’ should formal moorings be taken – should Womack Water be full you could moor on the dyke leading from the Thurne with Rhonde Anchors as I enjoyed doing a few years back.  

It is a combination of factors – land owners, the Broads Authority and the Environment Agency with varying agendas I feel have caused the moorings to be slowly be eaten away at and this does cause a major issues when holiday makers come and find it so difficult to moor where they wish to visit.  It is not unusual to read the many arguments about towns losing out to trade with car parking being so hard, so the same goes with boating.  It is meant to be a relaxing holiday not an anxious and fraught time trying to find somewhere to stop. 

Brown Water:

While not about moorings, Charlie had noted that where boats have been out cruising you can see a ‘brown stain’ on their bows.  This is something that has always happened but has taken a long time to build up on boats however, Broad Ambition has in recent times had this stain beginning to show on her bow, the hire boats had it too and I had noticed from using the Mop how brown and silty the water seemed.  

I am no scientist but I think I might have an idea as to why this has become more of a problem – and it is to do with the river banks and sediment.

We know the Broads are a Peat rich area but as I had said in a video not so long ago, if you have something (like a wood quay heading) between the bank and river this will stop much of the bank material finding its way into the river. I can’t see how one could argue against this because there is a physical barrier between the bank and the action of the water on it.

When cruising to Womack Water I saw how the recently ‘re-worked’ river banks here which had been smooth and at a 45 degree angle to the river were now a rough, pitted and lumpy muddy bank with Reeds growing.  The Reeds may very well hold the banks together to a degree, but the current and wash from boats will remove a few grams of material every time it hits the soft mud.  This is now occurring in many places on the Bure, Thurne and Ant and likely also on the southern rivers where the same works have been undertaken. 

It is my opinion, that this extra material is getting into the rivers in small amounts and generally being suspended in the water column which in turn causes the water to appear more ‘dirty’ and thus the bow of boats constantly in being covered by this when underway is being ‘stained’. 

Either way, it must be the case that without quay headings, more bank erosion will happen and informal moorings have been lost as a secondary consideration. The only winner I can see is that river banks now appear to be more ‘natural’ lined with Reeds and there of course is a large cost benefit to removing the piling with no ongoing maintenance then being needed. 

The Future:

I know it might not be a popular point and I know I have made it before and it all seems ‘oh so technical’, but I would not mind paying to moor at locations overnight if you also got something for the money you paid – not just a bit of bank and some posts to tie up to.  

If the Broads Authority could oversee a system whereby land owners could provide more of their land for moorings, and an automated toll collection system be used to charge boats for their moorings this would sort out the mooring problem. 

For those who may not understand my principle it works like this: boats – private and hire – would have chips (perhaps similar to those used in lorries for toll roads and collecting such toll as the vehicles drives under a sensor). This ‘chip’ is the toll for the boat, it therefore would be also readable by any Ranger – to see if the boat had an up to date toll in an instant. 

So far as moorings go, you would come into moor and the system would register your boats arrival – if a hirer the mooring fee would be deducted from your account held back at your home boatyard probably using a pre-paid method, conversely if a private boat you could manage your toll and river moorings online and pay as you moor or have all your years moorings payable when you renew your toll.

Different moorings may have different overnight fees, or have different facilities included in the fee – or as added extras. Rather than have a patch work of mooring collects (needing paying) you might need a single person overseeing the systems administration so one salaried person. 

I’d like to see a larger investment carried out to the mooring infrastructure – this costs a lot and may have to be borrowed - but if it were the case that formal moorings had provision for water, electric hook up, rubbish collection and WiFi – with some being paid for extra such as the electric and WiFi it might fund itself since every boat that moored would be paying a fee. 

Another good point is where you have boats that overstay moorings, or leave and return within 24hrs – the system would know this and as a result would automatically issue a penalty – say you stayed on a mooring a 24hr mooring and in hour 26 you may have a penalty fine issued, if such was not paid you could not renew your Toll. 

Now it may all seem controversial, especially the overstaying and being penalised financially – but the fact is so many boatyards have closed or while still in business are private marinas so you’ve lost those spaces to moor for visiting hire boats, you have a greater number of private boats now who need to moor on rivers and not within boatyards, mooring restrictions are being brought in (albeit often ignored) at the like of Ludham Bridge as to the length of a boat so I see that if land owners and the Broads Authority were actually making something from the provision of moorings, they would be something in it for them to provide them, and the pay off for the boater would be accessible moorings and services to be used at the moorings.  

Ask the Doctor:

As far as this goes I think it is pretty poor show that John Packman has chosen a Forum to try and organise a 'Q&A' session with in the most clumsy of fashions. 

What should be going on is a 'Town Square' meeting where people can comment on Twitter and Facebook for example in real time during a live stream. This would mean the thousands of people who now frequent Facebook Groups and mainly are visitors to the area can have their views shared, together with large population of boat owners.  It would be far more open, inclusive and transparent and one could have a better chance of their points being answered.  It also would mean that John Packman would not have the comfort to have questions posted before the event, then decide which to answer and in what way he might like to answer them.

The Broads Authority  talk about embracing technology and engaging with a new generation, then for heavens sake do as you preach and interact with people openly.

 

[BillGrist]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

How do you see the provision ' for their varied needs' being funded? 

I should think the £3 million pound NATIONAL PARK grant should come in handy.

