Another One Bites The Dust

[kfurbank]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Keith, re those costs, they are apportioned as is seen fit. A lot can hide behind apportionment.

Maybe so Peter, but that is not what was contained in the report that John Packman put his name to. Full text of the paragraph below with my highlights. So whilst I understand what you are saying Peter, are they lying? or are the ACTUAL costs apportioned in line with ACTUAL use? because if they are ACTUALLY apportioned as the big man says they will be in his report, then they DO know the costs involved and should be able to disclose them under FOI. 

Apportionments between Navigation and National Park have been adjusted within the Operations directorate to reflect the proposed apportionment endorsed by the Committee at its last meeting and subsequently approved by the Broads Authority. In addition the apportionment of Legal budgets has been adjusted to reflect the latest actual split of activity (legal costs are always apportioned in line with actual use). Legal budgets are shown within the Chief Executive’s department from 2015/16 to reflect the new structure for this area. All other apportionments are consistent with the principles agreed by the Resources Allocation Working Group.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, kfurbank said:

Apportionments between Navigation and National Park have been adjusted within the Operations directorate to reflect the proposed apportionment endorsed by the Committee at its last meeting and subsequently approved by the Broads Authority. 

The above really says it all. We all knows to our cost that the committee endorses and approves his reports seemingly without question, that probably being one of the biggest gripes that us rhond dwellers have about the system.

[MBA Marine]

11 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

MBA

How many of those staff are seasonable and laid off during the winter months, while they still need engineering staff who incidentally do maintenance work on Private Boats as well they lay of most if not all of their cleaners etc. I for one do not undervalue the hire boats its how most of us started and are an integral part of the Broads but they are no longer the major part of the boating industry they once were.

Fred

Hi Fred,

Some yards will have seasonal cleaners, a few operators might take help to show out dayboats in the summer months, but many do not, those that clean in the summer are drafted to man the paint brush in the winter, small yard have to multiskill.

My business is mostly dealing with private craft but i value very highly not just the revenue but the diversity of people that the tourism brings.

 The hire fleet world is changing, it's evolving but it's still a massive sector to the Broads, the big hitters have very much taken over, the small operators that are still going are finding it hard, social media does not aid this trend as thousands of customers per year saying good things shouts louder than hundreds, and bad reviews are drowned by good ones when the volume of reviewers is so high.  The goliath's that we now have swallow up any land or business that is worthwhile leaving the small fry that fight against the current either paying high rents and or making do with a less than ideal location.  

But still i'm not negative about the change, it just makes me want to try harder.

[ZimbiIV]

As a now owner I have to say I spend less in the Pubs than we did as hirers.

The reason I say this is when we hired it was a holiday and we ate out every day except Thursday ( we ate out of the tins we had brought ).

Now being retired our boat is regarded as a summer home (2 weeks every month), we don't eat out every day at home so don't do it every day at our second home.

So what I am saying is that for the riverside hostelries a hirer is more profitable than an owner.

Without hire boats there will be less choice for the owner.

We do not go abroad often both of use hating the treatment handed out by airports, I enjoy flying, not the 2 hours before being treated as low grade cattle!

When we go abroad we cruise from the UK.

BA is suffering from the 80's business syndrome of the customer is a cash cow and to be exploited.

paul

[rightsaidfred]

ZimbilV

I am sure what you say is true of many of us but what you don't spend in pubs I am sure is made up for by the supplies you buy in local shops and supermarkets, plus the money you put into the service industry maintaining jobs etc.

MBA

I agree regarding small yards but then how many do they employ anyway, its the bigger yards that are the major employers and have the vast majority of boats hence customers and the biggest influence with the BA.

Fred

[ZimbiIV]

RSF, you are right we do spend in local shops but we live in a tourist area (Corbridge) and without visitors no village.

But the attraction to most on the Broads is to be able to moor near a pub and have a drink/meal without having to worry about having to get home.

We would happily spend more on a weeks holiday when hiring, hire/drink/eating out than it costs us to run the boat a year.

Yes, we hired top boats from Silverline and ate out for most meals, but now we do not bring presents back for kids/grandkids as we used to do.

Our most expensive purchases when hiring were 2 Dane originals (cannot afford them now).

During our 14 weeks a year we spend about £200 each week including running costs, a hirer probably spends that on drink alone!

