Rascal's Learning to Drive

[Polly]

In some cases, never!! Lol it's a fair warning to other users, I am thinking of a dear late friend whose driving was just terrible. I banned my children from ever going in her car.

[JanetAnne]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

So, after passing a driving test, how many hours of driving should one do before taking off the "P" plate?

It depends on how long you want to take the P for

[LondonRascal]

The DVSA say on average it takes 45 hours for someone to meet the standard to put in for their driving test. I have had 30 Hours of actual driving experience this year, and 9 hours last year.

The problem, as I see it is not the number of hours it has taken someone to get to a 'standard' and I am sorry if this sounds a bit cocky, but experience counts for very little if, from the beginning you begin and continue to do things wrong. You then gain a lot of experience at doing things how you are not meant to. The other thing is everyone (okay most people) will believe they are a good driver. This causes people to take it for granted.

I think personally a good driver is someone who does a lot of driving over a number of years over a lot of different road circumstances. Leaving a residential area, through a city, on a duel carriageway then a motorway followed but some town driving to their place of work. Do this 5 days a week but every few days mix in different routes so it never gets the 'same old'. That is how my Dad would do things commuting from North London to Kent. Although it was the same two destinations, there were five routes he would drive and change them up because he felt it would keep him more alert and not get into a Robot mode of the same route day after day.

If everyone was really good driver though, there would never be any issues on the road with others moaning about how people are not looking, pulling out, cutting them up, going too fast, going too slow - you name it. What I think time and experience provides you is to appreciate what your driving causes others to do around you and to anticipate what others are going to do. It might be about the style of car they are driving, their gender or age even down to the time of day or day of the week - experience will be your second pair of eyes and your instinct. You cannot be taught that it just develops over time.

If I pass on Wednesday, and after Lads Week the first drive I will undertake properly is to Inverness. This is because when I began my first foray into driving lessons I told myself when I pass I will do this and stay at a certain hotel and it will be my moment of pride to make it to a place I have never been to before that is a great distance from home.

I am not sure how long I may keep P plates on, I think it will depend on how comfortable I feel rather than a set amount of time.  What I have learnt from talking to my Instructor is a lot of younger people feel they are ready far sooner than they really are - they gain the basics of car control and think it is all sorted and want to put in for their test and get it out the way. Also people doing intensive courses are not able to keep up with the many hours on the road with breaks being few and far between but by doing this you are getting good experience day after day, and having to deal with other road users and their ways a lot more than a couple of hours each week over time especially if your lessons are at the same sort of time, like the afternoon you will never experience busy rush hour conditions until you have passed your test, I am also very pleased to be having some night time driving experience tomorrow and feel that should be part of learning and not just good fortune I will be doing it.

[Siddy]

1 hour ago, LondonRascal said:

If everyone was really good driver though, there would never be any issues on the road with others moaning about how people are not looking, pulling out, cutting them up, going too fast, going too slow - you name it.

Come Thursday it will be day one of putting what you've learn't into play, You've started listing what you're looking out for, read the traffic around you that's thinking like a few cars in front of you if brake lights come on ease up let them sort themselves out. Keep a eye on your wing mirror to what's coming up behind you on dual/motorways etc.

That safe braking distant you've given yourself is someone elses overtaking spot.

Plan your breaks on route, I'm not a fan of cruise control to me your driving a guided bullet if you drop off and these days doing 70 is boring and inverness is a long way even from here. Even 110 mile to Newcastle in the morning is longer than it took 20 years ago (speed cameras). Saying that I hear cruise is good in 50mph roadworks to stop speeding.

Good luck and it won't be long before your taking the car to the local shop and forget what your legs are for.

 

[MauriceMynah]

I'm sorry Robin but in my opinion there was so much wrong  with your last post I hardly know where to start. You cannot fully realise the difference between the driving standard needed to pass your test, and the skills developed over years of driving experience. I won't even start to go into them here, it is neither the time nor the place.

For the time being, concentrate on passing your test. Nothing else matters until you get that little bit of plastic. Once you have achieved that, don't bother with tour mammoth trip you have planned just yet. It'll be a waste of fuel, your time and will do nothing to improve your driving. Better to use those hours and miles driving round the areas you know. Round where you live and where you will be doing most of your driving.

