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Snowy

Speeding On The Broads

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Just an idea, increase the hire deposit, and if found speeding you lose that


And what 'hire deposit' would that be exactly. The absence of such is very much part of the problem !

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

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3 hours ago, Gracie said:

Please don' just point your fingers at hirers, most of us abide by the rules and keep within the speed limits. I have seen some of the worst speeding on the Southern rivers by ruddy great boats that would be better off at sea and the attitude of the helms better off at sea too

Grace

I didn't say everybody did it, read my posts again 

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3 hours ago, SwanR said:

Well said Grace. 

One of the worst things that people can do is to make sweeping generalisations. Given the end line of Snowy's original post I think that he or she knew exactly what they were doing!

And actually ... before you point the finger at hirers you would need to talk to all the boatyards and ask them to fit something other than a rev counter in their boats. And to ensure that everything works properly. The boat we had in May had a fish nav thing with a speedo but it didn't work. And the rev counter stayed on 1000 even when the engine was off and then moved up from there when you were going along. Impossible to have any kind of accurate idea of what speed you were doing other than by guesswork and intuition from experience.

Yes we did report this to the yard when we took the boat back. But I've no idea what the chances were of them fixing it on a busy Friday turnaround schedule.

Given that Snowy has made 8 posts on this topic I can only wonder whether you are trying to rack up posts towards the 50 for full membership.

Right, rant over, I'm off to work! 

I don't care for your silly 50 posts for full membership, leave me as an ordinary member, suits me fine

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5 minutes ago, Snowy said:

I don't care for your silly 50 posts for full membership, leave me as an ordinary member, suits me fine

Hmmm, yes I rather raised an eyebrow to the comment made that caused you to post that one. I did notice that earlier in this thread you posted 6 separate posts in one hit, but I thought it was just the way you preferred to present yourself. Fair enough in my book.

I will just say one thing however, and only to bring it to your attention in case you had not noticed.

There is a lot of "banter" between posters on this forum, and sometimes it can be misconstrued as actual criticism, to the point where people have become upset.

In my experience on this forum, nobody has ever posted with the intent to cause upset. usually it was something poorly written or unfortunately phrased. If something you read upsets you, it's almost certain that you have misread it or that the author "miswrote" it.

We all do it from time to time, read or write something the wrong way, so please bear in mind that we are not (as a rule) an aggressive bunch. :)

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Snowy, I am sorry that you feel some what miffed that you came to the Forum and made a post and it attracted such a reaction.  You may also feel further upset that a lot of this appeared to be direct upon you. 

The fact of the matter is that speeding on the rivers is to many people (and to you) a very big issue and one that causes strong reactions and emotions.  How you word a post on a 'delicate subject' like this and respond largely has an effect on where the conversation then steers. As you said yourself, you 'hid behind a wall and waited for replies' likely knowing that they would be in true NBN fashion wide ranging with a fare scoop of passion and feeling added.

As I have mentioned on a previous thread (which did not relate to speed) it would be very hard for a hire company to justify tracking holiday makers.  You would need to have a great deal of responsibility with the Information Commissioner about what happened to this data.  Let's face it, at the end of the day these businesses are in the business of providing holidays, not taking on the role as an authority to 'police bylaws'.

So what it really boils down to when it comes to speed is two things:

  1. Boats do not speed by themselves, it is up to whoever is at the wheel to be responsible and it is not hard to work out when one is speeding if they are constantly overtaking other boats about them, making a breaking wash (this especially obvious in a 4 MPH area) or otherwise ignoring more accurate means of knowing speed such as a GPS speedo.
  2. The chances of being caught speeding and the punishment for so doing are not deemed enough of a threat to stop those at the helm of boats show choose to speed to no longer do so.

What does make me whenever this is discussed here (or on any other community) is the fact I am certain if I were to be a passenger in the vehicle that the posters of comments had driven up to Norfolk in there would have been many times they would have been over the speed limit on roads. Roads where already you are traveling  many many times faster than a river which greater actual risks but that is seen as somehow acceptable, part of life, it just how it is sort of thing so why would people who are used to this change at all when on a river?

