Big Changes Ahead

[Wyndham]

9 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

... Or you run out of life.

Brilliant line....I wish you well.

There's a man I meet walks up our street..."Dignity"

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, imtamping2 said:

I would assume the tender will be called "Day".......

I could be really clever and just refer to it as 4.7.96  

[Broads01]

The very best of luck Robin, whatever happens. Becoming Norwich based you'll be well placed to do lots of hire boat reviews, whahey! 

[Springsong]

Robin do it. We had wanted to buy a Trader / trawler yacht back in the day, we left it too late and life overtook us. So to repeat myself Robin do it  Traders are great boats.

[Polly]

Go for it!

[Malanka]

Lovely boat Robin and a great legacy.

 

Go with the dream. Life is too short you only get one go at it. Says he with one wife, three offspring, currently four dogs, and lived and worked in four different countries in the past 15 years. Go for it. 

 

Full steam ahead.

[LondonRascal]

I've been making some enquires today about the engines that the boat I am keen on has installed (CAT 3196's) - now to be honest I have some mixed feelings about Caterpillar engines because while the everyday serviceable items are things any competent person can deal with, anything outside this and you need a more specialist service personnel.  These are not that easy to come by and the 'go to' place seems to be down in the south coast called Fining (big company) but only have three places in the UK that can deal with CAT Marine Engines. One in Poole, another in Reading and finally in Aberdeen. The boat has had a full service history with their operations in Poole

Now, if you have a Volvo Penta  engine, while perhaps not so common on the Broads, they are ubiquitous and someone is never too far with the knowledge and tools not to mention the fact that parts are easy to find online too.  Now try finding parts online for a CAT engine and their costs - it not straight forward.

Now of course running any large powered marine engine is not going to be doable on pocket money but  things are suddenly looking very costly from the information I have gleaned so far.

The engine needs a service ever 250hrs which is quite a short interval considering some of the more modern Iveco, Yanmar and Volvo Penta engines might have up to a 600hr service interval.

The CAT 3196 suffered from heat exchanger/aftercooler problems and CAT had a big lawsuit in the US about this some years back.   If not dealt with the metal within the exchangers( the wrong type used to begin with so I understand) this ends up where it should not causing a lot of issues with the engine down the line.  This is somewhat of a worry if the boat has engines effected and works to replace the heat exchangers were not carried out. So that is something else to look into, and defo have all fluids sent for analysis  It is common that Glycol is found in the oil on these engines when the results come back and this is down to  the head gasket beginning to leak just a tad.  If the oil pressure is good it is not too serious but will get worse in time. I've read to have new head gaskets fitted can cost something like £5,000 plus -  and you can double that if both engines have the issue.  

The impellers don't last much over a year either which drive Sherwood Pumps - the cheapest I have found is ASAP Supplies at £197.33 each and of course two are needed.

Each engine needs 12 Zinc Anodes and again you are advised to change these every season, so 24 of those little things and that works out to £144.00 from ASAP Supplies.

Next up is oil, each engine needs 25 litres of the stuff and the advised choice is go with CAT oil but CAT don't actually make engine oil. The engines do need the right additive mix mind you and I have found that  Exol marine123 exceeds these standards  and two 25 litre drums come in at £106.00 - but you've got to add on delivery if not collecting from a distributor. Each engine also needs 19 litres of coolant, which while not needing to be changed at every service is not going to be cheap for the right stuff and mix.

So for a 250 hr service, parts only would be over £600.00 - plus  the all important oil filters  and fuel filters (unable to find prices online) . Now I am the first one to admit this is all new to me on this scale, and someone with an equivalent output Volvo Penta might say "well that is about what it costs me" the issue I have is not so much the money it is the ease in which Volvo Penta man can find, price up, and but the parts online. You can't even just presume that the engine in your boat can accept the cheaper items the same engine in a digger might use, since CAT are clever and each item is application dependent to serial number - marine engines parts cost more than the engine parts used in construction equipment - funny that.

I'd take a guess that since Broom have fitted some high power CAT engines in their boats they would be the local 'go to' place for support outside the usual service items one can handle on ones own, and advise more about parts and so on.  The other thing is the boat has been close to the inland waterways, so that is the fun of a BSS to have done and you can bet your boots that is going to throw up a number of things needing to be changed in order to pass.