I repeat without hirers, owners would have a less pleasurable place to spend time.

paul

 

[JennyMorgan]

I dread to think what the Broads would be without hirers. Riverside pubs would not be able to survive on weekend trade only so no pubs. The same could be said of the few remaining riverside shops. On the other hand I doubt that many of the yards could survive without private owners. That said, my father used to have a restaurant overlooking Oulton Broad and looking out of his office window he would watch the coming and goings of the Yacht Station over the road. He was quite adamant that the growing private fleet would eventually kill off the hire trade. As far as Oulton Broad is concerned he was quite right, there now being no hire yards there and now only a few left on the Southern Broads.

The view from my father's office:

 

[Oddfellow]

22 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

MBA

How many of those staff are seasonable and laid off during the winter months, while they still need engineering staff who incidentally do maintenance work on Private Boats as well they lay of most if not all of their cleaners etc. I for one do not undervalue the hire boats its how most of us started and are an integral part of the Broads but they are no longer the major part of the boating industry they once were.

Fred

Fred, i think you need a to look rather deeper. Larger yards have seasonal cleaning staff, for sure. For some it's an army of economic migrants; for others it's commonly locals who are mostly part-time anyway. 

For most yards, the bulk of their staff are full-time, year round personnel who need paying on that basis.

To suggest that private work or that mooring subsidises the hire fleet is likely wrong too. The hire business MUST stand on it's own. To have another business pumping money into it so that it can continue is a total madness in business sense. 

The hire industry is not the powerhouse that it used to be. Smaller yards are likely seeing returns diminish and need to invest to see a longer term future; that set against a bunch of local authorities (et al) which seem intent on biting the hands that feed them. 

Freedom has just one seasonal part-time cleaner - all the rest of the work is carried out by a great team of people who are working year-round; sometimes on private work and often not. The point you completely miss is that one person can only paint one boat, fit one bulkhead, service one engine at a time. If they are working on private boats, they cannot be working on a fleet boat at the same time. So, either time is spent on fleet or private, but not both at once; to do that you need to employ more people and that is the largest cost to any business. 

[rightsaidfred]

Andy

While you have the personal  experience  of running a small yard and I readily defer to your knowledge of such its a fact that apart from NBD all the major players have substantial income from their moorings, 4 from brokerages, some from now doing their own boatbuilding including boats for sale and all of them expect their private owners to use their services for maintenance, in some cases even including a penalty clause in the contract for using ooutside contractors,  anyone successful in business knows the secret is to diversify.

Maybe part of the problem for smaller yards is having all their eggs in one basket in a shrinking market, most of the riverside cottages that I pass are also empty for large parts of the year, holiday camps, caravan sites and the holiday trade in general have had to adapt to a changing market where short breaks are now the norm or fail, todays lifestyle for the majority has changed completely to what it was 20 years or more ago  and people in general  are no longer satisfied with what their parents enjoyed.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

In my days we maintained hire-boats in the winter and built private boats during the summer. We never provided moorings but we did provide DIY winter storage. Would we have survived if we hadn't sold out? I don't know the answer to that but the original Waveney River Centre was largely my creation and that is still going strong but what a change from the 'round the bay' speed boat that was the start of Fowlers boatyard after WWII.

[Vaughan]

I would suggest that in terms of numbers of boats per staff member, excluding casual cleaners, the large yards have less staff than the small ones. In France we had a budget of 8 boats per yard man employed. Not a lot. I understand it is worse than that, now.

I agree that a hire fleet, in terms of staff, must be a stand alone operation, but the business if possible, must diversify and the obvious way is private moorings as this will also generate private maintenance. The bigger operations have their own dedicated staff for this and in the case of Richardsons, even a separate business - Moonfleet.

As to riverside properties being un-used in the off season, don't forget that many of them cannot be occupied, by law, in the winter months.

When I worked at Richardsons, most of the casual staff came from RAF Coltishall, so the engines were serviced by Lightning and Jaguar fitters. You can't get better casuals than that!

[Vaughan]

11 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Lovely photo. I would guess 1955? I see the Wards boats still have varnished hulls.

The River Cruiser on the jetty is Forester.

 

 

[rightsaidfred]

Vaughan

With riverside properties I was referring to holiday cottages that are available all year round, in fact some are used far more in winter by anglers than in the summer months, even in Wroxham, Horning and Potter Heigham many are rarely occupied at any time of the year, its just a simple case of what people do or don't want these days and unfortunately rural locations are not top of the agenda apart from niche groups like Anglers, Birdwatchers and walkers.

Fred

[TheQ]

48 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Edited.

When I worked at Richardsons, most of the casual staff came from RAF Coltishall, so the engines were serviced by Lightning and Jaguar fitters. You can't get better casuals than that!