On the road you have numerous cameras, sometimes even actual Police patrols millions of pounds spend over the years on road safety campaigns and adverts and just look at the figures:

In reported road traffic accidents for the year ending March 2016:

  • there were 1,780 road deaths, unchanged from the year ending March 2015
  • 24,610 people were killed or seriously injured
  • there were 187,050 casualties of all severities
  • motor traffic levels rose by 1.8% over the same period

Ask yourself, how many people really stick to a 20 MPH limit on the roads all of the time? Now what the difference is when you are on the water I know not.  Perhaps it is a mental change in their minds that happens since the Broads is associated with taking things easy, a holiday and a natural beautiful environment  and not the A40 on a Monday morning? I recon this has something to do with it along with the fact that when a boat goes a little faster than the speed limit the amount of wash and general river disturbance it causes as it passes is greater so it is perceived causing more of an impact than a car that does 25 MPH in a 20 MPH area - little more wind movement, Tyre noise on road and little else to show that extra 5 MPH.

So what is the solution? 

I don’t see there being much that is going to suddenly stop it happening on the rivers.  Certainly boatyards have done as much as they can – boats are and have been for years restricted as to their maximum RPM’s by various means to prevent hirers ‘thrashing engines’ and also keeping the boats overall top speed down while also providing enough power to overcome a usual tidal flow.  

They have increasingly begun fitting GPS speedos and let us not leave out the many thousands of private boats that have nothing but a ‘rough idea’ as to what their speed is based upon RPM and then how far must the Broads Authority go with their resources on this when other people will be saying ‘spend more money on dredging’ and ‘what about the loss of moorings’ but also ‘we are not paying more for our Tolls’.

What a pickle it all is! And yet, all it requires is the everyday boater to take more through, and understand just how slow 4 MPH really is and how little water disturbance takes place at this speed.

 

 

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In my experience  50% of speeders are hire boats,  50% private boats and the other half are day boats or fishermen on small boats.  Now that is what you call balance. :default_biggrin:

95% of Boats plod along below the limit.

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Good call Psychic, and pretty much the reason there aren't the resources spent to police it more, from any sector. 

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The other thing is during peak season 95% of the hirefleet is out and 90% of private craft are in marinas during the week.

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It is all very well but so far I think you have all missed the main point - again.

Robin has talked (rightly) about attitudes to speed on the road. But the road does not move! In a tidal current on a river, the water does move. You are either punching the tide or running with it and this makes a great difference especially at such low speeds that we are discussing.

In coastal navigation there is a big difference between "boat speed" which is what you know your boat is doing through the water, according to the revs of the engine; and "speed made good" which is what you have actually travelled "over the ground". Over a two hour run, in a tidal current, this can make a difference of two or three miles, between your calculated position, and what you have actually travelled.

Here is an example :

In May, coming through Yarmouth, I was two hours late on the tide and so I went through GYYS on the full flood tide. I had to keep the engine up to 1300 revs or I would have lost steerage way, but my speed "made good" was, quite possibly, around 8 to 10 knots, so about 15 MPH.

So if I had been camera gunned by a ranger at that point, it would have been an interesting court case, since I had to maintain steerage way but equally, I was not making a ripple of wash when going past the moored boats.

And that is the whole point.

The reason for speed limits is to reduce wash, and this is what must be emphasised. From what others are saying on here, even the rangers cannot resolve the legal difference between "boat speed", and "speed made good".

I am afraid GPS is not the solution to this, fundamental, difference.

By the way, if you think there is a lot of wash on the north rivers these days, then you weren't around in the 60s and 70s!

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Don''t want to play devil's advocate here and yes I've been hacked off by boats speeding past and rocking us all over the show. Mostly believe it or not boats going past us when leaving the marina! but is it a huge problem needing all types of draconian measures so that boating is on par with all the other walks of life that have  become bogged down b y the" nanny state"? I don't think so.  Nor do I want it to be. I had a hire boat hurtle past me the other day. I just signalled him to slow down and held up my hand indicting the m.p.h. he should have been doing. He just looked a bit embarrassed and throttled back a little.  I imagine we've all broken the speed limits on occasion. We had a  GPS fitted because we got fed up with being pulled by rangers for being a little over the limit they had the common sense to realise we  were accidental sinners trusting our speedo which was,  unbeknown to us, rarely accurate. I think the last thing any of us who love the relaxed aspect of boats and boating wants is for it to be bogged down with heavy handed regulation and it seems to me these days that the powers that be don't know any other way other than  sledgehammer to crack a nut syndrome.

