Herbert Woods Have Announced They Are Fitting Smoke And Co Alarms To Their Fleet.

[Viking23]

I feel as though we have made a great step forward, there may be other hire companies that have done this, but Herbert Woods have announced that they are fitting both smoke and CO alarms to their fleet for the new season. 

I like others, have been quite assertive in pushing the benefits of the CO and smoke alarms, and with recent deaths caused by CO we need "a wake up call", excuse the pun. I think this will me a major step forward, well that's Herbert Woods bookings sorted, I hope people support them, and any other hire company that install them.

This doesn't mean that boats not fiited with them are particularly that unsafe, but I personally and it is a personal thing, would sleep better at night knowing they were looking out for me.

Richard

 

 

[deebee29]

That's great news.

we always take our own and still will but once one company fits them I'm sure the others will follow (we are with HW in April so I will let you know)

[Viking23]

7 minutes ago, deebee29 said:

That's great news.

we always take our own and still will but once one company fits them I'm sure the others will follow (we are with HW in April so I will let you know)

If we don't hear from you after your holiday...

[dnks34]

I do think this is a good thing, especially the Co alarms for obvious reasons but knowing how many false alarms i get from my own smoke alarm (every time i open the oven door)  I fear moorings will be awash with people frantically trying to shut the bloody smoke alarms up!! 

[Viking23]

12 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

I do think this is a good thing, especially the Co alarms for obvious reasons but knowing how many false alarms i get from my own smoke alarm (every time i open the oven door)  I fear moorings will be awash with people frantically trying to shut the bloody smoke alarms up!! 

I hope they have the type where you press a button to silence it, rather than the twist and throw overboard type. lol

Also it has been said that quantities of hydrogen given off from charging and discharging batteries can trigger false alarms on CO monitors, but batteries often have vent points that can be connected to vent overboard.

Increased ventilation can also help.

 

[grendel]

oops saw the title and thought, I dont recognise that brand (smoke and Co.)

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Viking23 said:

Also it has been said that quantities of hydrogen given off from charging and discharging batteries can trigger false alarms on CO monitors, but batteries often have vent points that can be connected to vent overboard.

If hydrogen is venting off from a battery on charge, then it is of the lead/acid type which, by strict regulation, must be installed in a sealed box vented at high and low level to outside the boat. If not, the risk is of actual explosion, not just CO!

 

1 hour ago, Viking23 said:

Increased ventilation can also help.

I will take that remark to my grave.

You cannot have enough FIXED VENTILATION in a boat.

[Viking23]

5 minutes ago, grendel said:

oops saw the title and thought, I dont recognise that brand (smoke and Co.)

Actually I might register that name, it will suit a dual alarm lol.

Except the sensors wouldn't be in their ideal positions.

[quo vadis]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

If hydrogen is venting off from a battery on charge, then it is of the lead/acid type which, by strict regulation, must be installed in a sealed box vented at high and low level to outside the boat. If not, the risk is of actual explosion, not just CO!

 

I will take that remark to my grave.

You cannot have enough FIXED VENTILATION in a boat.

Don't think fixed ventilation in a coffin will work Vaughan

[grendel]

Having experienced a battery explosion from charging gasses I can assure you that you dont want to be anywhere near, I was lucky, I was in the drivers seat and the battery in the engine bay of my van, it went bang as I turned the key. battery casing parts flew 30 feet (as did the acid I guess)

[NorfolkNog]

Good move. We are with them in 3 weeks  so it will be interesting to see if they have been fitted by then.

[Viking23]

Just now, grendel said:

Having experienced a battery explosion from charging gasses I can assure you that you dont want to be anywhere near, I was lucky, I was in the drivers seat and the battery in the engine bay of my van, it went bang as I turned the key. battery casing parts flew 30 feet (as did the acid I guess)

Wow, in the Picasso the battery is under the front passenger seat, when I got a new battery I was sure to get one with a vent pipe that went back through the floor.  I wonder how many people are aware of the pipe, and also refit it after say removing it for say charging.

 

[NeilB]

We had a Picasso years ago.  Had a flat battery and had to hunt for the battery!  Positioning the other car to enable the jump leads to reach was like being on the krypton factor!!

[Wussername]

Surely one of the most important issues that should be addressed is that of running engines to charge batteries whilst moored in congested area's.

Andrew

[Viking23]

4 hours ago, Wussername said:

Surely one of the most important issues that should be addressed is that of running engines to charge batteries whilst moored in congested area's.

