Broads Authority Posts

[JennyMorgan]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/boat_owners_moored_for_more_than_24_hours_in_thorpe_st_andrew_could_be_fined_100_under_new_plans_1_4947888

[Baitrunner]

At least they have the round things to do it!!

question. If you have 2 boats rafted up. Can they swap over and stay 48hrs? Only 1 is actually using the quay heading at any point in time? 

[Viking23]

Let's say you have stayed 23 hours and 59 minutes according to your stop watch from the moment a crew member's foot touched the land.

You cast off... head for the bridge... oops tide is higher than we thought, can't return to the 24 hour mooring for at least 48 hours... could try to get through... might get stuck... then close the railwayline down to inspect for damage... or wait midstream waiting for the tide to drop, but if it's rising you could be there 6-12 hours. 

You could use your time to cruise between the two bridges during those 6-12 hours, the cctv will have some nice video to put London Rascal to shame lol But I think the commentary will be a bit sameish lol.

So I guess Thorpe Council have thought about this and provide a concession, or layby moorings, that with good timing, could be greatly abused.

Time and tide will tell. 

I think to have a fine for overstaying due to a tidal issue, captive audience with nowhere else to go, will not stand up in court, and the fine will be thrown out, but then who knows.

Probably best to avoid Thorpe all together then...  not what they had in mind.

If I was stuck there, moor 3' off a bank with a mud weight fore and aft. Could that work?

Richard

[MauriceMynah]

I understand that as long as no one leaves the boat, you may stay to wait for the tide. I'm sure someone will correct me if I have that wrong..

[Islander]

Where did you read that MM?

looks like I will have to use three boats as I need to cross the river at least once a day.

Colin

[MauriceMynah]

I believe I read it on this forum when the price of tying up at Gt. Yarmouth was under discussion. No charge if you are waiting for the tide and you don't leave your boat.. If I recall correctly, it went further saying that they were obliged to let you wait for the tide.

[Islander]

MM, yes I'm sure you are right but will hire craft know that. If I was a hire boat operator I would be putting a warning about using river green and the risk of fines. 

Please note, The Rush Cutters are replacing the quay heading and it looks very nice but there are no mooring posts or rings!!! 

Colin

[Islander]

Food for thought. Freedom hire boat spends Thursday night at RiverGreen, has pic taken and time noted following morning before leaving and returning boat to Andy and his team for cleaning. New hirers arrive late pm and collect boat for their holiday and decide to moor at River Green as getting dark and all other mooring are full. Next morning has pic taken and time noted. Boat now returned before 48hr restriction has expired. Fine now possible.

I could go on re visiting boats, day boats, canoes etc but I have work to do which will now mean me crossing the river in my dinghy.

Colin

 

back later to read more

[Vaughan]

Answer to one question : It is forbidden to anchor (or mud weight) in the navigation.

Next answer : There used to be a law that you could moor for the turn of one tide on a tidal river, but you must be a sailing vessel with no engine (e.g. a wherry) and I don't think it was meant to relate to the height under bridges.

This a very good question from Viking and I trust the council will be considering this aspect as it applies uniquely, to Thorpe reach between the bridges.

Of course you could always go and wait in Jenners basin. Plenty of room and an eviction order would take months!

[JennyMorgan]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Answer to one question : It is forbidden to anchor (or mud weight) in the navigation.

Next answer : There used to be a law that you could moor for the turn of one tide on a tidal river, but you must be a sailing vessel with no engine (e.g. a wherry) and I don't think it was meant to relate to the height under bridges.

This a very good question from Viking and I trust the council will be considering this aspect as it applies uniquely, to Thorpe reach between the bridges.

Of course you could always go and wait in Jenners basin. Plenty of room and an eviction order would take months!

As one who has taken advantage of the right to moor for the duration of a tide, both in sailing and pop-pop-boats, at Great Yarmouth Yacht Station and had that right explained to me by an obliging Quay Ranger, I have to assume that there is at least a common law right to moor and that it is upheld by non other than the Authority who will, I'm sure, have researched the matter in absolute and miniscule detail. Indeed it's hats off to the staff at the Yacht Station at least from me.

I doubt very much that even Thorpe PC would ignore the harsh reality of an unduly high tide.

