Special Ensigns

[LondonRascal]

Over on the thread about the Calendar a point has been raised about flag etiquette - so to keep things tidy I'll post my views here and others can do likewise..

Peter said:

" Robin, perhaps we should 'chill' but one of the great joys for some of us is that in boating we do have traditions, customs and etiquette. We also have rules, should we be able to pick and choose which to abide by? All that aside, for me anyway, privileges are earned and should be respected. Flag etiquette, like all good manners, such as crossing a neighbouring boat by its foredeck, is all part of the fun of boating!  Perhaps we should thrive rather neglect the traditions surrounding our wonderful hobby. Anyway, we/I digress!"

I agree with this, and of traditions and it is not as if I am saying that people should bin them and pick and choose which they might like to follow.  But I do feel that should you be on a passage and arrive in a new harbour or cruising on commercial river  there are going to be far more people who will know a lot about this sort of thing and come and pick you up on certain issues that are not being followed. You can imagine it now:

"Lovely yacht you've got there, I see you were in the Navy too - where have you cruised from today?"

"Navy? Ahh the flag, yeah I just liked the look of and bought it in Barbados..."

"Barbados you say? Well ,you know that really is interesting, but that is not the done thing you know; breaks etiquette and rules flying that"

"Well, I've been at sea for 32 days crossing the Atlantic and I did not see anyone to tell me off then, now where are the showers mate?"

One might think the person on a boat flying a RAF ensign had something to do with the RAF - it makes sense, but imagine if they had not, what changes? You would only know if you knew them or happened to moor up near and strike up a conversation and find out. It is like saying if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there does it make a sound, you only are going to feel annoyed that a flag has been flown outside of the proper etiquette if you became aware it was being done so it comes down to your own belief and principles really - I'd like to think I was someone who respected them, but at times we can all be a little naughty and step bend the rules a little.

[TheQ]

According to what I could find out about flying the RAF Flag. is that only RAF Stations, and Air officers could do so  (that's ranks not pilots), even the Air sea Rescue boats of WW2 and later technically didn't have permission to fly the flag.

  Like wearing medals to which you are not entitled to,  to me wearing (flying) someone else's  flag and  not entitled to,  I find offensive.

[Vaughan]

Jill has suggested that we have a new thread on this important piece of flag etiquette.

This is a précis of what it says in the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship - known to mariners as "the steamship manual".

From the birth of the Royal Navy up until Tudor times, warships wore the Banner of St George, which we now call the England flag. The Union Flag (of England and Scotland) dates from 1601, and at the same time the Navy was split into 3 squadrons, which were distinguished by a red, white, or blue ensign, with the Union Flag in the "hoist". Officers tended to always serve in ships of the same squadron, which is why Nelson is often referred to as an admiral "of the Blue".

Around 1700, merchant ships began also to wear the red ensign, although the reason why is obscure, so warships began to wear the Union Flag as well, to distinguish them from merchant ships. In those days they looked much the same and merchant ships were also armed, so whether or not you got sunk depended on the colours you hoisted! This is why the Union Flag is still only permitted at sea when worn - at the Jack - by a warship.

In 1801 the Irish Cross of St Patrick was added to the Union Flag and warships began always to wear the white ensign in battle, (including Trafalgar) to avoid confusion with the French Tricolor. The modern white ensign, incorporating the banner of St George, came into being in 1865, with the Merchant Navy getting the red ensign (since they were already wearing it) and the blue ensign being accorded to naval auxiliaries and certain colonial navies, such as Australia and New Zealand.

Nowadays certain yacht clubs also have a warrant to wear the blue ensign and as such, are regarded as "members of Her Majesty's Fleet". In the meantime the banner of St George has been awarded by the Queen Mother as a unique honour to the Little Ships of Dunkirk. This is why it is discourteous - and illegal - to fly a Union Flag or an England Flag on a modern private motor cruiser.

When we wear the red ensign on a boat, then apart from P&O ferries, we are pretty well all that is left of the British Merchant Fleet, and the flags that we fly are in respect of hundreds of years of the tradition of a maritime nation. It should also be a matter of pride to know these traditions, and to get them right. For me, it is part of the pleasure of boating.

 

 

[Vaughan]

Mods, I think there are two threads to merge here, as I have just started another one!