Such was RAF and Military pay back then, during the firemans strike they took all the part time jobs done by the RAF down at the Mars factory in Slough, the firemen were on strike for 100 pounds a week, my take home in the RAF while putting out fires in London was less than 100 pounds a month.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Lovely photo. I would guess 1955? I see the Wards boats still have varnished hulls.

The River Cruiser on the jetty is Forester.

 

 

Interestingly Forester was not built on the Broads, rather she was built down at Southampton. Can't remember much about her ancient history but her history during the 60's & 70's was pretty colourful!

[Oddfellow]

In many cases, private work is separated from fleet work by actually having separate businesses perform each task - it makes real commercial sense to do this. Therefore, the concept of one function propping up another is not accurate. If the hire side of these large concerns could not stand on it's own for long, the hire would go to be replaced by services that were profitable. 

You say that NBD dosen't have a large area of private moorings; true. But it has more bites of the tourism cherry than virtually all other businesses. There's the Car Park, River trips, Day Boats, Picnic Boats, Waterside Accommodation, Restaurant. 

Diversification is certainly the way to survive; farming has known this for a long time now. But for smaller yards, the ability to offer a diverse range of services is massively limited by location, size of land available, draconian planning rules and more. 

Going back to the demise of City Boats, the company has been slimming down for a while. The river trips ceased last year, the hire fleet had dwindled to just three boats and the owners were simply looking to do something else. You might blame a lack of investment in the past and who can say? I do know that without updating the fleets when you can, you run a real risk of losing future ground. Keeping just behind the pack leaders is what is necessary for a small yard or to specialise in a niche product that is not offered elsewhere. It would be extremely difficult to keep in-line with the pack or even ahead without a massive investment programme that most smaller operators simply could not achieve. In fact, to put it very succinctly, where do you buy new mouldings from now? Alpha and Aquafibre has gone, Richardsons won't sell you one, Barnes has only just gone into production; Ferry is now using Haines' facility and no small yard is likely to have access to new products. 

[Labrador]

22 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

When I worked at Richardsons, most of the casual staff came from RAF Coltishall, so the engines were serviced by Lightning and Jaguar fitters. You can't get better casuals than that!

Hi Vaughan

Talking to an ex-Woods engineer, some time ago, he related that one or two of those same RAF casuals used to 'clock in' at Richardson's, whizz down the road and also 'clock in' at Woods and work between the two all day. Now that really is double time!

[MBA Marine]

57 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

where do you buy new mouldings from now? Alpha and Aquafibre has gone, Richardsons won't sell you one, Barnes has only just gone into production; Ferry is now using Haines' facility and no small yard is likely to have access to new products. 

Wroxham marine would supply a bare Sheerline, but could a small operator afford the investment? fairly sure that would be a no. The Mouldings are less than half the investment, Engine, stern gear, doors and windows come at huge cost before fitting out.

But if anyone does want a 16' open launch 16' day boat or a 21' picnic boat feel free to ask!  

[LondonRascal]

I have been trying for some time to get a couple of friends who have never been on a boat up to the Broads.  One agreed earlier in the year and attended the meet at Salhouse, and since then hired a cruiser from Barnes Brinkcraft with his partner and had a week – even venturing south as far as Reedham.  He now is keen to return in the Spring.

Of course now he will talk about boats and what I might recommend would be a nice one to try next and so on, yet this perplexes others and ask things like “So Robin what happens when you want to shower” or “So you can cook on the boat?” there is a real fear that if you should venture on a boat for the first time it will be like a floating tent with nothing – or the water is really deep and dangerous and they might feel ‘sea sick’.

Perhaps the most surprising factor is how few people really seem to know about ‘The Broads’ what it is and where it is – Norwich they may associate with the Cathedral and understand where Norfolk is but know that there is a network of rivers and shallow lakes with boats you can hire nope.

So really it is awareness that needs raising and not through television adverts – but through Social media and online advertising to make people aware this area is there.

The thing is that costs and who picks up the tab? Perhaps instead of booking agencies or the Broads Authority moving into tourism, an independent not for profit organisation for Norfolk be formed that collects some funds from businesses - be it boating or land based, pubs, shops, attractions etc in the area (the more the less each would need to contribute) and such was used purely to promote the area generally to a wider audience though the Internet’s many different channels from adverts, websites, social media and so on.

[kfurbank]

Robin, you mean something like this? Check out the back page.

http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/Launch.aspx?EID=d9a96eb9-0854-4b69-ae8e-f25c96adc421

Looking at the membership fees, seems value for money for the larger businesses, now where have we heard similar recently? Wonder who the chairman is?

http://www.enjoythebroads.com/broads-tourism

[LondonRascal]

Forgive me if this sounds really left-field and prone to failure, but the idea I had as mentioned above would not be a website.  They are ok for sure, but they cost money to develop, host and just have sitting there. In a case of an area promotion they often appear no more than a place with 'sponsored place holders' for local businesses much like a glossy online directory with some editorial here and there. 