[Vaughan]

Just now, JennyMorgan said:

I doubt very much that even Thorpe PC would ignore the harsh reality of an unduly high tide.

Let us indeed hope so.

I think GYYS probably made their own decision in their case and quite rightly. The law that I mean is a very old one and applies to anywhere on the Broads that is shown as tidal on the O.S. Map. So this would not work in Wroxham, for instance, but it would in Horning. When a wherry was making a night passage and the wind dropped , as it does, then when the tide turned the wherry would have to moor up wherever possible, or start going backwards. As soon as the tide turned again in her favour, she would set off again.

As far as I know, this law could still be enforced but I can't see how it could be applied to height under bridges. It is indeed something that the council must consider.

[Islander]

For those of you who like to know these things. The main report starts at p.18 but all of it is worth a read. 

http://www.thorpestandrew-tc.gov.uk/documents/6March17TCpapers.pdf

The third option was voted through also giving additional powers to the town clark to make amendments. Didn't that happen somewhere else recently having a disastrous effect on large passenger boats 

Back to work now.

Colin

[vanessan]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

Food for thought. Freedom hire boat spends Thursday night at RiverGreen, has pic taken and time noted following morning before leaving and returning boat to Andy and his team for cleaning. New hirers arrive late pm and collect boat for their holiday and decide to moor at River Green as getting dark and all other mooring are full. Next morning has pic taken and time noted. Boat now returned before 48hr restriction has expired. Fine now possible.

I could go on re visiting boats, day boats, canoes etc but I have work to do which will now mean me crossing the river in my dinghy.

Colin

 

back later to read more

I believe something similar happened at Ranworth a couple of years ago. There is/was a chap who keeps his eye on the moorings there and makes sure nobody stays more than the 24 hours. A hire boat was moored on the Friday night and turned up again on the Saturday having changed crews that morning. In no uncertain terms he told them they could not moor despite being assured it was a different crew. The boat had been there the night before and that was that! I believe eventually the BA got involved and sorted it all out but not before a lot of heated argument and a bad start to the poor hirers holiday. 

[ranworthbreeze]

4 hours ago, vanessan said:

I believe something similar happened at Ranworth a couple of years ago. There is/was a chap who keeps his eye on the moorings there and makes sure nobody stays more than the 24 hours. A hire boat was moored on the Friday night and turned up again on the Saturday having changed crews that morning. In no uncertain terms he told them they could not moor despite being assured it was a different crew. The boat had been there the night before and that was that! I believe eventually the BA got involved and sorted it all out but not before a lot of heated argument and a bad start to the poor hirers holiday. 

That's all we need on the Broads, petty bureaucrat's or misguided individuals taking regulations into their own hands. These rulings in my mind on 24 hour moorings were not put in place to stop hirers or owners of boats paying their way; but more to stop residential type mooring on these moorings.

There is a need for more locations that provide long time moorings or residential moorings but away from the 24 hour moorings.

Canals have had long term moorings for a long time now, my biggest bugbear however is they can be on the towpath side of the canal which is wrong.

Regards

Alan

 

[vanessan]

Reading the Thorpe Town Council meeting minutes, it would appear that short stay mooring will be limited to 10 hours with no overnight mooring. That's not going to do much for the local pubs/businesses methinks! Of course, it may be that that the council intends to dissuade most hire boaters and are just seeking to attract day-boaters, canoeists etc. I think having to pay for mooring is probably going to put most people off though.

[Wussername]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Let us indeed hope so.

I think GYYS probably made their own decision in their case and quite rightly. The law that I mean is a very old one and applies to anywhere on the Broads that is shown as tidal on the O.S. Map. So this would not work in Wroxham, for instance, but it would in Horning. When a wherry was making a night passage and the wind dropped , as it does, then when the tide turned the wherry would have to moor up wherever possible, or start going backwards. As soon as the tide turned again in her favour, she would set off again.

As far as I know, this law could still be enforced but I can't see how it could be applied to height under bridges. It is indeed something that the council must consider.

I can remember, many years ago talking to my grandfather, a trawler skipper and boat yard owner. He  stated that on tidal waters throughout the UK there existed an ancient charter which allowed a skipper of a vessel (motor vessels were not in use in those days and the charter was not changed, so includes motor vessels)   to moor where he liked for one full turn of the tide. Irrespective of the land being private property or not. 

