Life Jackets

[VetChugger]

Perhaps you are able to control your slips then Robin?? If I slipped on the gunnels, be it ice or whatever, I can esily picture my head catching the side of the boat or quayside as I went in. I really think it is a tad foolhardy to assume you will make a graceful, non contact exit from your boat!

[LondonRascal]

That was my point, fall off boat, hit concrete quay heading, roll off into water (how unlucky would you need to be there) equally, slipping on the boat, landing on it (head first) or catching the side of it on the way in and doing so hard enough to render you unconscious - not just a cut to the forehead, or a nasty wallop etc but actually out of it completely.

This is banded about so often when life jackets are discussed as if it is a common occurrence that many have had happen to them upon falling in and I wonder why it is brought up when, I think in truth, it is a very rare occurrence to happen to someone - especially on the Broads.

Many a person can surly recall a tale of them falling in or someone they know and can state how the life jacket saved them - but I have never known a story of someone on the Broads fall in, hitting themselves on the head as they did and rendering them unconscious as a result. 

So my only point being when this topic comes up be it here or elsewhere I always wait for reference to be made to 'falling in  unconscious after hitting their head.' but can someone recount a situation they know on the Broads where this actually happened?

[Matt]

2 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

Hi Matt,

The best way is one hand for the boat and one hand for yourself.

Regards

Alan

Why do you think I was hanging one handed from a handrail?!?!

 

[Wussername]

19 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

That was my point, fall off boat, hit concrete quay heading, roll off into water (how unlucky would you need to be there) equally, slipping on the boat, landing on it (head first) or catching the side of it on the way in and doing so hard enough to render you unconscious - not just a cut to the forehead, or a nasty wallop etc but actually out of it completely.

This is banded about so often when life jackets are discussed as if it is a common occurrence that many have had happen to them upon falling in and I wonder why it is brought up when, I think in truth, it is a very rare occurrence to happen to someone - especially on the Broads.

Many a person can surly recall a tale of them falling in or someone they know and can state how the life jacket saved them - but I have never known a story of someone on the Broads fall in, hitting themselves on the head as they did and rendering them unconscious as a result. 

So my only point being when this topic comes up be it here or elsewhere I always wait for reference to be made to 'falling in  unconscious after hitting their head.' but can someone recount a situation they know on the Broads where this actually happened?

Agreed. The following is more often the case:

Cold Shock Response lasts for only about a minute after entering the water and refers to the affect that cold water has on your breathing. Initially, there is an automatic gasp reflex in response to rapid skin cooling. If the head goes underwater, water may be breathed into the lungs during the gasp.

Add to the mix early spring when holiday makers start to venture forth and the weather cold. However the water is very cold. people will wear anoraks and thick pullovers. 

Plus the tides that run through GY, Reedham, St Olaves...........................

These are the issues people need to be aware of.

 

Andrew

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, LondonRascal said:

I always wait for reference to be made to 'falling in  unconscious after hitting their head.' but can someone recount a situation they know on the Broads where this actually happened?

No Robin, I freely admit that I cannot, not on the broads I can however remember an incident I was victim of from the canals. I was locking, and paying insufficient attention. it was a hydraulic lock mechanism and I was winding it too fast. the lock handle came off the machine swung round and hit me on the top of my head. I was out cold, no LJ but I was lucky, I fell the other way out like a light. no harm done.

My point is that it was an incident that I hadn't previously considered. It happened , I got away with it.

The OP is planning to step from a small cruiser onto a dinghy, something I have done often. It is not the most stable situation. 'head banging' IS a real possibility. also he may be cruising single handed in the future.

He has recognised the danger and has asked advice. I see no advantage of the manual system over the auto one in this case. Do you?

I do agree with you in that there are those who advise wearing LJs when anywhere within five miles of water over 12cm deep. There are those who will try to impress with their sage comments about impending death. I am not one of these. I do fully agree with Gin-bottle. He reckons an LJ is a good idea for what he is planning to do. So do I. !!!

 

 

[Regulo]

21 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

 the lock handle came off the machine swung round and hit me on the top of my head.

That explains a lot!

[diesel falcon]

Many a person can surly recall a tale of them falling in or someone they know and can state how the life jacket saved them - but I have never known a story of someone on the Broads fall in, hitting themselves on the head as they did and rendering them unconscious as a result. 

i know off one person who fell in getting on a boat ,and broke a rib or two, in his case an auto inflating lg would have killed him , he was pulled out from under a dive deck, if he had an auto life jacket on chances are you wouldn,t have been able to get him out as he would be more pinned to the dive deck(reedham)

It,s all chance the same risk every time you get in a car.....people die everyday .....tommorow will it be you?

[Baitrunner]

As I said take your chance and make your own decisions. 

