gas bottle freezing

[smitch6]

hiya i use the red bottle's for our heating, hot water and cooking

in the summer its fine we use about 19kg a month

but in the winter we use 19kg a week

trouble is the top of the bottle is freezing

well all of it is actually but don't think the bootle freezing is a problem just the top

where you turn the bottle on and off

the reg and pipe is lagged with foam wrap and thermowrap so that should be ok

i have also bought a cylinder jacket (the red one)

wrapped that round the bottle and all over the top etc

but to no avail once the temp dropped below 0c it froze again and luke warm water

cooker dims when heating comes one

so i know the gas it struggling

we can't use the shower because the waters too cold

any ideas how to stop this freezing

ppl have said wrap towels etc round it

but i have that jacket that should be batter than towels etc

the red bottles should be good down to -15c i thought

maybe they are duds lol

any ideas folks please asap

[Antares_9]

I would have thought that lagging it was the last thing you should do as it prevents the ambient air to internal temperature differential transferring heat even when quite cold outside. You can buy a heated jacket for the cyls which may help if on shore power. Another thing is the flow taken during high consumption in winter requires more heat to evaporate the gas at just the time less outside heat is available to do it. You may be able to solve or improve the situation by having a seperate cyl for the heating if there is room for one.

[smitch6]

a separate line coming in isn't really an option unfortunately

there is room for 2 bottles in my storage box on the back of the boat

but everything is in the forward cabin so routing a new pipe would be impossible without ripping everything out

[Guest]

Hi Steve, The bottle takes the heat from the air around it to turn the liquid in to gas. So you need to insulate the bottle in a housing and supply a small amount of heat ie 100 watt light bulb. If the liquid does not turn to gas it will be slow to pass through the regulator and pipework. Quick fix put an electric blanket over the bottle or pop your lead light in the storage box. ( not a low energy bulb though)

Jonathan

[smitch6]

ok sounds good idea

but...........

the box i have my bottle's in is made of decking offcuts

so there is gaps all over it like decking

it designed to blend in rather than shove it in your face

and the whole idea to change everything to gas was to try and reduce the leccy bill lol

a 100w bulb will cost us lots and we are on a meter now

as for the other reply having a seperat supply for water, heating etc

impossible because i have a combi boiler which does heat and water

and then a separate cooker

so i can't have a dif line for water, heating etc

its the boiler thats just being used normally and it trips each night

so we wake to freezing temps while i have to push reset button

[Guest]

Chuck an old duvet over the box and stick in a 60 watt bulb even at marina rates of 15pence per kwh will only cost about a penny an hour to run and you could always add a thermostatic plugin to turn it off above 2c.

Jonathan

[jimbo]

It could be your regulator is the source of the problem here as I've not known Propane bottles fail to gas at the temps we are having at the moment.

[Boaters]

It may sound stupid,but it is Propane you have fitted ?? as I have a Butane bottle that is reddy-orange color .I have yet to fit my winter bottle,I think I am right in that Propane has a male end fitting and butane a female fitting with a nut I also think only Butane has the push on fitting.Hope I am being of some help,but that is how I recall it from caravanning days when we went out all winter .

[Stranger]

hi steve the trouble with propane is that if theres any leak of gas it will cause freezing check the connections and that the pipe and crimp is in good condition the rubber pipe can become pourous as well this will also cause freezing

[smitch6]

sounds good but not 100% sure

i am a bit dubious incase something catches fire

esp with the gas bottles lol

i know u're not meant to cover a light shade as the heat will catch it alight

i suppose being outside it will never get that hot

seems strange tho because the bottle is lagged so not sure

i may be completely off line here and don't mean to sound doubtful

or negative esp when u've taken the time to offer advice

but the bottle is lagged well

is that lagging holding the cold air in then?

i thought it would help keep it warm

its the top of the bottle thats freezing as i put a hair dryer on it for 5 mins and heated it and hey presto back to normal

the rest of the bottle was still iced up

that worked for a good few hours but temps gone down more again now so back to freezing

so annoying

[smitch6]

yes defo propane

butane doesn't come in 19kg

and it has the male female fitting

yes butane has the quick release one's

the connections are all ok new rubber hose solids joins

i always make sure the nuts etc are done up really tight when changing bottles

i'm an ex builder so have always treated gas with loads of respect

[jimbo]

Where abouts is the regulator situated?

[smitch6]

it screws into the bottle

and the bottles are outside on the back of the boat

[jimbo]

In that case I would seriously consider changing the regulator, as a first attempt at curing this problem.

[smitch6]

i was then looking at the auto changeover type

that way when 1 bottle freezes it will change it automatically

they are only about £43 on ebay

so hopefully will solve the problem

[donnygeoff]

This might sound silly, and probably will.

But what about the things that you keep your beer fermenting with. Are they any good, thay just draw a small current, but keep the home brew stuff at temp. Could these covers help.

Don't shoot me down, just a thought.

[jimbo]

The sort of temperatures we have been having of late would not freeze a Propane bottle. The trouble with the regulators is that they are sensative to freezing, as a lot of moisture can collect in them by the nature of the way they work, thus causing damage. A far better idea would be to insulate the regulator rather than the bottle to be honest.

[smitch6]

i have wrapped thermowrap around the reg already

[Antares_9]

but the bottle is lagged well

is that lagging holding the cold air in then?

i thought it would help keep it warm

so annoying

Lagging the bottle will prevent the ambient air temperature equalising the temperature and helping the liquid to become a gas. As the pressure in the bottle is reduced by taking off some gas for an appliance then some of the liquid turns to gas and in doing so takes heat from the surrounding air via the walls of the bottle. This is why one often sees frost on the outside of a bottle especially in high draw situations even when it’s well above freezing outside, the supporting physics for this is known as ideal gas law. Any insulation will hamper this process as of course insulating will keep cold as well as heat in. Even at lower temperatures the outside air is at a higher temperature than the cylinder walls above the liquefied gas. Bottom line is you need to provide heat for the liquid to become gas and you are hampering this by insulating the bottle, unless the insulated jacked has its own heat source that is.

You don’t need to worry too much about the bottle freezing inside as propane has a freezing point of -190c and a boiling point (the point when it turns from liquid to gas) of -44c obviously like all liquids and gases these numers change when under pressure but it illustrates the low temperatures involved.

[Antares_9]

Something else that I am reliably informed is often successful in stopping regulator freeze up is the fitting of a two stage regulator.

[smitch6]

thanks for that

yes its defo the reg thats freezing not the bottle thats causing the problems

we just got back and no gas

i heated up the reg and hey presto it all works

the reg is a very old one age unknown tho

we have decided to get an auto change over one and insulate the new reg really well

hopefully this will work

[zacthedog]

It may have been said before but propane liquid turns to gas at -47 degrees so its not that as the liquid turns to gas it pulls heat from outside but if you have a too higher usage it can't keep up, you will need 2 bottles and a y adaptor wich allows the bottle with the greatest pressure to supply the gas the outside temp is not relevant for propane as with butane

[C.Ricko]

either that or nip out for a pee while cooking

[Brian]

if you insulate the gas valve, it may freeze up quicker ?

[Antares_9]

if you insulate the gas valve, it may freeze up quicker ?

That's exactly waht I've been trying to get across throughout this thread, thanks Brian.