At one point in your last post you say

11 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

I am sorry if this sounds a bit cocky, but experience counts for very little if, from the beginning you begin and continue to do things wrong.

"Cocky"  doesn't even come close. "doing things wrong"? Wrong In who's opinion? Either way to say "experience counts for very little" is completely wrong with or without any rider.

Like many here, I have been driving for many years. I have driven professionally as well as privately and trust me, experience counts for so much.

Lastly, and I'm afraid I can't think of any other way to put this other than 'bluntly', It's a bit rich for an experienced driver reading what makes a good driver from one who is yet to pass his test.

I wish you the very best of luck on Wednesday though "luck" shouldn't play a part. :-) 

 

[Hylander]

Robin ,Remember it is not always your fault (your meaning all of us) it usually the other dozy buggers on the road.   They are hampered by texting, talking on the phone, eating their breakfast, putting on make up etc or just plain dealing with kiddies who are misbehaving on the back seat.   As soon as your attention is gone for a mini second from the road in front of you , then accidents happen.

Coming home from Lowestoft on Saturday ,  I noticed in my rear view mirror blue lights and a flash of yellow so thought ambulance.  I kept an eye and when it was relatively near to I slowed down (much to the annoyance of the driver behind me) and stopped.   The other road users on the other side of the road also stopped.    Well everyone except the 'tart' in the car behind me who just as the ambulance was passing him decided to indicated right and pull out.    The ambulance shoved on his two tones and obviously frightened the life out of this driver who immediately pulled back in.   What did he think we were all stopped for 'a chat'.  My be Father Christmas should bring him a rear view mirror and teach him how to use it.

 

 

 

[alexandlorna]

Robin this post just reminds me why I dont bother with the forum anymore ........

Lets get back to boats and the broads ...

 

 

[Meantime]

14 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

The problem, as I see it is not the number of hours it has taken someone to get to a 'standard' and I am sorry if this sounds a bit cocky, but experience counts for very little if, from the beginning you begin and continue to do things wrong.

And that if I may say so, is the voice of inexperience talking! Most drivers will pick up bad habits over a period of time, however where experience really counts, and this is only truly gained with many hours / years, on the road, is learning to read what other drivers are likely to do, or not do. Experience will warn you that when the driver in front of you starts to suddenly accelerate and tailgate the car in front, it is because he has suddenly realised he has left it late to move over ready to take his exit of the road. He is now almost trying to push the car in front to go faster so that he can make the small gap in the nearside lane and still make his exit. If he fails to judge it correctly he is going to cause an accident. If he cannot make the gap he is suddenly going to brake hard in the outside lane to fall in behind the cars on the nearside lane and still make his exit. Experience in those situations teaches you to ease of the accelerator and leave more than the recommended braking distance until the situation ahead has worked itself out.

Experience will teach you to recognise a bad junction layout that is likely to lead to drivers doing the unexpected as they find themselves in the wrong place etc. etc.

Experience is not just about the way you drive, good or bad, but about a wealth of knowledge you build up over time of other drivers habits, common accident black spots, unusual junction layouts etc.

I passed my test first time after 6 x 1hr lessons and 1 x 2hr lesson. 35 years later I am still learning and gaining experience. Like most people I guess, I consider myself a good driver, hopefully a clean license confirms this.

As Maurice said, luck shouldn't come into it, so I'll just say I hope you pass on Wednesday and continue with the learning process.

[socrates]

29 minutes ago, alexandlorna said:

Robin this post just reminds me why I dont bother with the forum anymore ........

Lets get back to boats and the broads ...

 

 

Totally agree, why I don't bother either. It is getting rather too much like  The League of Gentlemen television series at times.

[Regulo]

Err, this is in . . . .

The Broadscot Lounge

Follow 3

Non Boat/Broads related Topics and Discussions

So what's the problem with it?

[Polly]

Agree with Regulo there, if people want to talk on general topics, here is the area to do so. Maybe a happier way to make a point is to post on the boating threads and enhance that area.