Businesses who then see little increase in revenue after signing up and having their advert or listing wonder why and then understand why since the website might have very few hits verses the amount they may be paying for putting their business on it.

A smoother easier way with greater reach is simply to tap into existing platforms that people will see.  You Tube and Facebook.  

Create a ‘brand’ and then a page for people to like, that then is the 'website' and that has cost nothing - but allows a good interaction with potential visitors to the area. The biggest pull will be short 15-20 second video adverts before videos on You Tube and within Facebook as people scroll through their time line. Facebook especially can target adverts to a group of people better than Google and the tools to do so are pretty powerful. 

Effectively what would happen is local business pay into a having ‘collective  online video advertising’ for a general area (such as the Broads) linked to a single Facebook page that they can then also post to, interact with and so on. 

Imagine if you will Love The Norfolk Broads Facebook Group was not a group but a brand that had people come to and from there may see posts from Barnes Brinkcraft that could promote an offer they may have on, or just do special only for peoplee who like the brands Facebook page.

It would spread and have its own momentum but the advertising could be a case of one month targeting people in London who are single and aged 25-35 but the following month people in Manchester who are married and 40-55 years old. 

Here is an example video for North Norfolk

 

 

[MBA Marine]

Robin,

I like your idea's very much, but I would question how it could help 'the little guy' there are as many know FB groups and you don't have to frequent them for long before reading 'What's the best yard' then there is a wave of support from those who have the most customers due to the size of their business, at this point the large business with already a large slice of market share gobbles up yet another customer.

Also with social media its easy for words to be taken the wrong way people can come across abrupt (i do often!), some people are so desperate to be seen that they shout very loudly not always with tact when often they should be seen but heard not so much.

Agreed any positive promotion for the area would be a good thing but i think it risks just further strengthening the big players as they finish of the last small businesses. 

[LondonRascal]

In the online world, it is possible for a small business to appear far more large and complex than it really maybe – through a website and social media channels.

The problem with Facebook Groups is they are, in my opinion, a bubbling caldron of people many of who are literally itching to pounce the moment a question is thrown up. An example:

“What time is best to cross Breydon Water next Wednesday?”

The fist 3 or 4 replies will usually be the same – but by reply 6 an ‘off topic’ reply will come in saying something like:

“Great pub near the Yacht Station in Yarmouth” 

By comment 10 a new sub-discussion will have begun merging in a messy mix from pubs a photo of two of some food warnings about hitting bridges and what the tides can do.  All this may have taken perhaps 20 minutes to occur and like Sheep let out with his Wool shaved off, the person who asked the question is left baffled and confused what to think and what just happened. 

Therefore it is not a nice place for a business to try and be in and people will tend to be like that Sheep – following the flock.  Facebook groups provide something rather unique to people – the ability to be noticed and liked and that hits a strong cord with many which is why they are so popular (and Facebook is generally)

But I do not envisage a Group – but a branded page – it should be simple and striking and very much concentrate on a new positive image past the usual clichés that the Broads or Norfolk have.  Off the top of my head a logo that stands out and a clean clear message of what the area can provide.  The administration would come from people needing to moderate the page, but it would be the landing page if you will, for those who may have clicked the video so it would be an ideal place for a small business to interact and provide offers to potential new customers – people who are unlikely to have heard of the Broads  before.

The only downside? New people to something do tend to ask enumerable questions. One chap who commented several times over a period of days over several of my videos took a while to grasp what a fuel deposit was, what sort of boat might be good to hire, and could you go to Yarmouth in a week..But patience and time answered all his points. 

The biggest issue and cost would be the right creative team to make the right style and type of video adverts to capture people but even here it could be an idea to have such made by Media students who need to make such as part of their course, to be able to say 'here is a campaign video I made for Broads seen by x thousands of people' seems an idea...

[marshman]

Trouble also Robin is that none of my younger children, and I have two, have any interaction with Facebook at all!! They don't use it, look at it, or correspond with their mates on it!! They complain that Facebook is for "oldies" !!!

[kadensa]

'even here it could be an idea to have such made by Media students who need to make such as part of their course, to be able to say 'here is a campaign video I made for Broads seen by x thousands of people' seems an idea...'

Strange to advocate a course of action which may result in one set of professional people losing work in order to save another.