Andrew

My field of Dreams.

I think the BA will be putting up signage in areas like Ranworth, Womack water and other other congested areas to prevent the running of engines from early evenings to breakfast time at many moorings. There will be additional signage at visitor moorings. This will help people from dying in their sleep. At other times whilst un pleasant, signage alone won't stop it. I think the boat hire companies will be adding to their handbook about the dangers. This just leaves the BSS to incorporate it into their requirements,  time for yet more emails lol I still intend to crack this one lol 

I also think the BA should be leafleting all toll payers at renewal, and short visit toll payers should also have something included in their welcome pack.

If we talk about it, they will come. 

The above comment, inspired by the film "The field of dreams"  "If we build it, they will come." 

In fact some of the above are already in action, expect some changes in 2017.

 

Richard 

Still trying to make that difference.

Edited to add, I feel so passionate about the Carbon Monoxide issue, that I will use it in a new thread. Moderators please feel free to delete the new thread if you think it is unsuitable.  Richard

Edited January 26, 2017 by Viking23

[Bound2Please]

10 hours ago, grendel said:

Having experienced a battery explosion from charging gasses I can assure you that you dont want to be anywhere near, I was lucky, I was in the drivers seat and the battery in the engine bay of my van, it went bang as I turned the key. battery casing parts flew 30 feet (as did the acid I guess)

Also having experienced the aftermath of a railway battery room explosion in the 70's, that couldnt be vented much more, I wouldnt want a lead acid battery on a boat let alone unvented. The said explosion blew the door about 20-30ft in pieces across the track took the end brick wall down. Lucky the floor was covered in acid and also caustic from the nife cells that got destroyed so one neutralised the other. So after having seen this it made it perfect sense that before disconnecting or connecting any thing in a battery room the doors had to be open for at least one hour before the work could take place. This was in the days before H&S as well....

Since that day ive been of the experience that jump starting any vehicle is not really worth the risk as even a flat battery can spark as leads are put on it.

Charlie

[addicted]

Some friends of ours had a Seamaster 27' and one weekend they had both their  adult offspring and respective families on the boat for a weekend so somewhat crowded with bodies bedded  down just about everywhere. During the night the  gas detector, sited in the cockpit, kept going off. Investigations found nothing amiss, On about the 5th occasion of this Mum sussed he culprit, teenage son who was sleeping in the cockpit had had an Indian takeaway for supper and was known to suffer from flatulence at the best   of times!  Solution -  move son's bed, problem solved.

 

 

Carole

[Viking23]

You could collect the gas, compress it, store it and use it to make toast in the morning...

Forget I said that, if some vans using recyled oil smell of chips, what would the toast smell like...or even taste like?

Move the bed to on deck lol

[MauriceMynah]

Never mind vans... just try following Nyx for a while.  

[LondonRascal]

I know Barnes Brinkcraft have these fitted on their boats - at least those that still have gas installations on board.

I think it is fair to say that so far as safety goes, hire boats are about as safe as they get - when you hear tragic news of death caused by CO (by whatever means) I cannot find one such instance be it on the Norfolk Broads, Thames of Canals where it had occurred on a hire boat.

I admit, I have mixed feelings about Herbert Woods doing this - just because it surly brings risk and compliance issues with the perceived added safety. If you publicise the fitting of such alarms, does it say that previous to their fitment there was a danger and now that risk has gone because the alarm is fitted?  Might hirers see the alarm as reason to take more risks ...  "I'm sure it is ok to cover those vents and gaps  to stop those drafts, the alarm will go off if there is a problem,"

But it also becomes a new item to check - are they still there not been nicked for someone to use at home? Are they working, do you replace the batteries each season to be safe or wait until they go flat and rely on the low voltage 'plip' to be heard. If you get lax in this and in time someone did take a risk, trusting the alarm which then failed to work due to no battery/low battery is a risk and then who is to blame?

So yes, it is good but I am cautious in giving too much praise.

[Viking23]

Hi Robin interesting views there, but you have to cast your mind back to when seat belts were first installed, we all thought that people would drive faster, and take more chances, for a small group, that was probably true, it may have been the case with airbags in cars as well.

Seat belts and airbags are well proven to save lives, since they were made compulsory for them to be fitted in cars.

How many people died or were seriously injured by not having them prior to the introduction. They were optional for older cars as retro fits, Halfords sold loads of after market belts. We fitted a pair to the rear of our Austin Ambassador in 1983. We never tested them to see if they worked or not, and in fact we never really needed them. So why bother?  some others might say, but not me.