[rightsaidfred]

17 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

The DVSA say on average it takes 45 hours for someone to meet the standard to put in for their driving test. I have had 30 Hours of actual driving experience this year, and 9 hours last year.

The problem, as I see it is not the number of hours it has taken someone to get to a 'standard' and I am sorry if this sounds a bit cocky, but experience counts for very little if, from the beginning you begin and continue to do things wrong. You then gain a lot of experience at doing things how you are not meant to. The other thing is everyone (okay most people) will believe they are a good driver. This causes people to take it for granted.

I think personally a good driver is someone who does a lot of driving over a number of years over a lot of different road circumstances. Leaving a residential area, through a city, on a duel carriageway then a motorway followed but some town driving to their place of work. Do this 5 days a week but every few days mix in different routes so it never gets the 'same old'. That is how my Dad would do things commuting from North London to Kent. Although it was the same two destinations, there were five routes he would drive and change them up because he felt it would keep him more alert and not get into a Robot mode of the same route day after day.

If everyone was really good driver though, there would never be any issues on the road with others moaning about how people are not looking, pulling out, cutting them up, going too fast, going too slow - you name it. What I think time and experience provides you is to appreciate what your driving causes others to do around you and to anticipate what others are going to do. It might be about the style of car they are driving, their gender or age even down to the time of day or day of the week - experience will be your second pair of eyes and your instinct. You cannot be taught that it just develops over time.

If I pass on Wednesday, and after Lads Week the first drive I will undertake properly is to Inverness. This is because when I began my first foray into driving lessons I told myself when I pass I will do this and stay at a certain hotel and it will be my moment of pride to make it to a place I have never been to before that is a great distance from home.

I am not sure how long I may keep P plates on, I think it will depend on how comfortable I feel rather than a set amount of time.  What I have learnt from talking to my Instructor is a lot of younger people feel they are ready far sooner than they really are - they gain the basics of car control and think it is all sorted and want to put in for their test and get it out the way. Also people doing intensive courses are not able to keep up with the many hours on the road with breaks being few and far between but by doing this you are getting good experience day after day, and having to deal with other road users and their ways a lot more than a couple of hours each week over time especially if your lessons are at the same sort of time, like the afternoon you will never experience busy rush hour conditions until you have passed your test, I am also very pleased to be having some night time driving experience tomorrow and feel that should be part of learning and not just good fortune I will be doing it.

You can teach the mechanics of driving, you can teach someone how to pass a test, you cannot teach someone to drive, humility and aptitude are fundamentals that go a long way towards becoming a driver allied with experience, the accident statistics for new drivers is frightening and says a lot.

Fred

[FairTmiddlin]

I for one cannot for the life of me see why you have to conform to a set rule on your test, of leaving a prescribed gap between you and the car you are following ( No I'm not condoning tailgating ). But it is you in control of that vehicle and you may see something the examiner may not (possibly someone on a phone in the car in front which is hidden by the headrest from the viewpoint of the examiner). I certainly would not be following too close to that. Would I be failed for something he didn't see?

[finny]

In the HGV world many blue chip organisations will have a continuous rolling driver training program in place and its amazing how easy it is to slip into lazy habits that come to light whilst participating such courses and many of these drivers are accident free with thousands upon thousands of miles under the belt - for me there seems to be very little tolerance on todays roads and with the best planning in place a long journey can be a bit like rolling a dice 

 

finny  

[Meantime]

A friend of mine works for General Electric as a field engineer servicing MRI scanners. He is nearing retirement age, but due to company policy has to undertake driver training every two years, as do all their employees who drive as part of their job.

[grendel]

2 hours ago, FairTmiddlin said:

I for one cannot for the life of me see why you have to conform to a set rule on your test, of leaving a prescribed gap between you and the car you are following ( No I'm not condoning tailgating ). But it is you in control of that vehicle and you may see something the examiner may not (possibly someone on a phone in the car in front which is hidden by the headrest from the viewpoint of the examiner). I certainly would not be following too close to that. Would I be failed for something he didn't see?

in such an instance I would forestall the examiner by commenting that I could see the driver ahead was using a mobile phone, so I will be giving him extra space, in fact a running commentary of what you are seeing is part of police driver training.