As to the RAF ensign it is indeed, not allowed to wear it on a boat. This is different from the blue ensign of the RAF sailing association, which is a yacht club, whose members are RAF. In the same way, the white ensign cannot be flown on a private boat, except if its owner is a member of the Royal Yacht Squadron.

The RNSA, however, has a warrant to wear the blue ensign.

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Vaghan,

Merged as requested.

Regards

Alan

[MauriceMynah]

So, it is now an offence to fly the Union Jack (and yes, that is now recognised as an acceptable name for our flag) but not now an offence to fly the Jolly Roger. What about Union Jack bunting? Is flying that an offence? Is there a difference between flying a flag on a boat and a boat wearing one?

Wearing medals that have not been earned is different. How do I "earn" the right to fly the Union Jack? How do I earn the right to fly the flag of St. George?

I'm with Robin on this. Time to chill.

[TheQ]

Retired members of the RAF may now be a member of RAFSA and fly the ensign. 

And I've just found its not just etiquette...

"By Section 4 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, it is an offence to hoist on board any ship or boat belonging to any British subject certain colours, flags and pendants without a Permit from Her Majesty the Queen or from the Secretary of State for Defence. The maximum penalty is one thousand pounds for each offence. Among the prohibited flags are the Union Flag, the White Ensign, the Blue Ensign (plain or defaced) and the Red Ensign with any defacement. The prohibition applies to any ship or boat belonging to any British Subject wherever it may be, and so extends not only to tidal waters but equally to rivers, lakes and inland waters generally."

For the full details http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/FLAGs/gb~yacht.html#condo

[TheQ]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

So, it is now an offence to fly the Union Jack (and yes, that is now recognised as an acceptable name for our flag) but not now an offence to fly the Jolly Roger. What about Union Jack bunting? Is flying that an offence? Is there a difference between flying a flag on a boat and a boat wearing one?

Wearing medals that have not been earned is different. How do I "earn" the right to fly the Union Jack? How do I earn the right to fly the flag of St. George?

I'm with Robin on this. Time to chill.

MM

Bunting are not recognised as flags so you're ok on that one. A flag flies individually from a flagpole, (also rarely one above another)  bunting is on a string.

You can't earn the right to fly the Union Jack on a boat as that's reserved for Royal Naval Vessels. However as a subject of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland you are entitled to fly the Union Flag on land.

As far as I can see the plain flag of St George is not a restricted flag so you can fly that as you please. But not if there is a union flag in the top flagpole corner as it then becomes the white ensign.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

 

So, it is now an offence to fly the Union Jack (and yes, that is now recognised as an acceptable name for our flag) but not now an offence to fly the Jolly Roger. What about Union Jack bunting? Is flying that an offence? Is there a difference between flying a flag on a boat and a boat wearing one?

 

MM, I am getting used to your sense of humour  but all the same you have posed some questions that need answers :-

You can fly the Union Flag on shore, pretty much how you like including festooning your house with bunting if ever Norwich win another football game but its use afloat is different and that is why it's name is different. As I mentioned earlier, it is only worn (at the Jack-staff) of a British warship, to distinguish it as such.

Warships don't fly club flags : they wear an ensign and a jack, which are called  colours. This is why sunrise in the Navy is called morning colours. They are "worn" because the ship is announcing her nationality by hoisting her colours.

Other flags are "flown" such as yacht club pennants or signal flags.

As to the Q's comment about the banner of St George, I imagine you might be able to fly it at a masthead as a form of "house flag" but only the Little Ships of Dunkirk have the right to wear it at the jackstaff when under way. Even a warship only wears a jack when under way in very special circumstances - usually when escorting the Sovereign. Have another look at Robin's film of the Navy in Yarmouth with BA. When the Navy slipped their moorings, they ceased to be "not under way" and lowered their jacks. MTB 102 however, continued to wear the banner of St George at the Jack as she left harbour. This is her unique right as one of the "Little Ships".

If you think this is all "old hat" and doesn't matter any more on Salhouse Broad, for all I know you are probably right, but I prefer to have the pleasure of getting the use of the flags right as they are the symbol of our fascinating maritime history.

