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Polly

Brilliant

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Like these stories but with Aristotle and Socrates members I may have to change my log in to 

Dionysus.

paul

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That would mean that instead of writing "ZimbilV Rules" it would have to be....    Dionysius Rex ! 

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No not Rex that’s Latin, however I have no idea what king is in Greek so no doubt we will soon have a post that sets it straight :default_coat:

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3 hours ago, Aristotle said:

Oh dear - what have I said now :34_rolling_eyes:.

On reflection though, Socrates is probably referring  to the four causes from Aristotle's Physics Book 2 section 3 :

5ac494bf172b7_NBNAristotlesfourcauses.jpg.0876581055b68d87655d26488ef5a776.jpg

This suggests that if the design, methods and skills, and purpose remains the same, it is still the same object even if you change the wood - I'm going to say that I have complete belief in this :45_persevere::63_astonished: for the following reason: I have the utmost admiration for Polly and her tenacity in sourcing good quality larch for the work on Brilliant. I have to come clean that (mainly because of the difficulty in finding quality larch)  Kenmure's new planking is mahogany :51_scream:.

Oops - have I just made a confession to defend the real Aristotle when Socrates was actually referring to something that I said :42_confused:?

As an engineer not a philosopher I say 100% of the original needs to be replaced, at which point it becomes a replica

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Well it’s nowhere near 100% despite the scary numbers in lengths of larch. There  must be upwards of 1000ft in the whole boat.

390ft per side + transom + all decks + bulkheads + fit out

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4 hours ago, grendel said:

Anax or Basileus according to google

Doesn't sound as good though. I was trained in the Archant school of facts, so Rex it is.

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5 hours ago, Philosophical said:

As an engineer not a philosopher I say 100% of the original needs to be replaced, at which point it becomes a replica

Well yes, as a philosopher I have to say that is one point of view :14_relaxed:.

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“Once this is all settled there is a hole in the hog to repair, which will necessitate dropping the keel to access the planks.”

 

Who  mentioned the keel ! I certainly hope it doesn’t need to come off but I cannot say the same for the rudder :default_beerchug:

Edited by brundallNavy
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I now have a temporary varnishing shelter on the patio. £29 from Roy’s :50px-Semaphore_Uniform.svg:

D6BF638F-6D7F-495F-9ADC-6FEFB3D7B94C.jpeg

DFE4A716-3C46-468D-A802-CEB642BBDDAC.jpeg

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Ohhh that is a relief, I thought you mentioned the keel! :default_coat:

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22 hours ago, Aristotle said:

Well yes, as a philosopher I have to say that is one point of view :14_relaxed:.

Indeed, to what extent is the HMS Victory currently in Portsmouth Dockyard, the same as the HMS Victory in which Nelson died in 1805? 

A point worth considering with regard to wooden boats. Are we creating replicas containing a few of the original pieces, or are we restoring originals?

This topic kept Madam Captain ( more of a theologian) and I busy for several hours on a recent visit to Cutty Sark. Of course, Cutty Sark had suffered catastrophic fire damage and has been re-built. Perhaps, we can conclude the vessel in London is a replica?

Such questions are important when considering any form of conservation/restoration etc. For example: Do we up-grade a domestic water system from the original? Fit modern technology? or do we keep the water system  the same as the original? 

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Ok try this line of enquiry: in what does the essence of the boat lie, it's constituent, and replaceable parts, or in the whole?

Are we in fact relating our perception of 'boat' to some shadow we saw last time we were chained in a cave? :default_biggrin: :default_coat:

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20 hours ago, Polly said:

Ok try this line of enquiry: in what does the essence of the boat lie, it's constituent, and replaceable parts, or in the whole?

Are we in fact relating our perception of 'boat' to some shadow we saw last time we were chained in a cave? :default_biggrin: :default_coat:

Now we are bringing Plato into the mix!  It has been said: "All philosophy is a footnote to Plato."

