Question For Marshman

[Timbo]

I'm currently going through all of my Dad's belongings. He was the 'boy' on the Humber Keel Comrade. He has photographs of various craft from early glass slides to modern prints that he he has collected. In true Uncle Albert fashion he has made a list of the craft he has photos of...such as vessel name, whether it's a sloop, keel or wherry...but has not labelled the photographs themselves. Could you tell me what is the difference between a wherry, a keel and a sloop is please and would their be any difference in how a keel and a wherry were operated?

[Mowjo]

I might be way off! but my guess is a Wherry was for inland waters and the Sloop for coastal hence having a keel!!

[16E]

That lookslike Comrade which is a Keel.  Square rigged used for inland work on the Yorkshire Waterways.

Sloops are fore and aft rigged for estuariland coastal work.  They worked much better into the wind than keels.  Sloops may have one or even two foresails.

Either could be operated by 'man and lad', Uncle Albert was Fred's lad.

Wherries have similar but not the same roots as keels but the loose-footed rig and stepped forwards mast are big differences.

 

 

[marshman]

Timbo   -  a wherry is a pretty generic sort of name but the Norfolk (and Suffolk - PW! ) Wherry is built primarily and specifically for the inland waterways of the Broads. They did go to sea but generally only locally, often loading in Yarmouth Roads. They have a single large sail, loose footed and with a large gaff - they can sail reasonably close to the wind as they had a keel and can tack, although they like a bit of room for that, or the larger wherries do!!

The picture you posted is, I believe, of a Humber Keel and they were very different being generally flat bottomed and with a pair of leeboards. They are usually rigged with a square sail or two, and tended to use the sail only with the wind coming from astern or on the quarter - most of the waterways they used often had towpaths so if the wind was adverse, they could be bowhauled by men or horses. I suspect that even with this sail they could actually sail a bit closer to the wind than I have indicated but they clearly then built some sloop rigged.

Up north the Humber Keel and Sloop Preservation Socy run, or did, a sloop rigged keel which from a distance looked a bit like a small Thames barge - on closer inspection the hull was identical to the keel, more bluff and rounded, and I guess they just rigged them differently to allow them to sail better, particularly in the more open Humber estuary.

A couple of years ago Albion met up with a keel at Cantley and the keel was noticeably bigger, but not as big as a Thames barge which of course spent much of its time actually at sea off the East Coast in the shallow estuaries. Albion carried up to 40 tons, a keel I believe up to 80 and depending on size, even more. Thames Barges tended to serve a wider area but the Norfolk (and Suffolk! ) wherries were generally limited to the Broads and the keels to the Humber and associated waterways.

There are quite a number of generalisations in the above and lots will be along to point these out, but i think its a pretty good outline of the situation!

[Vaughan]

Well done Marshman and I thoroughly agree.

When I consider vessels such as this I always think "North Sea" as there is such a close connection in maritime history between the English east coast and our neighbours in Holland and Scandinavia.

The photo of the Humber Keel shows that she is a "lee-boarder". An obvious connection to the Dutch "Botter". Even "keel" is a word of Dutch origin. I know a couple who own a Humber Keel (in sailing condition) on the Canal du Midi and the similarities to Dutch steel barges of the same era are notable.

When the Vikings came to the east coast they didn't just have "longships"; they also had trading barges and it is said that the closest approximation to this is the Norfolk reed barge. One of these is preserved at How Hill and they were used as rowing ferries, such as at Coldham Hall, well into the early 60s. The Norfolk Keel is said to have developed from these and had a square sail on a central mast, very much like the Humber Keel, although the Norfolk version had a hull with very much better sailing qualities.

The Norfolk wherry naturally evolved from this, when the "fore and aft" rig was invented.

The word wherry means work-boat and there were one or two versions, particularly in the Thames Estuary and also in places on the south coast such as Southampton Water. Over the centuries the word has gone out of use except here, so "wherry" has become synonymous with Norfolk (and Suffolk, Peter).

"sloop" is a word that I have not heard in relation to a work-boat. As I understand it, a sloop is a yacht (another Dutch word) with a single mast and a fore-and-aft rig, either gaff or "bermudian" having one mainsail and a single foresail. The keel and wherry did not rig foresails, although wherries are known to have carried them when acting as lighters for ships anchored off the Yarmouth Bar. 

In this respect, the wherries were doing exactly the same job as the Thames "lighters".

Sailing rigs get confusing as there are lots of opinions as to definition, but I was always told that a sloop is single masted with a main and foresail. Evening Flight is in Lloyds Register as a "bermudan sloop". A cutter is similar but with a jib as well as a foresail and possibly a flying jib. A vessel with two masts can be a ketch, a yawl or a schooner but perhaps this is getting off the subject!

[JennyMorgan]

That pedantic old bugger is here! Norfolk Wherries have been known to go as far a field as The Fens (Albion), Portsmouth as well as mainland Europe (Gypsy and Ardea) and quite a few to Southwold and up to Halesworth. If you can imagine such a thing a plywood wherry even went to Africa, okay so it was put together out there. Ardea spent several years as a knocking-ship in Paris. Norfolk wherries, and Suffolk ones, have certainly got about! It's almost all in Roy Clark's Blacksailed Traders, often on E-Bay.

Re the comments about Suffolk built wherries, Ardea & Albion for example. Interestingly a greater percentage of Suffolk built wherries have survived than have Norfolk ones, unless someone knows better!