 

 

 

Carole

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Guest ExMemberKingFisher

The engine hour meter on my boat is broken, so I keep a record of engines hours versus miles travelled using a GPS and record all the details on a spreadsheet where I also track service items etc. The GPS is turned on as soon as the engine is started and off again as soon as we stop. My average speed for nearly 900 miles last year was 3.93mph and this year's tally is so far running at 3.96mph. I realise the true speeds will be fractionally higher due to the fact that we also record stationary time whilst leaving a mooring or arriving at a mooring, but other than that the engine is never run at a mooring so it is a fairly accurate reflection of our average speed. So not guilty of speeding your honour.

For me getting from A to B is about the journey and taking in the scenery, not just a means to an end to get to the next pub.

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5 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

The engine hour meter on my boat is broken, so I keep a record of engines hours versus miles travelled using a GPS and record all the details on a spreadsheet where I also track service items etc. The GPS is turned on as soon as the engine is started and off again as soon as we stop. My average speed for nearly 900 miles last year was 3.93mph and this year's tally is so far running at 3.96mph. I realise the true speeds will be fractionally higher due to the fact that we also record stationary time whilst leaving a mooring or arriving at a mooring, but other than that the engine is never run at a mooring so it is a fairly accurate reflection of our average speed. So not guilty of speeding your honour.

For me getting from A to B is about the journey and taking in the scenery, not just a means to an end to get to the next pub.

You sound like the ideal marina neighbour. unlike one we had recently who used to start his engine then go and make a cup of coffee and light a cigarette while he waited for his two incredibly old and fumey engines to warm up.  We had to ask him to desist from this habit as we quite literally couldn't  breathe and were both choking on the fumes. To our relief he changed moorings, We note he's recently changed again and are wondering if his next neighbours felt the same as us. The old chestnut "to run or not to run your engine on the mooring" I'm firmly in the latter camp.

 

 

Carole

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Guest ExMemberKingFisher

Yes I'm firmly in the latter camp. The engine is started when the first rope is about to be untied and it goes off again as soon as enough ropes are safely tied back on again. I'm firmly against casting off and then trying to start the engine, which I've seen done a couple of times, but if I've used springs, then I will untie those first leaving just two ropes on before starting the engine.

I'm also in the camp that firmly believes you are on holiday and on a boat and therefore your daily routine needs to be flexible. If there is no hot water in the morning then the shower waits. Likewise so will the washing up of the breakfast things. I will cruise somewhere for lunch and then do the washing up of the breakfast things, followed by a shower. My routine will vary based around the availability of hot water, rather than subject my neighbours to the annoying running of engine first thing in the morning just so I can have a shower, or do the washing up.

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Another thing to consider is waterline length. A 44 ft hire boat can glide along at 6MPH and make no wash, but a 20ft day launch at the same speed, will be ploughing through the water with its head in the air.

If, CarolE, the ranger has stopped you because you are making too much wash, then fair enough. If he suggests that your registered speed was 4.4 MPH instead of 4 MPH then that is ridiculously fatuous.

The whole point of all this is that you should MIND YOUR WASH.

 

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Well this entire thread can be summed up with the point Vaughan made: " The reason for speed limits is to reduce wash, and this is what must be emphasised".

Indeed when you go through some of the old paper cuttings archived on the Broadland Memories website there are the first beginnings of speed limits.  From trying to match RPM to MPH to trials of different boats and hull designs and then later to having speed limits and signage (different to today's type)  but the underlying issue was wash and trying to reduce it.

Not so long back I remember when the new speed limits came in.  Many open reaches of the rivers were 'unrestricted' and would have a sign like this:

671---National-speed.gif

Then other areas such as Hickling Broad was 7Mph - but unrestricted areas vanished, as did 7Mph and in came the new 4Mph, 5Mph and 6Mph that we see today this was all in a bid to get on top of bank erosion and silting.

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4 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Hmmm, yes I rather raised an eyebrow to the comment made that caused you to post that one. I did notice that earlier in this thread you posted 6 separate posts in one hit, but I thought it was just the way you preferred to present yourself. Fair enough in my book.

I will just say one thing however, and only to bring it to your attention in case you had not noticed.

There is a lot of "banter" between posters on this forum, and sometimes it can be misconstrued as actual criticism, to the point where people have become upset.