[FairTmiddlin]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

 a running commentary of what you are seeing is part of police driver training.

It's also part of the Institute of Advanced Motorists  test, but not too sure of modern tests, as took mine 44 years ago. But I'm still learning now.

[Polly]

Well??? Don't keep us in suspense!

[LondonRascal]

So lets keep this to the point, I failed.

Right now that is out the way of course being me it could not just be a simple error I could go away and kick myself about, no it had to be a bit of an oddball affair. I've posted a video below to explain more but suffice to say I ended up getting the 'grumpy' Examiner of the bunch so said my Instructor. She pointed him out as we went into the Test Centre and as he disappeared I thought I was not going to get him, and then he popped back out and called my name.

The people waiting we generally older men doing Motorcycle tests or teenagers (two visible shaking) waiting for their car tests. I guess there must have been about 8 of us in the waiting room. As people were called forward they were asked to show their Driving Licence and after a brief check were introduced in a friendly manner to the Examiner who would then ask 'is it ok if I call you Julie', for example.  When it came to my turn the first issue was the fact he kept on looking over my Licence, and then asked 'this is a London address?' and I had to explain yes it was and yes it was my usual address etc. I had to sign the test sheet and as we walked out to the car there was no friendly greetings, it was surname only. Eyes tested it was a quick tell me question about the car and I got in.

Shortly after he too got in and put his Tom Tom Sat-Nav on the dashboard and begun to talk about why I was up here, had I moved what made me want to come to Norfolk etc. Well, this was strange as I had been told Examiners rarely talk other than to give instruction. He then asked me to leave the car park when safe, and we did.

Two roundabouts down we approached a major junction - three lanes, we needed to turn right and you can use the right or centre lane to achieve this. I could see the lights turn green in the distance but the closer we got the more 'edgy' I felt at the length of time they had been green and was slowing - 17MPH was on the screen. I checked my rear view mirror and nothing was behind us, glanced forward to see the lights change to amber. I instinctively hit the brake.

During my tuition I have been told and told again never go through an amber light and especially on test day as it will be a fail right away. I even had (at the same junction on my Mock) the same thing happen and I stopped. The senior instructor praised me then, but reminded me if that was on test to always check the rear view mirror just in case there was a car close behind.  Today there was no car behind us, or in front of us so as I hit the brakes the Examiner calls 'GO GO GO' - this 'brain froze' me doing something that had been drilled into me and at the same time being told to carry on through the amber light.

We stopped. I had eased off the brake a tad as he called me to 'GO GO GO' and now we were a tyre over the stop line. His let out a small chuckle and I knew it was all over.

But as I drove on I wondered, well I may have been slightly wrong but so too was he so maybe I would get away with this being six of one and half a dozen of the other. He then got really chatty and nosey and I would have to pause in my replies to check signs, pull out and so on - to be honest it was distracting me and if this was not bad enough 2he switched to asking me to do maneuvers not one at a time like "I would like you to turn right at the end of the road" but instead "I would like you to turn right ahead, then right again and into the next road left" - three instructions in one. As I completed this rather too close I felt to a junction he asked me to pull over and here we would do the Parallel Parking. This meant I had to be super aware of my blind spot in case a car swept around the junction or for that matter a pedestrian - if you are doing this maneuver and anything or anyone comes along you must stop immediately. 

Despite the pressure and being asked to use the rear wash wipe as one of the show me questions (the most cheeky I feel as on the car I was in requires you to push the stalk away from you, hold in for a few seconds while water appears on the rear screen and then cancel the wipers unlike the front window washers) I did okay with only two minors. One was as I came out on a new road I did not do a mirror sweep until I was a good few feet down the road and the other was approaching too quickly to a mini-roundabout let turn.

So we arrive back at the Test Centre and he asks if I would like my Instructor to hear the debrief, and I agree.  He then said I had failed and asked me if I wanted to know why, to which of course I said yes. He explained that at the first set of traffic lights it was safe to proceed through the amber light and he had asked me to, but I had stopped.  I explained that I did that because there was nothing behind us and it was what I had been taught, his reply was if there had been a vehicle behind us they would have had nowhere to go but into the back of us therefore it was unsafe and a serious fault so a fail.