[TheQ]

Is not the " Little ships" flag the cross of St George defaced by the arms of Dunkirk? Ah just found a reference, the little ships flag is a house flag on the yard arm the cross of St George (plain ) is on a jack at the bow

[Vaughan]

There are two. The one flown at the gaff is defaced, but at the jackstaff it is the plain banner of St George.

[Timbo]

I must add I'm a bit pedantic about some things...dinner jackets the main one! White dinner jackets to be exact. You can guarantee that at any black tie 'do' some nimrod will stroll into the shore venue wearing a white dinner jacket. Kilts is another...'oh I'm entitled to wear this tartan because I'm one sixteenth scottish on my mother's side by a friend of my great x 30 grandfather' doesn't wash with me...perhaps it's because if I followed that convention I'd be wearing a Kippah, sporran, flat hat and probably bike clips!

Now then, Uncle Albert is a vexillologist and as a consequence we have quite a few flags and pennants on the boat. There's the forum flag, the RNLI flag, the Lincolnshire County flag, red ensign, Tudor Ensign. Can someone explain where and in what order we display these? The red ensign is being replaced by the Tudor Ensign for obvious reasons, but what order and what side of the motorboat mast do we display the others?

 

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, Timbo said:

Can someone explain where and in what order we display these? The red ensign is being replaced by the Tudor Ensign for obvious reasons, but what order and what side of the motorboat mast do we display the others?

None of the flags you mention belong to yacht clubs, so luckily the seniority, or pecking order, need not apply.

If your boat is not British registered, I don't think there is an actual obligation to wear a red ensign, so your Tudor flag could replace that, at the stern, if you wish. To me this would obviously be my House Flag, to be flown at the masthead. If you have a flag mast on the fore cabin top, with a little yard-arm, this is the place. You can also use the Tudor flag as a jack, on a mast at the bow, as ships normally use their house flag as a jack.

Other flags would go on the yard of the flag mast, with whatever you think is the senior, on the starboard yard.

I can't imagine what MM is going to say to this!

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

So, it is now an offence to fly the Union Jack (and yes, that is now recognised as an acceptable name for our flag) but not now an offence to fly the Jolly Roger. What about Union Jack bunting? Is flying that an offence? Is there a difference between flying a flag on a boat and a boat wearing one?

Wearing medals that have not been earned is different. How do I "earn" the right to fly the Union Jack? How do I earn the right to fly the flag of St. George?

I'm with Robin on this. Time to chill.

How do I earn the right to fly the flag of St. George?

Be an Ingerland supporter or a boat that went to Dunkerque.

Chill? But why, none of us are uptight about the topic, are we? Interested, yes, but hardly in a state that calls for chilling! If folk want to do it their way, to ignore our proud history and customs then so be it. 

As for earning rights, both my father and grandfather fought for me to have the right to fly our national, maritime ensign. The British merchant fleets that wore the Red Duster through absolute hell during WWII earned the right for non naval vessels to wear it too, what a superb privilege that my humble boat is now entitled to wear it! 

Vexillology, fascinating topic! It's all here: 

http://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/about-us/about-vexillology/

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I`m going to have to buy some flags now. I was born and brought up  in Kent, so have the rite to fly or wear the flag of Invicta, and now i live in Dorset, so have the right to fly or wear the Dorset flag. Above all, i`l fly the flag of St George, as it`s the flag of England (DON`T EVEN THINK OF MENTIONING FOOTBALL) . Then i`l have the Red ensign on Lightnings jackstaff, and NBN burgee on a detachable pole on the coachroof, and the Brooms ensign on the bow rail pole whatever that may be called, and finally, i had a "Lightning pennat" made in July, being a pennant shape with Lightning in blue, and a gold flash down the middle.

I think with all those flags flying, Lightning may be thought of as a sailing cruiser, so may qualify for reduced tolls?. 

For christs sake, somebody wake me up, i`m obviously having a strange dream?.

[BroadAmbition]

Great thread, interesting reading.  A couple more points.  Yes only RN Warships can fly the 'Jack' but only at the pointy end and ONLY when alongside, never whilst underway.  Dressing lines - there is a set format for these to be made up.  Not that it matters much.  Again 'Dressing Lines' are NEVER flown whilst underway.