In the same way, there is a chance that Carbon Monoxide can kill in certain situations, situations that the potential victim has no control over, a bit like driving around a corner in a car and meeting a fast car on the wrong side of the road coming the other way.

Richard

[ChrisB]

CO pellistors have a defined life, normally 7 to 10 years. Battery life is similar. They are cheap and effective. So test up to say 5 years old then replace.

Ionisation smoke detectors are different Americium 241 has a half life of 432 years. But these and the better optical filters should also be replaced at about 10 years as their performance can be seriously impaired by dirt caused by cooking etc in the small confines of a boat. Small insects such as Thrips or Thunderflies are also a problem especially to ionisation detectors. So have a replacement policy, write the install date on the install instructions and keep with your ships papers, replace smoke detector batteries on you birthday or the 1st April when your toll is due. Simple.

[LondonRascal]

Richard you are quite correct in what you say - my fear is just that since Herbert Woods have fitted these to their fleet (and this may even be because of customer feed back) I am looking at things from a 'what if' point of view.

What if a couple hired a boat and tragically they died through CO poisoning.  There would be the EDP articles, the debates and sadness and then a report - and let us assume the report had found evidence that instead of using the boats heating system, they had used the hob and oven as a way to heat the boat - evidence might also be found of ventilation spaces being blocked to prevent drafts.  Following  this there surely would be people asking 'why did the boat not have a CO alarm' there would be more pressure for the BSS to change to make their fitment a requirement and so on but the poor family would be left with very little comfort other than perhaps asking why on earth did they do this in the first place.

Now what if the above happened but the boat had a CO alarm fitted? During the investigation it was found to be wrongly sighted, dust had been allowed to clog the sensor and the battery was low - even if not all these factors came about, suddenly the yard would come into scrutiny - the family of the deceased could have a case of negligence against the yard and a whole new can of worms be opened.

In short, the moment you go fitting such things you've got to be very sure they are all properly situated, and in fine working order and just as you might check the header tank has water and sump has oil on hand over the CO alarms are going to be needing to be checked and recorded on the 'engineering sheet' as being checked 

Iif something happened and you have not got the ability to have evidence from those who are deceased, blame can be shifted and with a non-working alarm perhaps they felt safer that if there was a risk this would sound and they could take action.

So you see I am not saying don't have them, I am just cautious of their use in such a wide scale and over an extended time period in a busy fleet.

[ranworthbreeze]

The testing of these CO/Fire alarms is not much effort by an engineer on a tick sheet, press the test button on every hire and change the battery at the season start.

The fact that there is an alarm aboard has to be a bonus for any hirer.

Many of private boats have these fitted now since the reports of deaths from CO poisoning both on the canals and the Broads.

Regards

Alan

 

[Wussername]

Robin. As you quite rightly say the incidence of CO fatalities is virtually nil with regard to the hire fleets.

I have carried many trial runs over the last thirty years and find that, without exception all new holiday makers and seasoned holiday makers pay particular attention to matters affecting their own comfort. Heating is one of them. All hirers are told how to operate the heating system and told not to block ventilation under any circumstances whatsoever.

Most people are conversant with modern central heating systems in the home where the combustion of fuel takes place. Ventilation exists within the home, they are aware of the consequences of ignoring the need for ventilation.

The holiday maker is also aware that he or she has a duty of care to themselves in all walks of life and if they ignore this fact there can be consequences.

History would seem to endorse the above opinion.

As for the theft of safety equipment, hardly an issue I would have thought. The equipment not being regularly checked. Why wouldn’t it be. A competent engineer follows a routine check list which includes a whole raft of preventative maintenance, and actions. Why would he ignore a simple check on a CO detector or smoke detector.

A holidaymaker having been shown the central heating system, shown the CO alarm system, informed of the necessity of ventilation is hardly likely to deliberately block a purpose built ventilation system.

As for a company’s enthusiasm for installing these detectors, well, low cost feel good factor for the customer, but more importantly it provides another level of protection against our compensation culture. They would be able to demonstrate that they take their duty of care very seriously and should be applauded for their action.

I have only one other comment to make and that is for me the important issue of pollution caused by diesel engines being run at crowded moorings. I wish that the company’s would embrace this issue as enthusiastically as they have done with regard to the CO matter.

They may wish to pay more attention to this matter before legislation takes over, legislation which supersedes the dead letter which exists within the Broads Authorities byelaws on the issue of pollution and noise.

Andrew