Still, nobody said this would be a walk in the park.

 

[ScrumpyCheddar]

You Get what you pay for... 

You won't beat a CAT or Volvo Penta or good old Cummings....

Stay clear of  Iveco... absolute litter...

you can get patent oil filters like Mann or Fram filters.. and good oils out there to.. just fit genuine parts if they go like a oil pump part etc...

 

[Guest]

Its always been the same , big boats need big wallets , that said a vetus 33hp oil and fuel filters including the tiny one in the lift pump is approx £50 , the humble BMC 1.5  2x fuel filters and oil filter is less than £10 . 

[finny]

Great engines ,a good few years ago ERF trucks fitted cat engines in their range at the customers request - the main reason being running costs because they run very very well on CNG (gas ) and its a lot cheaper and cleaner than diesel although it needs to start up on diesel until a certain temp is reached  .The firm i was working for at that time had quite a few in the fleet they used patent parts and i think the oil came from Morris oils in bulk  a waggon could clock up to between 30.000 and 40.000 miles before it got its oil changed and many of these trucks got up 800,000 miles and gave no real problems - bullet proof 

Finny

[DaveB]

B.M.C. for me every time 

But then everyone knows I squeek when I walk 

[finny]

BMC another bullet proof engine - over the years of owning the boat i did many trials with different oils some of the more expensive burned down the stick although i can say they did not produced more smoke - the best results i had was using comma 20 /50 mineral oil ,i used to take my main two week hols on the boat i also chucked a pint of engine oil into a full tank of diesel knowing i would be burning most of the fuel off and what an engine that was and still going strong 

 

finny

[finny]

Sorry Robin for going off topic 

 

Finny

[Guest]

1 hour ago, finny said:

BMC another bullet proof engine - over the years of owning the boat i did many trials with different oils some of the more expensive burned down the stick although i can say they did not produced more smoke - the best results i had was using comma 20 /50 mineral oil ,i used to take my main two week hols on the boat i also chucked a pint of engine oil into a full tank of diesel knowing i would be burning most of the fuel off and what an engine that was and still going strong 

 

finny

Exactly the oil I use in mine and never had an issue 

[Londonlad1985]

I don't know much about boats, but I do know London is a young man's game! I've always said I'll give it up at 40 (maybe easier for me as I'm not a native to the city). I dare say 'Doing a Rascal' will be the accepted synonym for getting out of London before long (at least on this forum). Best of luck with it all and I look forward to seeing how it all unfolds!

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Snowy]

So the London Rascal is possibly moving from London to Norwich and buying a boat

may I make some suggestions on a new NBN forum name...

Norwich Rascal

Floating Rascal 

The London to Norwich Rascal

And my personal favourite The Norwich Floater

good luck Robin in your new venture, I'm not jealous at all !

[grendel]

no it has to remain the same- after all you can take the rascal from London, but you cant take the London from the rascal.

[ChrisB]

Volvo marine engines are not cheap for spares, I think any high speed marine oil burner especially if turbo assisted is a fairly expensive business, that is why my preference would always be for a rigorously maintained single in a Nordhavn or Grand Banks style of boat. In the size of boat that you have set your sights on Robin a single would produce huge savings in fuel and maintenance and most likely a substantially longer range.

[ChrisB]

3 hours ago, Jonzo said:

I think a shaft drive is the way to go for definite, talking to the salty bottoms in the past I know a lot of the costly problems were associated with the legs on outdrives - And they can cost thousands in one hit to have repaired. Not ideal if you break down away from home!

I have owned a Mercruiser Outdrive and a Yanmar Saildrive. Timely maitenance is crucial to both. Once you basically start putting the drive through two 90 degree bends you start to increase friction , heat, wear the whole gambit. Also why compromise the integrity of the hull with big holes? Both saildrives and outdrives are as you say thousands when they fail. I would never have another.

[LondonRascal]

Well thanks for the replies - and I apologise if having 'come out' about this here and you will now be subjected to my long posts and thoughts.