Th term moor needs to be qualified. In actual fact it meant that a single anchor or line could be attached to the bank, nothing more , nothing less. The charter also stated that the skipper or indeed the crew of the vessel were not allowed to enter any further that two feet into the property. 

Such a charter would seem to make sense when one considers that our water ways were primarily used for trade, by vessels under sail. Subject to the vagaries of wind and tide. 

Ponder if you will. If a landowner decides to ignore the charter and casts you adrift, is he not guilty of a more heinous crime, that of interfering with the anchor lines of a vessel. Punishable by the law of the land. 

So, me old shipmates. Up your pipe I say. Anchor where you wish. 

Let me know how you get on ! 

Old Wussername 

[Islander]

Day boats or should that be hourly hire. Hire it for the morning, someone else in the afternoon, next day another customer.???  

I think the 10 rule and over night has been dropped. I'm going by the proposed signage at the end of the document. This requires confirmation, but if the 10hr rule is enforced I wonder what the tide will do in that time.  

Been a lovely day here today. Seen one day boat and one speed boat pass through today, neither stopped at the green. Lots of people on the green sunning them selves and feeding the ducks. I'm sure the council won't be charging them for the use of the green.  

The BA returned this mooring to the town council because they considered  it under used and not cost effective. The council now need to make it pay or let the quay fall into disrepair. I'm quite happy to pay to moor my dinghy, for a reasonable fee, as and when I need to but ladder access is essential for my wife (and me) and any visitors we may have.  

IMHO the council have shot them selves in the foot in not making some agreement with the BA ( full repair lease for free) but will now try to bleed dry the few people that enjoy using the mooring here in Thorpe.

Colin

ps Old Wussernane, just read your post. So if I mud weight of the quay it will be up to the city council to tell me to move as they have control of the river bed.

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

 

ps Old Wussernane, just read your post. So if I mud weight of the quay it will be up to the city council to tell me to move as they have control of the river bed.

Put your mud weight on the quay.

Andrew

[vanessan]

"I think the 10 rule and over night has been dropped. I'm going by the proposed signage at the end of the document. This requires confirmation, but if the 10hr rule is enforced I wonder what the tide will do in that time."

Yes, it does look as if the recommendations are for 24 hour mooring with no return within 48 hours. I wonder why 48???

The proposed documentation seems to indicate that the town council will rely on the BA to provide them with details of boat owners so they can write to them demanding payment of the fine. I suppose they will also rely on hire boatyards providing details of their clients as well. Doesn't this bring up the issue of data protection? Or will it work like the DVLA where parking infringements occur - anyone know? 

[Islander]

I don't see the adoption of a 48hr return will gain anything for the council or local business. I do wonder just how much time these councillors actually spend on the green. I think they should talk more with their staff that do the real work, cutting the grass, maintaining the area and clearing the rubbish etc not those that sit in offices making plans for areas they rarely visit.

Colin

thats it for today, back tomorrow if I have time.

very nice red, chateau laborie de guinette 2015, is calling me so nothing sensible from now on.

[Wussername]

Ah! The Château Laborie de Guinette 2015. I would love to join you this spring evening. However I fear the wine is a little young. Perhaps next year on the green. If i am allowed to moor overnight. 

Er! Is this a common occurrence throughout Broadland? Or unique to Thorpe St Andrew ?

Andrew

[Islander]

Next year!!! Once the bottle gets aboard its lucky if it lasts the week.

Common occurrence on this boat anyway. To be honest anything over about £5 a bottle would be a waste and over£15 just pretentious.

Anyway, lovely morning here today. Good day for a bit of gardening and boat cleaning. 

Ah, church bell ringing, call for prayers and usual parking mayhem. Just how many shunts does it take to park a fiesta in a space big enough for a Rolls Royce?

Have a good day everyone, get on the river if you can.

Colin

[JennyMorgan]

The 48 hour rule does seem to ignore holiday visitors who want to visit Norwich, spending the night before in Thorpe and the night after too. Not everyone wants to moor at Norwich Yacht Station overnight, especially after Jeremy Kyle panned it so Thorpe is an obvious stopping place.