I would be inclined to say the essence of the boat is firmly within the whole, not just the constituent and replaced parts. Therefore, a restored boat would not be a replica but the restored boat. 

 

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2 hours ago, socrates said:

Now we are bringing Plato into the mix!  It has been said: "All philosophy is a footnote to Plato."

I would be inclined to say the essence of the boat is firmly within the whole, not just the constituent and replaced parts. Therefore, a restored boat would not be a replica but the restored boat. 

 

Even if there was none of the original?

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I would say that the form of the boat reflects the original intentions of the builders and therefore remains even when much, or even all, of the structure is renewed.

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Even if there was none of the original?


If that isn’t true then what about us?
Every cell in our bodies is replaced at least every six years isn’t it?
Does that make us Trigger’s broom?
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1 hour ago, JohnK said:

 


If that isn’t true then what about us?
Every cell in our bodies is replaced at least every six years isn’t it?
Does that make us Trigger’s broom?

 

When I look in a mirror at myself, I can see an awful lot that is more than six years old!

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10 hours ago, Philosophical said:

When I look in a mirror at myself, I can see an awful lot that is more than six years old!

Oh dear - this raises all kinds of philosophical questions (as I'm sure you realised when you said it :10_wink:):

How good is your eye sight :26_nerd:?

Quite how "awful" is the face you're looking at :10_wink:?

Given that you are looking at a mirror image of yourself you are, by definition, looking at a distorted version of reality anyway!

As humans, we are very aware that we change over time (we like to call it becoming mature), there are animal species whose life cycle involves metamorphosis which is much more dramatic change, embryos develop, eggs hatch, rocks weather, cheese ripens etc.

The idea that things remain unchanged throughout their lifetime is a fallacy. Unchanging stability is something we are capable of imagining but probably never happens in reality.

At least, that is one point of view ....

So perhaps we should accept that change is inevitable and that restoration is just part of the "maturing" process.

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13 hours ago, Polly said:

I would say that the form of the boat reflects the original intentions of the builders and therefore remains even when much, or even all, of the structure is renewed.

Back to Plato and the Theory of the Forms. Excellent. A boat is only ever the "form" of a boat. 

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2 hours ago, Aristotle said:

Oh dear - this raises all kinds of philosophical questions (as I'm sure you realised when you said it :10_wink:):

How good is your eye sight :26_nerd:?

Quite how "awful" is the face you're looking at :10_wink:?

Given that you are looking at a mirror image of yourself you are, by definition, looking at a distorted version of reality anyway!

As humans, we are very aware that we change over time (we like to call it becoming mature), there are animal species whose life cycle involves metamorphosis which is much more dramatic change, embryos develop, eggs hatch, rocks weather, cheese ripens etc.

The idea that things remain unchanged throughout their lifetime is a fallacy. Unchanging stability is something we are capable of imagining but probably never happens in reality.

At least, that is one point of view ....

So perhaps we should accept that change is inevitable and that restoration is just part of the "maturing" process.

Restoration or re-creation?

One would hardly restore with rotten and faded wood to restore the boat to the pre restoration condition.

Interestingly Jaguar have a bit a controvosy over the D Type Jaguar, back in 1955 they intended to make 100 cars, in the event they only made 75. A year or so ago they decided to "make" the remaining 25 which I think are in production now. Some societies have refused to accept these 25 as originals calling them replicas.. 

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Blimey I never thought a mere immortal would every speaks to Gods :default_biggrin:

its a simple end to the argument of Restoration or re-creation 

if the engine is running or in this case if the sail is full of wind then it becomes restoration 

should it become merely a ornament or museum pierce its more a re-creation of history 

 

" taxi for finny "

finny

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Don't you just sometimes dislike technology.........let me re-address the start of my last post as the forum will not permit an edit 

" blimey I never thought a mere mortal would ever speak to the Gods :default_biggrin:"

off now in need of much  prediction text restoration 

finny 

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