[Vaughan]

Hello Robin, I have been waiting for your contribution, and I am glad you had a good holiday!

Yet again, an excellent post, with a lot of positive thought behind it.

I don't actually regard your ideas as controversial at all. I have already called you a "modern" Broadsman, who is able to see his love for the place in the light of how modern technology might help. Your suggestions are very probably the way ahead.

Meantime, the BA must accept that their duty to the navigation means dredging, and moorings. Those two, are what it is all about, and those two are what the river toll should be paying for.

[JennyMorgan]

Hi Bill, welcome to both the debate and the forum. Re that National park grant, the Broads don't get it because it is a national park, which it isn't, but because quite simply that is where the funding comes from. It has to come from somewhere and DEFRA  saw the National Park route as a sensible source, which makes sense and explains why the Broads is a MEMBER of the NP family. Inevitably what is sensible and reasonable has been manipulated, as we have come to expect I'm afraid. 

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Bill,

Welcome to the forum and your first post.

Regards

Alan

[BroadScot]

2 hours ago, BillGrist said:

I should think the £3 million pound NATIONAL PARK grant should come in handy.

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the NBN Forum

Iain

[Timbo]

Call me Dr Thicko but...you know when you have one of those absolute facepalm moments?Oh I've just had a big one! My verbal reaction at the juncture was 'Are you kidding me?' with a few more expletives.

You see, I always wondered what Dr Packman was a doctor of? Some part of me assumed he was an ecologist. In the past I've read a few bio's of the man but they never mentioned his qualifications. Out of idle curiosity, today I cross referenced a search against company directorships and up pops the chap and his qualifications. Now after the fiasco with Thorpe Island and Telephoneboxgate I discover the man is a bloody town planner?  Someone please tell me I'm wrong? Please? I don't know whether to laugh like a drain or weep with frustration! I mean...a student of the built environment? I have to be wrong?

[Poppy]

Yes Timbo - he's a town planner all right. !

[JennyMorgan]

Dr John Packman BA, PhD, Dip TP, MBA, MIED, MRTPI FRGS

John was appointed as Chief Executive to the Broads Authority on 20 March 2001. He has previously worked as a town planner for Norfolk County Council, as a researcher at the University of East Anglia and in Wellington, New Zealand for the Ministry of Works and Development. Prior to taking up his present role he was Head of Economic Development and Regeneration for Brighton and Hove City Council.
He is currently working with the Authority’s members and staff on significant changes to the organisation to cope with a large projected reduction in National Park Grant following the Spending Review.

A career public servant with, in my honest opinion, no obvious qualification or experience in regard to the Broads.

[stumpy]

And there was me thinking he was a merchant banker!

[Poppy]

2 minutes ago, stumpy said:

And there was me thinking he was a merchant banker!

We all know he's one of those 

[JennyMorgan]

6 minutes ago, Poppy said:

We all know he's one of those 

I didn't!

[Timbo]

A right mis match of qualifications. Diploma in Town Planning, Masters in Business Administration, Member of the Institute of Design and Engineering, Member of Royal Town Planning Institute and Fellow of Royal Geographic Society. It doesn't give mention of CPT or MTC though. Cycling Proficiency Test and Member of the Tufty Club.

On a serious note though it does explain quite a lot. Having been married to town planner, they are a bit of a paranoid bunch who see regulation as something to be 'got around' rather than followed.

 

[MauriceMynah]

Hmmm, Time for one of my 'unpopular' views again.

It is inevitable, absolutely inevitable, that the broads will change. They have changed since the 60s when I first knew them, and they will continue to change. Nobody but nobody will be able to stop that. What we can do is try to influence the direction and the extent that this change will take.

To my mind there are only two feasible directions. Either commercialisation or conservation. I see no other option.

With commercialisation we will see more money spent on waste disposal, moorings footpaths as well as GRP swans, gaudy plastic slides and no doubt cruise through MacDonald's. Everything that goes into the broads will be done to make money. The other option is for the whole shooting match to become a great big nature reserve, probably run by the RSPB with naff all access to anybody without a title.

We have members looking back at those halcyon days of the 50s/60s forgetting perhaps that their parents were doing exactly the same thing. we can take some comfort though, given that our children will also be doing just that!

The broads will not go back to how they were any more than they will stay as they are, but each and every one of us has to decide in which direction we want it to go, and be loud in voice in our wishes.

Me? I'm for the commercial direction. Pedellos and popcorn over sediment and Sandford.

[Poppy]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Hmmm, Time for one of my 'unpopular' views again.

 

To my mind there are only two feasible directions. Either commercialisation or conservation. I see no other option.

W

 

There is a 'third way' which I believe would be the preferred direction for the majority here - let's maintain what we've got!

[MauriceMynah]

That is the one thing that will not happen Poppy however much we would like it to. that's why I said...

7 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

It is inevitable, absolutely inevitable, that the broads will change. They have changed since the 60s when I first knew them, and they will continue to change. Nobody but nobody will be able to stop that. What we can do is try to influence the direction and the extent that this change will take.

 

[BroadScot]

EDP Front page Headline...... BA chief is a TOWN PLANNER !....

Know wonder the moorings are disappearing, he is only qualified to design CAR PARKS !!

Who gave this Planner the job in the first place? It really does beggar belief!

Iain.