Broads Authority Posts

[Stationerystill]

Boundary madness. When I first came to Thorpe my M.P. was from Gt. Yarmouth! Please can you tell me when you stopped being in South Norfolk? It is very odd not to be in the same district as the parish is in.

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, Stationerystill said:

The island was divided into strips after this, owned by the properties opposite. 

Is there any record as to how the owners of both the properties opposite and the strips of land would access their property on the Island? At what point in history was the Green created as an open space? 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Stationerystill said:

Boundary madness. When I first came to Thorpe my M.P. was from Gt. Yarmouth! Please can you tell me when you stopped being in South Norfolk? It is very odd not to be in the same district as the parish is in.

Parish, borough, district and constituency boundaries often followed the original course of rivers, as Timbo will tell us. This was the case in Thorpe Reach which was, of course , the old main river before the railway was built.

This gives me cause for a moment of "light reminiscence".

Sometime in the 50's (can't remember exactly) there was a general election, and the Conservative candidate for North Norfolk was one J.P.Medlicott. (hope I got the initials right). My father was persuaded (possibly by some of his friends in the Buck) to erect a banner along the side of the gunboat to promote the local candidate. This consisted of a white canvas screen, about 40 feet long and declaring, in black letters, VOTE FOR MEDLICOTT!

The gunboat, as a high speed craft, had a high foredeck, from which the side decks sloped downwards and outwards as they went aft. On the landward side there was a handrail but on the Thorpe side there was not even a toe-rail. This was the winter; the river was almost frozen and the decks were icy. So there was old Ted Dean, from the staff at Hearts, on the aft deck holding one end of the banner while my father set about securing the front end. He lost his footing and slid, slowly but inevitably, down the deck until he got to about amidships and went over the side rather like a depth charge.

Good old Ted, who had had two ships torpedoed under him during the war, jumped into a dinghy and went to the rescue. My father was a senior Naval Officer - a man of dignity - and so when he rose to the surface, through the rime ice, he still had his pipe in his mouth.

Suffice to say that that was the end of Hearts Cruisers' contribution to the local election campaign!

 

 

[Stationerystill]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Is there any record as to how the owners of both the properties opposite and the strips of land would access their property on the Island? At what point in history was the Green created as an open space? 

I am not yet sure but am doing research. The only mention on the enclosure act is the right of a tenant of the lord of the manor to load coal. He was also the publican at the Buck. The tithe map shows it as the same owners as the chalk workings opposite, who was the lord of the manor. In 1900 the police complained to the Lord of the Manor because itinerant preachers were attracting large crowds disturbing nearby church services and blocking the road. They said it was his reponsibility as the owner.He took legal counsels advice about this  in 1901, as he did not want to be responsible for it. By 1919 it was of no use to as there was very little chalk workings so no wherrys to load. At this time he conveyed it to the then parish council for the war memorial. I suppose it was at this point it became an open space as it was now owned by a public body. Soon after bylaws were made to regulate it. I owned a strip once opposite the Horsewater and used to launch a cartop dinghy to access it.  I sold it to the owner of Point House.

[JennyMorgan]

Thank you, Malcolm, was there nothing relevant in the deeds for your strip of land then? 

I remember from my antics with Jamie Campbell when we navigated the Muck Fleet up to the Trinity Broads that any portage involved had to be via public footpaths. We had one bridge to pass but thankfully that was served by public footpaths so we remained legal. On that basis I wonder about access to the water and subsequently the Island over land that quite possibly was a tow path and also a public 'green', open space.

Vaughan, do you not have old deeds relating to Herts and the Island tucked away in the attic or whatever?

[JennyMorgan]

19 minutes ago, Stationerystill said:

I am not yet sure but am doing research. The only mention on the enclosure act is the right of a tenant of the lord of the manor to load coal. He was also the publican at the Buck. The tithe map shows it as the same owners as the chalk workings opposite, who was the lord of the manor. In 1900 the police complained to the Lord of the Manor because itinerant preachers were attracting large crowds didturbing nearby church services and blocking the road. They said it was his reponsibility as the owner.He took legal counsels advice about this  in 1901, as he did not want to be responsible for it. By 1919 it was of no use to as there was very little chalk workings so no wherrys to load. At this time he conveyed it to the then parish council for the war memorial. I suppose it was at this point it became an open space as it was now owned by a public body. Soon after bylaws were made to regulate it. I owned a strip once opposite the Horsewater and used to launch a cartop dinghy to access it.  I sold it to the owner of Point House.