My Instructor could not believe it - and she was the one more fuming than me. She explained in the years she has been teaching pupils many had failed going through an amber and was so pleased she heard it come out of his mouth 'it was safe to proceed'. She said as a driver so many do indeed use the amber light as a 'warning' and carry on through knowing nothing bad will happen but it is not how you should be taught and certainly not what an Examiner should instruct.  She also questioned why he spoke at all - if I was going to mess up let me and mark me down, and was even more surprised when I said how much he was talking to me through the test.

But despite this, it was what it was. It also was my error at the end of the day - I should have been more prepared, and more ready to have braked and gone slower on approach than I actually had been and that was frankly down to the nerves of literally having left the Test Centre about 5 minutes previous. I am upset that it came down to this but it also has given me a good insight into the experience and frankly, like with school when you learn things but only 50% pop up int he exam you actually needed to know, so I can see how much of the things I have been taught and gone over even if you do them wrong may result in a minor but traffic lights I will never look at in the same way again. At least in time I can say 'and this junction was where I failed my test at'.

I am going away for a week with the Lads boating, and then will put in for another test - perhaps first week in November. I want to use the same car and my Instructor so I will fit in with when she and the car are free.

 

[JamesLV]

Don’t worry about it Robin, on my first test at a red light the examiner asked me what I did for a living, where I was from etc., then pointed out the green light wasn’t going to get any greener...

i was not happy as I thought I’d been distracted but that is driving, next test I ignored all the unnecessary questions and just got on with it. Passed, no minors.

[Polly]

Oh well better luck next time.

[grendel]

it does sound like the examiner thought you had just arranged to have your test in norfolk to get an easier test than london, and was doing everything in his power to fail you, including excessive distraction. never mind better luck next time

[SwanR]

This does sound quite similar to my test back in the 80s in Loughton. I remember the examiner chatting away to me, which I thought they weren't supposed to do. Then I went across a junction and he asked if I thought I had gone too fast and I made some reply about being ready to slow down if I needed to but the other roads were clear. I thought I must have failed and didn't feel I had driven that well through the rest of the test. Perhaps in fact I relaxed and just drove "normally". Either way I passed but with the suggestion to consider a few more lessons perhaps or at least some more time out with my instructor.

Odd ... very odd. It was almost Christmas, perhaps he was feeling charitable or perhaps he thought I could have made a complaint about all his chatter.

Hopefully the next one will go better Robin. Thanks for sharing your experience with us ... and enjoy Lads Week!

[LondonRascal]

If that happens again I will feel more empowered, after all I am paying for the test.  I will be polite but ask if we could not talk so I can concentrate more.  As for being in London but learning here, there are many courses around the country that are taken where people stay in a local hotel and do the driving and then the test - where you live should not have any bearing on the location of the test but of course people have their own prejudices.

I am more motivated now, know the system and since posting on my personal Facebook page people have commented with tales of their own issues with the Norwich test centre Examiners. I've also had message from a London based Examiner saying what happened today was wrong - he should not have instructed me as he did.  If I was too close to the lights to stop safely, and a vehicle was behind then I could have carried on as the lights changed - safer option. The fact there was nobody behind us and I had checked this and braked sharply should also be okay since it caused no risk to any other road user.  Starting to brake hard then told 'go go go' was just about as wrong as it could be.  Also chatting is optional, asking nosey questions and then throwing in a series of turns and straight after a parallel park seems to show he was simply being at best harsh and at worse piling on pressure for his own reasons.

[KatieR]

Oh no, you must be really disappointed. However, my advice for what it’s worth would be not to dissect the reasons for him not giving the pass any further, but actually park that right now. ( pun may have been intended!!) 

Rather, focus on the areas of the test that you did well and where no issues were evidenced - they will be far more numerous I’m sure. You were clearly well prepared for this test, you feel reasonably confident in your ability and have the considered opinion of your instructor who has far more experience of your driving than anyone else and who is clearly surprised it wasn’t a clear tick this time.

Don’t forget you are in good company- a good proportion of people don’t get the pass first time- it really just gives you even more experience to take forward into your next test! 

Enjoy lads week, and then get the papers in for round 2