In my experience on this forum, nobody has ever posted with the intent to cause upset. usually it was something poorly written or unfortunately phrased. If something you read upsets you, it's almost certain that you have misread it or that the author "miswrote" it.

We all do it from time to time, read or write something the wrong way, so please bear in mind that we are not (as a rule) an aggressive bunch. :)

I was purely replying to each comment I felt needed a reply

I didn't realise this was a numbers issue

I'm all for banter, and hope I've not upset anyone 

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No upset here Snowy, we all tend to reply as an when we see fit. 

So continue as you have done, it's good to have you here

:default_beerchug:

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I have a chartplotter on board that shows me exactly what speed I'm doing over ground, and I take no notice of it most of the time as speed over ground limits are worthless on tidal water and achieve sod all unless about to moor and then you should be way below cruising speed anyway, as said before wash is the key and slow down for moored boats regardless of wether over the limit or not.

You will often see boats going through reedham past the ranger at 7mph + and he pays no attention if going with a strong tide, go through at 5mph against it and you will probably get the paddle waved at you.

It's common sense and consideration, don't try to keep up over breydon when it's a clear run though....

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2 hours ago, KingfishersTime said:

The engine is started when the first rope is about to be untied and it goes off again as soon as enough ropes are safely tied back on again. I'm firmly against casting off and then trying to start the engine, which I've seen done a couple of times, but if I've used springs, then I will untie those first leaving just two ropes on before starting the engine.

Sorry but I was always taught you never cast off a mooring with a cold engine, as a cold engine is more likely to stall. I will carry on doing this no matter who dont like it. The safety of vessel and people aboard is far more important, than upsetting some one with a few minutes of exhaust fumes, easy answer shut your windows and doors. BTW I was taught this when doing my DTI charter boat license, by a WW II sea captain who i both respected and admired for what he did for this country in the second world war. . That was in late 60's nothing has really changed my mind on that over the years.

But then thats a whole different subject to speeding sorry.

Charlie

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Sorry Charlie, I don't quite agree with you there.  I have never (to my recollection) stalled a boat engine. To my mind, the time it takes to untie all the ropes is more than enough to warm the engine to a reliable point.

In a car I wouldn't warm the engine for longer than that even on a coolish day. In the winter perhaps a couple of minutes, or as long as it takes to clear the windscreen of frost.

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In all my years of boating I don't think I have ever had an engine stall.  Conditions that make cars stall don't really exist on the water but I suppose its just possible.  For whatever thats worth!!

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21 minutes ago, Bound2Please said:

Sorry but I was always taught you never cast off a mooring with a cold engine, as a cold engine is more likely to stall. I will carry on doing this no matter who dont like it. The safety of vessel and people aboard is far more important, than upsetting some one with a few minutes of exhaust fumes, easy answer shut your windows and doors. BTW I was taught this when doing my DTI charter boat license, by a WW II sea captain who i both respected and admired for what he did for this country in the second world war. . That was in late 60's nothing has really changed my mind on that over the years.

But then thats a whole different subject to speeding sorry.

Charlie

 Sorry Charlie got to disagree on this. Engine running for as long as it takes to  untie the ropes is ample. I would have though that engines of today are more efficient and therefore less likely to stall than those of 50 years ago. In 40 years of boating  I've never known an engine stall in the circumstances in which we've always pushed off.  The boat fumes I mentioned in my earlier post, caused us considerable breathing distress while we were in our saloon with all doors and windows closed, if either of us suffered from respiratory problems  as so many folk do these days, I dread to think of the danger we would have been in. I really thought the level of fumes was dangerous and that is no exaggeration. It's not just your boat and your passenger's safety that needs to be considered. Sorry for the rant but |I feel quite strongly about this issue.

 

 

CarolE

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I think I can guess the boat you mean CarolE. His twin engines are rather loud and very smokey. Sounds a bit like a pub I used to like. :)

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CarolE ...The engine on Bound 2 Please is at a guess is over 50 years old a BMC 1500 possibly the original engine to the boat???.  It is neither smokey or excessively noisy.  It starts first time even in the winter and is well looked after.  When I am in charge of any vessel, on the broads or at sea, the people who are aboard are my responsibility, There safety is paramount. So an engine warming up for a few minutes it will still be. Sorry but thats life.

Charlie

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