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Interestingly a greater percentage of Suffolk built wherries have survived than have Norfolk ones

It must be something in the water!

[Timbo]

Thanks guys, I will be able to make a start on sorting out that particular box of photographs now.

The image in the OP is of Comrade. When Dad was her 'boy' I'm fairly sure she no longer had her mast and was engine driven. Having said that for Dad's 50th birthday I hired Comrade for a family outing...much to the chagrin of her crew.
"We like these trips to be educational you know!" said the skipper.
"Oh it will be!" muttered my Mum.
As Comrade got under way Uncle Albert was shaking his head at the number of crew on board. As Comrade moved out into the Humber he instructed the family to sit down quickly. Bang! Comrade was all over the place. Not what I was expecting.

Now as you guys will have realised I do not have much clue regarding sailing. But the Humber looked smoother than I've ever seen Breydon. Comrade was all over the place. Fortunately I don't get sea sick but my mother in  law at the time was looking greener than she usually did. After twenty minutes the 'skipper' asked Uncle Albert if he would like a 'go' at the tiller. Like a flash Uncle Albert was up and suddenly in charge.

"That's in the wrong place it should be here, tighten that up, slacken that off, what the hell are those doing all the way up the bow? Bring them back down here! Fasten them off on that rail...that's why the rail's worn there!" I've missed out the jargon as it would be wrong but you get the picture. All the while the skipper kept telling Dad that Fred himself had taught him how to sail Comrade and he was very experienced and had done extensive research. Soon the crew and the skipper were scurrying all over putting 'ropes' where Uncle Albert wanted them. All the while Dad was calmly explaining that this was how Fred Schofield the original owner of the Comrade kept her and the reasons why. With a final 'thud' Comrade seemed to stop bucking and glided. The skipper had an expression that would sour milk.  As I say when Dad was the 'boy' I'm sure Comrade did not have her sails but Uncle Albert certainly seemed to know what he was talking about.

One of the crew took us for a tour below explaining the restoration. In the bow there was a shelf which they told us was a rope store. 
"Nah that was my bed!" said Uncle Albert expertly knocking out a small piece of timber about the size of a cigarette packet. Inside was a packet of Players cigarettes and a photograph of my Mum as a very young girl with her Grandfather the lock keeper at Sykehouse. Dad handed them over to the spluttering crew member and put the square of wood back.
"I forgot them when Fred dropped me off at Hull to join the RN".

Uncle Albert enjoyed his day out immensely. We saw comrade again at Whitby. The artist that painted Comrade's portrait was a teacher at My Mum's school so one of Dad's prized possessions was the very first numbered and signed print.

 

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

It must be something in the water!

Suffolk's water is always passed thus contains a fair proportion of Adnams.

[Vaughan]

Quite fascinating, thank you Timbo.

[JennyMorgan]

Tim, wonderful stuff and much appreciated. I have a feeling that one or two keels still carried their sails into the 1960's. sure that I read that somewhere.

Just googled, apparently it was 1949 rather than 1960 that the last one was under sail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humber_Keel

[16E]

Hi Tim,

According to Fred Schofield, in his book, Comrade had an engine fitted before WWII.  I think it was an Ogle.  In WWII she was re-engined with a 21 HP Lister and re-engined again in 1953 with a 31HP Lister.

[Timbo]

So a quick bit of math needed then with Uncle Albert born 1942, leaving school at 15 that makes it 1957 he was on Comrade so the 31 HP Lister. Makes sense then Dad becoming a stoker. I have his references from Fred Schofield which made me chuckle. "An able lad, smart enough when washed, will do us proud.'

The power of the NBN forum...Monday we are starting on world poverty, but what shall we do Tuesday afternoon?

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Timbo said:

The power of the NBN forum...Monday we are starting on world poverty, but what shall we do Tuesday afternoon?

In my case I shall be grandson sitting. Perhaps we can have a chat about Donald Trump?

[marshman]

The Humber Keel that met up with Albion was if I recall correctly called Daybreak and whilst converted to living accommodation had been rigged with the square sails, like the originals, for sailing.

The Humber Keel and Sloop Preservation Society seem to have a barge rigged with the square sails and a sloop rigged one too.

 

[TheQ]

I suspect that with Uncle Albert knowing how to set the boat up for sailing, that Comrade kept her rig, even with being fitted an engine. Why waste money on diesel when wind is for free..

[JennyMorgan]

Another factor is trim, whether under engine or sail a canny crew would know how to get the best out of the hull. Thames barges, for example, flex at sea so the distribution of weight/trim is crucial, must surely be the same for the Comrade.

[ChrisB]

23 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

That pedantic old bugger is here! Norfolk Wherries have been known to go as far a field as The Fens (Albion), Portsmouth as well as mainland Europe (Gypsy and Ardea) and quite a few to Southwold and up to Halesworth. If you can imagine such a thing a plywood wherry even went to Africa, okay so it was put together out there. Ardea spent several years as a knocking-ship in Paris. Norfolk wherries, and Suffolk ones, have certainly got about! It's almost all in Roy Clark's Blacksailed Traders, often on E-Bay.

Re the comments about Suffolk built wherries, Ardea & Albion for example. Interestingly a greater percentage of Suffolk built wherries have survived than have Norfolk ones, unless someone knows better!

I may be wrong Peter but my understanding of Ardea's time on the Seine was as accommodation for "Working Girls" and that the "knocking" was actually a land based enterprise.

[JennyMorgan]

Chris, you could well be right. Hearsay on my part!