However just to muddy the river a tad more, the Royal Yacht Britannia could and sometimes did fly dressing lines whilst underway, the only RN Ship allowed to do this as far as I'm aware, also she was the only ship allowed to fly a 'Jack' on the pointy end whilst underway, however said 'Jack' had a white border round it, probably unique to her.

Griff

[Polly]

I have seen a jack with white border on underway Thames cats and a number of other passenger type boats, mostly on the Thames? 

Brilliant sailed under the Jolly Roger when James (aged 2 1/2) took the helm. Now that I know is illegal, but he had fun.

[JennyMorgan]

The 'jack' with a white boarder is a 'pilot jack' and can even be worn on boats owned by common oiks like myself!

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-pilot.html

[JennyMorgan]

Britannia with all her 'pretties' aloft! 

[Timbo]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

None of the flags you mention belong to yacht clubs

To be honest I think of the NBN as a yacht club...well Boat Club. One that's so exclusive...that it's not exclusive. The yacht club where you don't even have to own a yacht. Our members are so classy they are too good for Lacoste... they'd just go out and nail an alligator to their shirts. So why aren't we a boat club as part of our Network?

[TheQ]

I belong to a couple of Kilt forums (yes there is such a thing and there are a lot more than two) and on  one of them there are members who go into amazing detail over what version of standard of dress should be worn when and where comparing it to "Saxon" dress standards.

 A white dinner jacket ( or Prince Charlie for kilted equivalent) is for "White tie" events, an extremely rare occurance in the UK, though more common in the US. Though what do you think of coloured DJs/ PCs a dark Blue or  Red or green  which used to be more common than they are now.

Thekilt forums also have huge discussions of who is entitled to wear a kilt, but truth be told the kilt worn today is, post 1822 the visit of King George the 4th to Edinburgh and most of the tartans have been invented post 1945. So in reality anyone can wear one, and in the UK as we are subjects of the Queen. you are all "entitled " to wear the Royal Stewart tartan.  If you work for Asda there is even a Walmart Tartan!!!

I myself am often asked why I wear a kilt for formal "do's", I have a very English accent, But my father worked at Edinburgh castle and drops into a Glasgow accent should he meet someone from there. My Sisters speak with a Lothian accent and one works for the first minister of Scotland the other in the National Gallery of Scotland.  My Brother who married in a kilt,  is now losing his Lothian accent as he now lives in Yorkshire, but is fluent in the Gaelic. Oh and Granddad came from Glasgow, and My family has been traced back a very long time in Scotland, (and England and Ireland).

As to NBN being a yacht club I'd also say it is,

Not all Yacht clubs have a premises even today (many started in a pub),

Every club I know of has non sailing members,

Every club I know of spends a lot of time talking about the waters they sail in.

 I belong to two sailing class associations neither has a premises but both can wear flags / pennants on their boats the same as a club.

 

 Fly your NBN Flag proudly...

 

 

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

 

Isn't that a great photo? If only she were still sailing. The flag etiquette is interesting, as there are no "Royals" on board, so she is dressed overall simply as a warship, with an ensign at each masthead except the foremast, which flies the "broad pennant" of the commodore royal yachts. If she got underway now, just as a warship, the dressing lines and the jack will be lowered but she would retain the masthead ensigns, as dressed overall under way.

When the Queen is aboard, she has the royal standard at the mainmast and the admiralty flag at the foremast, as she (and later Prince Philip) is the Lord High Admiral. She also flies the Union Flag at the mizzen mast, in this case as the distinguishing flag of an admiral of the fleet. When under way she still wears the jack as she is carrying the Sovereign on board. Any warships with her will also wear their jacks under way, as they are escorting the Sovereign.

[Vaughan]

Another one to mention is the Black Ensign.

This is often found on large twin engined cruisers on the Upper Thames or in Mediterranean marinas.

This consists of the Blue Ensign, defaced with diesel exhaust.

[Springsong]

On SP we have two ensigns one red and one defaced of the RN&SYC. When I am aboard and Jock isn't I cannot fly the defaced ensign as I am not an RN&SYC member. The defaced ensign must be flown lower the the top of the mast, so for instance cannot be flown from the rear cabin roof ( unless we extend the mast.)

[JanetAnne]

So what should the classic wooden broads cruiser be wearing this season? Not what can she wear or is/not entitled to wear, but more a question wondering if there is etiquette or legislation concerning inland cruising.