Perhaps if the boat owners and their dinghies were to carry token bags of coal then? Daft, I know, but sillier things have happened in the past, and succeeded.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Vaughan, do you not have old deeds relating to Herts and the Island tucked away in the attic or whatever?

My parents sold Hearts as a going business, so all of the paperwork went with it. I have a few documents left but nothing like that.

What I can say is that there was never any dispute or problem with the mooring of our dinghies or other workboats on the Green and I am sure there was never any talk of a fee being paid for this.

Hearts boatyard had a large flat rectangular ferry boat which was left on the staithe overnight when the staff went home from work. In Richardsons' days they had a ferry as well as an aft cockpit cruiser, which were left on the Green every night.

[JennyMorgan]

Thanks, Vaughan, in its entirety pretty much the answer that I expected. It begs the obvious question, if it was not a problem back then, why should it be so now? What motive does the Council have for damaging Roger's livelihood and impacting on the lives of the Islanders?

[JennyMorgan]

This is a must read in regard to Thorpe Island. It begs more questions than it answers whilst highlighting the further failings of the Authority.

http://www.thebroadsblog.co.uk/2017/04/the-sad-tale-of-jenners-thorpe-island.html

[JennyMorgan]

The above blog was written by a member of the Broads Authority's navigation committee:

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/broads-authority/who-we-are/members/meet-our-members/mr-james-knight

[ranworthbreeze]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

This is a must read in regard to Thorpe Island. It begs more questions than it answers whilst highlighting the further failings of the Authority.

http://www.thebroadsblog.co.uk/2017/04/the-sad-tale-of-jenners-thorpe-island.html

Hello Peter,

That made some interesting reading. It smacks of double standards and or corruption.

Regards

Alan

[JennyMorgan]

Nothing that I can prove, Alan, but I don't disagree with your suggestion.

[Stationerystill]

A blog written by the brother of the man who sold the island might be a little bit tilted in the direction of the developers who seek to change the use.

 

[JennyMorgan]

Malcolm, it might be seen that way, by some, just as your comment might also be seen, by some, as a slur on James's integrity.

Having been on the Nav Com I can only agree with James's conclusions in regard to the Authority.

Regarding change of use, that topic has been debated ad nauseum. Please don't let's reignite that one!

[Boatingman]

In the Broads Authority planning list the application for mooring craft in Jenner's Basin has been withdrawn.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume no permission to moor now exists

Ray

 

[Vaughan]

43 minutes ago, Stationerystill said:

A blog written by the brother of the man who sold the island might be a little bit tilted in the direction of the developers who seek to change the use.

That will do.

You are libelling the reputation of two planning professionals - F.R.I.C.S. - and what is more I do not understand your reference to developers, nor to a wish to "change the use".

I would have thought you could take a hint from the comments made by Maurice Mynah and since then I have been trying to keep this discussion on a convivial and "even" keel.

I am reporting your post.

 

[JawsOrca]

Can someone kind of explain what role these committees have within the BA.. It seems to me that they are ignored and a certainly couple of people in the BA just do whatever they like..

 

[JennyMorgan]

2 hours ago, JawsOrca said:

Can someone kind of explain what role these committees have within the BA.. It seems to me that they are ignored and a certainly couple of people in the BA just do whatever they like..