I have to say what a wonderful resource Google (and the wider Web) really is. Within a short time today I was able to find a lot more information and I am now more confident about matters (so far as one can be at this stage), after all I there is a long way to go but I like to be a prepared as possible.

The reason I had a ‘wobbly moment’ was reading up about things – even in videos from ‘experts’ working for Yachting & Boating World and they will mention CAT engines with praise for their power and ruggedness and then counter it with a line such as ‘so long as you have a local CAT specialist’ as if not to have such would be a terrible move.

I have also been looking online for serviceable items from Volvo Penta and once you are in the this sort of horsepower range, the items might be easier to locate from various sources online, but the prices are often the same (sometimes more) and if you look for faults in any brand you will find them.

The absolute key to anything is looking after the oily bits. Good quality oils and regular oil changes will do a great deal to keep any engine happy. CAT engines are a little odd in so far as the official advice is to fit filters (both for fuel and oil) dry.  I can see the reason so far as the oil – the engine still will be thoroughly coated in oil after the sump has been pumped and the oil pump shift great qualities of oil quickly. In short you’d not run the engine dry and would take 3-5 seconds to get oil pressure up and make changing the filter so much easy as it would be light work to lift.

Here is a tip: If you do pre-fill an oil filter never do it from the centre hole for this is the ‘clean side’ so you are just putting unfiltered (albeit new but possibly contaminated) but oil into your engine. Fill from the smaller outside holes which circle the large hole that way the new oil then has to pass through the filter medium once screwed in place and you start the engine up.

I don’t agree with the idea of fitting dry fuel filters mind you. Injectors and the fuel system on modern engines are hugely expensive items, and injectors do not like to be run with air through them, which you’d force them to do if did not prime a fuel filter. Again pre-fill from the outer holes, bung the centre hole if you need to and always have a secondary off engine fuel filter system too. Here is a nightmare with the BBS and what they will and will not allow so far as glass bowl type filter and water separators go.

Now, moving on to John and your link to a Broom Ocean 38 – the problem I have with these (and not just this model actually even larger and newer models) is there is a great deal of ‘hire boat’ feel about them. What I mean by this is take the heads and the sink moulding and then the acres of vinyl on the headlining and cabin sides.  It lakes that special, cosy and warm feeling not to mention ‘wow factor’.

I was looking at Broom 50 that is up for sale with NYA. Lovely no doubt, but you can only helm from up top – imagine that on a damp, cold day with all the condensation inside the windows and the cold metal wheel to hold. It also suffers from having this obsession with seating everywhere which to my eye looks odd and uses otherwise handy space to put things.

I have seen some lovely boats out there, three cabins say – but all double beds – this limits the boats accommodation a great deal, or where you have a large boat masses of space and yet only sleeps 4 in two large cabins. It is funny how ‘we on the Broads’ are happy and used to a cabin without the need of an ensuite or that a couple of small berths are fine but this would horrify some. As I mentioned above, some boats seem to go the other way, smaller cabins, but made up with masses of damn seats! Seats outside and up on the fly bridge, seats in saloon curving to the left and more seats curving right just ahead of them – some even then have a dinette opposite the galley in with yet more seats – and you know why? Because if you own one of these you don’t actually have guests onboard to stay you have parties onboard and need to accommodate bums sat down and champagne flutes.

I like the idea to plan a proper trip, take the time, enjoy the journey not at 30 knots being pushed around and holding on but a more sedate cruise. A proper galley you can actually make a meal in not a combi microwave, hot plate and small bowel sink. A sink you stand at in the heads and it not be made from fibre glass and a shower with a Teak grate the small touches that remind you this is a real boat for comfort.

But finally, the other big eye opener is when you want to go with some high end navigational tech - we are used to computers, laptops, tablets and phones and the prices you get with such technology, but this is not a 'buy one for all' solution, I am going to have cut back on somethings as I priced out some Simrad gear and that came on in at over £31,000.  Few less bells and whistles me thinks lol.

[Polly]

Ohhh Trader looked beautiful! I loved the materials used to finish her, no acreage of white plastic.