That way you can only blame one person. 

[Vaughan]

This is a really good thread isn't it? A serious debate on a very serious subject, based not on educated theory but on the real experience of real boating people.

I would not like you to think I am against life-jackets, as I am not. It is just that safety, in all life, is not just a hi-vis jacket and a hard hat : you also have to learn how to be safe in your environment. I am always amazed - even nowadays - how many people spend all their working life on a boatyard and yet they, literally, cannot swim a stroke to save their lives. In the early days of Hearts just after the war, almost all the staff were ex Navy and one of them had had two ships torpedoed under him. Of the seven men who worked there full-time, not one of them knew how to swim - yet I cannot remember any of them ever falling in the river. They were completely familiar with their environment and knew how to work safely in it.

The "trial run" on a hire boat is not just how to handle a boat : it is also to tell you how to handle yourself, when you are on the boat. Even such a thing as pushing the bow off the bank with a boathook must be done safely, by using the blunt end and only pushing off with one hand, because the other hand is holding on to a rail. That way if the boathook slips on the bank side, you won't end up face forward in the river!

I totally agree with MM that getting into a dinghy from a boat on a mud weight is  the right time to wear a lifejacket. Might also consider fitting a boarding ladder on the transom to make this easier? I also agree with Robin about the rarity of actually being rendered unconscious. I find that, when you suddenly realise that you have lost your balance, and there is no way back, in that split second you actually decide to jump in, rather than fall in! I also particularly agree with Wussername about the effect of cold shock when going in the water.

For me, it is not a matter of what type of jacket you should wear or even the actual wearing of it. I still prefer to work towards a point where the risk of actually falling in is minimal.

Perhaps you could call it prevention, rather than cure, and that has always been a good principle. 

 

[ExUserGone]

2 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

That was my point, fall off boat, hit concrete quay heading, roll off into water (how unlucky would you need to be there) equally, slipping on the boat, landing on it (head first) or catching the side of it on the way in and doing so hard enough to render you unconscious - not just a cut to the forehead, or a nasty wallop etc but actually out of it completely.

This is banded about so often when life jackets are discussed as if it is a common occurrence that many have had happen to them upon falling in and I wonder why it is brought up when, I think in truth, it is a very rare occurrence to happen to someone - especially on the Broads.

Many a person can surly recall a tale of them falling in or someone they know and can state how the life jacket saved them - but I have never known a story of someone on the Broads fall in, hitting themselves on the head as they did and rendering them unconscious as a result. 

So my only point being when this topic comes up be it here or elsewhere I always wait for reference to be made to 'falling in  unconscious after hitting their head.' but can someone recount a situation they know on the Broads where this actually happened?

A pretty dumb-assed move to completely poopoo a choice of LJ based purely on the grounds that it's unlikely to happen, the whole idea of safety gear is for when the unlikely event DOES happen, if you thought you were going to fall in the water you would not get on the boat in the first place.(unless fairly stupid or planning on a swim)

The very nature of falling gives a good chance of a whack on the head, especially going from cruiser to dinghy, you don't need to be knocked out to be disorientated especially in the brown waters of the southern broads.

This is coming from someone that has a hammar auto inflation jobbie with crotchstrap and very rarely (ok never) wears it on the broads, I'm not that big on safety but do use it on the sea.

 

[JennyMorgan]

I would like to endorse what Vaughan has just posted.

During the winter, for my wife's sake, I wear a lifejacket when I go out fishing. There will probably be no one to hand if I should go in and doubtless the cold will get me first. As my wife has said she would like a body in order to bring closure. When the water is cold it can take several months for a body to surface and be found.

Crotch straps, uncomfortable at best and how often do I see the staff on the Lock at Oulton Broad not wearing theirs? Probably fine for you ladies but a potential pain in the . . . . . .  for us blokes when worn for long shifts. 

[Matt]

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/749930/Safety-Audit-2015-Report-nc210416.pdf

Interesting read in the circumstances.

 

 

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

Interesting read in the circumstances.

Thank you for that Matt. When you consider the hundreds of thousands who visit the Broads every year, whether on boats or simply standing on the river bank, that is a very good "result".

[JennyMorgan]

How accurate is the 'result' though? 

[Baitrunner]

And no boat fires reported either. I can therefore summise boats do not catch fire on the broads so I shall be getting the candles and kerosene lamps out

or do I deduce that due to safety guidance and the bsc there have been no fires? 

I do wonder how many other incidents didn't get reported? Obviously fatalities would, but then they probably wouldn't have had LJs on!!!

to be honest I have never needed an air bag in the car or seat belt in anger. But I don't doubt they have saved countless lives. And possibly in rare circumstances killed a few people. But I'm still glad I have them. 