 

The reality is simple, let me explain. The man at the top determines policy, the officers develop that policy which is then presented to a well known man of the Broads who in turn calls in favours and summons his loyal poodles who then lobby the Broads Forum who, in true poodle fashion, fall head over heels in their cringing support for the proposed policy. The proposed policy then goes to the Navigation Committee who are then expected to support the Broads Forum and the Officer's report. With this overwhelming support the artful man at the top then gleefully goes to the ultimate poodle, the leader of the committee that is the Broads Authority. Skillful control, manouvering and manipulation along the line ensures cloying, devotional support throughout, mission accomplished. Do I jest? Well, that's for you to decide but remember that I have been there and. of course, there are James's comments. Am I exaggerating? Once again for you to decide but in my opinion I have outlined the general modus operandi. Little or nothing passes through the system without a prominent pattern of identical thumbprints. The general principle is that the Authority is lead by the executive rather than the executive being lead by the Authority. Don't lets forget that the selection of a number of committee members, like Authority staff, will exhibit those well known thumbprints. In theory the 'system' is sound, there to protect us, until it is manipulated then it becomes distrusted and devalued, as I firmly believe that it is. 

[grendel]

Peter - You missed out the bit about the minutes of all these meetings, not being available until after the next meeting.

[JennyMorgan]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

Peter - You missed out the bit about the minutes of all these meetings, not being available until after the next meeting.

Agreed but in hindsight it could come under manipulation, control and artful manourvering.

[JennyMorgan]

http://www.thebroadsblog.co.uk/2017/07/thorpe-island-episode-3.html

Whatever Jame's personal motivation is for revealing the truth I don't know but all power to his key-board.

[Vaughan]

I already knew this was coming, but was expecting it tomorrow!

The photo that James published in the blog was taken sometime before 1936 (as Wards yard is not yet there) and was taken from the quay in front of Jenner's boat sheds. The gantry on the quay is their petrol pump. The summer house is at the other end of the Town House lawn. This is clear photographic evidence that the land on the island side was in use for the mooring of boats at that time. Just behind the three boats moored there would be the present entrance to Jenner's basin.

 

This photo is looking eastwards and is a rare shot of the old Jenner's boat sheds. The photographer in the blog photo would have been standing in front of the smaller of the two sheds. The mother and daughter are standing on a quay just to the east of the Old Hall and the houseboat called "Nutcracker" was owned by the Broads artist and historian, Philippa Miller. Taken in the 1920s, this is more proof that the land on the island, which is now called Jenner's basin, was in use for the mooring of boats.

This "piques" me as well as James, as the sworn statements I made, that the basin was still in use for moorings during the 1970s and 80s, were presented to the first appeal and IGNORED.

I don't know the internal workings of the Broads Authority but I know that James is exactly right in what he says about the island.

I also dispute this manoeuvre about the City Council "owning" the river bottom. The navigation from Norwich to Gt Yarmouth came a long time after the Lowestoft Navigation, and therefore a long time after the railway was built. Any "claim" by the City Council would therefore be on the Back Reach and not on the old river through Thorpe.

Perhaps I should also "declare an interest" in this as James is my brother-in-law and I gather he has been accused of something similar with regard to his own brother. If the BA seriously believe that businesses on the Broads do deals without knowing, or being related to, each other, after hundreds of years, they must be joking!

[BuffaloBill]

This could be just the tip of the iceberg. Bit by bit he wants to stop boats from mooring anywhere and where better to start than Thorpe using the island and Jenners as a way towards it. If he gets his way here, where will the next bit come? We have already lost many moorings on the Broads over the last couple years without much objection from JP it seems.

[Vaughan]

It is suggested by the BA that mooring on both sides of the river would not be possible in Thorpe. Interesting to note that there were no private riverside moorings on the north side, when this photo was taken. On the contrary, I remember when the Jenner Group was operating, and this same view above would have shown you over 180 hire boats, moored stern on all the way round this bend to the other side of the present road bridge, on both sides of the bank. There was still plenty of room to pass up the river between them.

There was plenty of room at the other end as well, where stern on mooring was commonplace and tolerated, in 1948.

 

And again in 1955

 

Also in the 1970s, by Ladbrokes, and this continued until Richardsons sold both ends of the island, not much more than 10 years ago.

 

The Broads Authority's head office is at the corner of Harvey Lane in Thorpe, a few hundred yards away. Do they claim to know nothing of this documented history of use or, as James and I contend, are they choosing to ignore it for their own reasons?

[marshman]

Vaughan - not that its relevant but their offices are now opposite the Sorting office in Thorpe Road and to be honest why would they know of the history other than what others had told them - had they listened.

The BA is of course a fairly modern development relative to the age of some of the photos around