However, I do have some sympathy with the Parish Council, as I do with residential boaters. Whilst the majority of the houseboat fraternity are not a problem there are those who seem incapable of making friends with the local 'in brick' community especially in regard to the parking of cars and vans. On top of that there are the mooring hoppers, those who swap from one 24 hour mooring to another. Thorpe one day, Bramerton or wherever the next and back to Thorpe the day after. In a nutshell I don't think that the live-aboard community has exactly helped or organised itself. It is a shame but it does appear that neither side of the debate is prepared to sit down with the other and reach an acceptable compromise.

[Vaughan]

Since Peter's post yesterday I have been trying to get my thoughts in order, as this is a multifaceted situation.

Thorpe River Green is historically one of the oldest and most important public staithes on the Broads. It is on the old main river which brought commerce to Norwich for a long time before even the railway was built (right back to the Romans, Timbo!) and it was an important quay for wherries loading sand, gravel and chalk from the quarries in the high ground behind the Yarmouth Rd.

I remember how busy it used to be in the 50s and 60s, especially on Friday and Saturday night, with all the boats coming home or departing from the 4 hire yards that were based on the reach between the bridges, but what about now? Last year Susie and I were in Thorpe, in the spring, for more than 3 months and my camper van could be seen parked in the Buck on most lunchtimes. During all that time I hardly ever saw a hire or private boat moored on the green. So why is this?

 

1/. Getting on for half of motor cruisers on the Broads nowadays can't get under the bridges anyway.

2/. Traffic noise.

3/. Nothing much to do when you get there. The tea shop and barbers opposite (which used to be a supermarket) has announced itself opposed to the mooring of boats on the Green - believe it or not. Meantime there is no general stores anywhere within walking distance.

4/. There are no facilities for pumpout, water, fuel, showers or bins as there are no boatyards any more.

5/. The Thorpe Gardens used to be one of the busiest riverside pubs on the Broads. Now it is the Rushcutters, a young Norwich businessman's eating factory whose manager once told me to my face that he regards boating people as the wrong kind of customer, and doesn't allow mooring on the quay. It is not a "pub" any more anyway.

6/. The River Garden (ex the Kings Head) and the Town House no longer encourage moorings on their quays for visitors.

7/. Ever since Patsy Dashwood left, the Buck has gone through disastrous times and was certainly not a place for an evening meal. The present managers seem to be succeeding in turning this around, thank goodness. One wonders what the mooring requirement would be, if the Buck were as popular a pub as Surlingham Ferry?

 

So as things stand, I don't think Thorpe Council are going to re-cup a great deal out of overnight moorings but I feel it is vital that this facility should remain available, on the PUBLIC STAITHE.

As to private moorings, these cannot be stern on, or they will block the navigation, so how many boats are they going to moor alongside, at the western end of the green? Probably about 8 boats, of average 30ft at £10 a foot - for locals. Is that plus or minus VAT? Whichever, it is not even going to pay for cutting the grass, let alone replacing the quay heading in 2030!

The only good idea to come out of this is the hiring of day boats. Why not? The only problem would be parking and I am told that public parking on the Yarmouth road is soon to be much better regulated and much more generally available.

 

A separate issue from all this (and I fully agree with Peter) is the access across the river from the green to the island for houseboat residents in their dinghies. The council minutes which have been published on this thread, state clearly that approaches have been made more than once to the owner of the land and his residents to discuss this, but no reply has been forthcoming. Time to sort that one out for themselves, maybe?

 

 

 

 

[Islander]

Hi Vaughan, much as I agree with both you and Peter the council have made no attempt at contacting the individual boat owners as I think it is the land/business owner they need to talk to. Mind you they are quick enough to want our vote at election time. I would be happy to talk to the town council but only as an individual as I would not be able to make decisions for Roger or the other boaters. I read elsewhere that 3 recorded delivery letters have been sent. As I'm sure you know I generally collect the post and I have not seen any Red Cards for signed for letters for Roger. If they are sent to Cayenne Marine reg office they are probably still in the post box in Gt Yarmouth. The council need to leave the office and call on Roger because he won't go to them. I see this becoming very frustrating for those of us that rent moorings here when your landlord buries his head in the sand.

Ruth and I have been here over 12 years now and love it. We have had a good relationship with most of the locals and wish to keep it that way.

 

Colin