[ginbottle]

Well, many thanks for all these helpful remarks and suggestions, also for the sex change, which happened without me feeling a thing...ginbottle, i.e. me, is (or was last time I looked) a female person! I will be using my rowing boat purely for pleasure and exercise, not clambering from the Norman 20, down into the rowing boat! The reason for me wanting a different type of life jacket, is because the old fashioned type are very bulky and I would imagine, quite restrictive when rowing.

There has been such a lot of interesting advice and comments and I have heeded the warnings given.  I agree that the most likely times that I might fall in the river will be getting into the boat and out of the boat, particularly if I have no one around to hold it steady for me! I was born and brought up by the sea, so was taught to swim at a very young age, but realise that fully clothed in icy water, is a different kettle of fish altogether! I absolutely dread falling in, so will be very, very careful. However, accidents do happen, so I will certainly be wearing a life jacket of some sort and keep everything crossed that if I do fall in, that I don't receive a bang on the head and am fully conscious at all times!

[BroadAmbition]

Now then, How many times have I entered the Broads oggin unintentionally during the last 56 years? - I think, the answer is twice, the first time I had a harness with a clothes line on it (I was a toddler) Dad fished me out.  The second time an LJ would have made no difference whatsoever.  Do I wear them? - Yes sometimes, when night navving if out on deck, when messing about in the dinghy, when at sea.  At all other times - rarely if ever.  That is not for me to say if I'm right or wrong, setting a good example or a bad one, it is my decision and my risk assessment.  Newbies / beginners onboard are by their very nature not used to moving around on boats, getting on / off etc so maybe they should wear them a bit more often but that too is their decision.  Children imho are however a different matter and a responsible adult should make the assessment / decision for them.  Oh and Ginbottle - I prefer you as a girly - just the way you are

Griff

[MauriceMynah]

Whoops, very sorry about that G-B.

[MauriceMynah]

3 hours ago, Regulo said:

That explains a lot!

Yeah, suppose it does really.  

[Baitrunner]

And now we know we have another female alcoholic boater in the ranks! God help us 

if you get to row down south hope to see you about!

[BroadAmbition]

And now we know we have another female alcoholic boater in the ranks!    God help us 

Aye and there'll be four more of em onboard 'B.A' 25 - 29th May, with me and two mates to try and keep them 'in-line'

Griff

[Speleologist]

Robin, I think you miss a serious point. On a motor boat, hitting your head is unlikely. On a yacht it is much more possible and has led to fatalities without even going in the water. However there is another factor that is more important. Sudden immersion in cold water can lead to cold water shock. Water temperatures up to 15 degrees can cause this. The sudden intake of breath, loss of muscle control etc can rapidly lead to incapacity or even unconsciousness. If you are absolutely confident of the ability of your crew to get you back on board quickly then this may not be too much of a problem, but the reality is that man overboard recovery is difficult, requires regular practice and usually takes place in circumstances where the rest of the crew are already stressed and not able to function as well as normal. A good lifejacket, fitted with a crotch strap and with a suitable lifting point, particularly if combined with good crew training can be a life saver. At this time of year somebody going in to the water could be unconscious in minutes. And recovery is not easy. How often do we practice man overboard recovery/ How often do we do it with a full size and weight dummy? To do so is a salutary experience.

[Polly]

Recovery is difficult. We had a MOB in 2015, quite a small lady but heavy as lead for recovery, and there were three of us to get her out, with ladder available and all briefed.

Had I been the only one doing the recovery, it wouldn't have been funny at all.

Since then our MOB kit includes a floaty line with clip for lj harness and running through a block with clip for wherever is handiest in the event, usually that would be the boom. I have given myself a better purchase but also the line can go back to the casualty who can then help recover themselves pulling on it with me assuming they are able.

Cold shock? Absolutely right. Debbie was teeth chattering and insisting she was fine. We were trying to get the silver blanket round her and she wasn't really able to cooperate in the few moments after getting her aboard. I had to really insist on getting her into the cabin, out of wet gear and under a duvet, it took quite some time for her to warm up.

[Matt]

9 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

Children imho are however a different matter and a responsible adult should make the assessment / decision for them.  

Indeed but if I tell them to wear one and I am not wearing mine guess what they say?!

 

[Poppy]

11 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Crotch straps, uncomfortable at best ......... Probably fine for you ladies but a potential pain in the . . . . . .  for us blokes when worn for long shifts. 

All I can say in reply is , JM  you must have worryingly large ........and should probably have them checked.  A properly adjusted crotch strap is NOT uncomfortable - I speak from weekly (at least ) experience of wearing an LJ with crotch strap ALL DAY. I wouldn't do different!   The people who object to such a simple precaution ape probably the same ones who don't bother with a kill cord for the outboard either.....