[BroadAmbition]

Whatever power plants you end up with, servicing / maintenance etc can easily be a diy thing, that's a decent saving

Griff

[ChrisB]

Robin,

You are obviously very set on this. May I offer a piece of advice? As you reside in London why not join The Little Ship Club. They are just off Upper Thames Street EC4 you will meet all sorts there and they have some wonderful speakers from time to time. Also when you wish to go "back to the smoke" their accommodation is very reasonable for London.

They run all types of courses and if you want to go foreign you should really be able to navigate with paper chart, parallel rules, and protractor and transfer your electronic data to paper. At sea, unless you are truely "Blue Water" and especially around our crowded coastline you need to know where you are at all times and should those electronics go down!!!!! Which Ss law says they will probably in a North Sea Haar you are not lost. And in any case knowing how to navigate traditionally is very satisfying.

[LondonRascal]

6 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Whatever power plants you end up with, servicing / maintenance etc can easily be a diy thing, that's a decent saving

Griff

Indeed. I have found where the usual parts can be got now, and their estimated costs. Will be a case of filters from CAT direct, oils and grease from EXOL - a UK based company with really helpful tech team to talk with over the phone. They can supply CAT approved coolant pre-mixed in 25 litre amounts too. The ASAP supplies for impellers and Zincs.

I have also found uprated, high efficiency oil filters that would fit the engine direct from CAT with a smaller micron element to catch more contaminates ideal as engines get older.

 

[LondonRascal]

Chris, I am a novice so far as navigation but a sponge for information. Although I have been practicing with paper charts for a while and RYA training tools. This might cause some 'annoyance' to old school hands with what I am going to say, but these days I don't think paper charts are required so long as you have suitable electronic solutions and multiple redundancies to them.

Navigating by a paper chart is like reading a book, there is something comforting about it and its natural skill, but with major shipping pretty much all using ECIDS now I wonder how long the need for paper charts will be there, and so far as the Maritime & Coastguard Agency are concerned if you are pleasure craft under 150gt you do not need to carry paper charts anyway.

The issue so many refer to mind you is: 'it is all very well but what happens when the system crashes' - now this is a good point, one why I would never use FURUNO based prosumer products as their base software has been Microsoft XP. They do crash and just no, not for me. I could go over other manufactures and show the pluses and minuses but tell me this, when did your sat-nav, tablet or smartphone last actually 'crash' - you know, freeze up can't do a damn thing with it type thing? Well, for me over several devices it never has.

So if you have a custom software, on custom a built device tested over many thousands of hours I would be happy to bet it will not cause issue, but I would not rule it out never happening. In the last 3 years especially, the advances in marine electronics have been massive - and make any sort of course or book on their use seem vastly outdated.  

But, to begin  I would never have them run off the same domestic battery circuit - I'd have mine on a separate, sealed power system so if the main battery/power system goes tits up navigation stays running. If the unit itself crashes or breaks, there would be a separate system - synced via onboard WiFi to the first (master) and then finally by Tablet and Phone apps. Therefore to loose a phone, tablet, back up sub-system and master system would be unprecedented.

Despite all this, and knowing where you are you have needed to still be very aware even with auto helms as they have a problem - they don't really think much for themselves and don;t take into account tidal drift and wind direction and what this may cause the boat to do during its passage. - not a big issue for a short trip, but if you left Great Yarmouth for Holland you might not end up where you expected. So having a smart system that can counter this in real time and take account of prevailing wind speed and direction and cause the boats rudders to continually adjust between way points is handy and would be installed.

So that is the knowing where you and going to sorted what about what is around you? Well commercial grade AIS will show you where large shipping is (and them where you are) and the latest solid state radar will pick up a lobster pot float from several miles out to 20feet. Forward scan sonar also helps with detecting shallows ahead, and will talk to the auto helm and chart plotter to raise the alarm if automated action is not possible. But what happens when something happens that may not be anything to do with the boat, someone falls, has a heart attack etc? You need contact the shore fast. Now sure you've got good old VHF and with DSC, but it can also be handy to have a phone - wherever you are that will work, so an Inmarsat Isatphone will be onboard, The boat will also have an EBIRB itself and crews life jackets can be fitted with a PLB (personal locator beacon).