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Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care


LondonRascal

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1 hour ago, BroomSedan said:

While the ZF Controller topic is still running, just for me to understand it better, how when it has been returned to neutral and tick over is it stopping the engine or stalling in some way as Robin mentioned

I wish I knew. As you slowly move the throttle lever back towards neutral the engine revs are not slowly declining but suddenly jumping down some 1,500RPM to 800 RPM in a single jump. You then move the lever to increase rev slowly, and then nothing happens suddenly it jumps back up though this time to 1,800 RPM. Then you try again to reduce and it does respond a little better just a couple of hundred RPM so you try and slowly bring it back down to neutral and the revs just fall - as if you have rapidly thrown the throttle to the closed position.

 I think before the engine had reached operating temperature what was happening is the unit it rapidly moving the engine throttle up and down (which you would never do yourself or want to) and the result was the engine stopped and I was no about to re-start, there was no need since we only run it up to show friends how it sounded.

About two weeks back I was on the boat and and ran both engines up for maybe 30 minutes until they were at operating temp. This was in order to burn fuel faster and reduce levels in my centre tank - so I also had the Generator running under load and heater all from the same tank.

Now when I did this, I had no issues with the commander - and that is what makes this entire problem such a big and frustrating one. You cannot have a boat where only sometimes have you got full control over your engines and then leave it a couple of weeks and now you do not.

I have been living with not being able to use the flybridge station and had found I could get a replacement for about $800.00 from a company over in America. However now I seem to have issue with the lower helm station too.  The only thing that  changed is that terrible cold spell and what also happened was a lot of condensation forming inside my engine room from the super cold metal and not so cold air - breaker boxers, fuse panels and looms that all are part of the ZF system had  moisture on  them but all this is meant to be in a boat, and up to the harsh marine environment and is said to be sealed. I can appreciate keeping it from being submerged or in contact with high temperature or salt water but if some cold and damp has caused more issues then whatever next!

I have been pricing up component parts of a cable system with Morse controls so I am leaning toward taking that step. I know most Traders of this vintage have fly by wire systems, usually made by Kobelt. Independence never had (so far as I can tell) a traditional cable system but I know the ZF system was fitted to replace something else. Perhaps that was Kobelt system.  Why did the chap previously remove what was there and spend so many thousands on the ZF system - I suspect because the first system packed up so opted for a replacement. He also specced the remote controller to operate the engines and thrusters only adding to the systems complexities and cost.  Here is a link to the company who put it in, and so proud of it they were they featured it on their website. http://www.allboatservices.co.uk/abstrader.html#content

Despite things sounding awfully technical the actual system is not that fancy - it is slow baud serial connections with very few parameters to be communicated between head and controller, but boy look at the setting up and options you have on the controller boxes - they go on for pages. Take setting up the delay from full ahead to full astern to mean if you ever attempted such, the system would wait x seconds before it engaged astern to protect the gearboxes, but the delay and set up is all done with a stopwatch and codes inputted at the time. I like my fancy tech but this time I am more for simple mechanical I think.

 

 

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Hi Robin, Thanks for the reply. As you say, if the engines were stone cold and a fast drop down to tick over may have been enough to stall. It just seemed an odd coincidence for something that had been working fine to stop ticking over and start ranging up and down the revs at the same time without there being a connection between the two faults. The actuator movement shouldn't be able to make the tick over too low. As I had mentioned we had a similar problem with a Volvo and it was the balance springs in the govenor - not the first things you would suspect. I tend to puzzle over mechanical issues like this as you never know when a similar issue could occur on our boat. I am sure you are right to be confident in NYA.

Really excited to hear about your new boat. Best of luck, Ken and Joan.

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4 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

The ZF Micro Commander heads are said to be full sealed - from above, under them though they are exposed.

Not only that but they are not continuous wiring either they are in pigtails with plugs. So your problem may not be with the heads themselves but the wiring loom,.And specifically those plugs

pigtails.PNG

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5 hours ago, FairTmiddlin said:

Not only that but they are not continuous wiring either they are in pigtails with plugs. So your problem may not be with the heads themselves but the wiring loom,.And specifically those plugs

pigtails.PNG

I had a problem caused by moisture in one of the connectors, once cleaned & dried the problem was fixed.

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I'm sure this has probably been thoroughly investigated, but I wonder whether the controllers are out of sync with each other and need recalibrating/resetting. I know this happens on car electric windows from time to time (not an entirely different set-up really) as they have up/down (forwd/aft) and you can have multiple switches operating the same motor (think drivers side control, operating pass side, and rear windows).

Just a thought, as I say I'm sure it's been investigated already. I had to reset the windows on one of my cars the other day, and it struck me it was a similar sort of issue.

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Robin,

The ZF manual says (Page 97) "10.2.1 Control Head The primary function of the Control Head is to send out a variable DC voltage to the Processor. This DC voltage is representative of the Control Head’s present lever position.", so it is not a digital system it is analogue from the control levers to the processor box.

On page 105 it says "the command signal is between approximately 0.8 VDC at Full Astern to 4.10 VDC at Full Ahead.", so it looks like the total range is 3.3V or about 1.67V either side of the neutral position.  If  "full throttle" corresponds to 3000 rpm, then there is only about 0.06 Volts change per 100 rpm (less if max' rpm is higher), so the engine variations you have experienced may have been caused by very small voltage changes.

Given the long cable runs, the various joints and connectors, proximity of radios, radar, fridges, D.C. motors for pumps etc.  I'm surprised it works at all!  Grendel has already suggested a noisy potentiometer (variable resistor) may be the problem (like the "scratchy" volume controls on old radios and televisions).  If it is possible to clean it, as he suggested, and then the situation might improve, but it should be possible to see the voltage change at the processor as the throttle(s) is/are moved.  If it is not smooth then you have found the problem  (rapidly cycling the lever end-to-end, with the power off can help sometimes too!).  I think that other "noise" in the circuit from other electrical/electronic devices could be a problem, particularly if there is any hint of corrosion or moisture at the joints.  It would be very difficult for you to know if the erratic engine behaviour correlated with something else running (e.g. bilge pump), but it's worth a thought.

The ZF MARINE web site says: "We have established a reputation for reliable, responsive control systems" So you may get some help from them if you tell them how unreliable it is, particularly if you know that this system has not been installed for very long (from http://www.allboatservices.co.uk and the boat's paperwork).

Good luck with the investigations.  I don't know where I would even start.

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Robin, maybe disconnect all plug connectors, then paper roll, hairdryer, wd40 and see if this improves matters?  Do the same with the control boxes in t engine room too?

I think this sums it up perfectly.

That is not a hard thing to do is it? But think about this a moment - I have 23 odd Tones of boat propelled by a thousand horsepower and in order to have confidence and control of the boat and her maneuverability, after a damp spell of weather I have to consider disconnecting plugs, using WD40 and drying out sockets - and perhaps getting a meter and measuring voltages. They call this progress?

It is like keeping a hammer in the car ready to give the starter motor a whack on an old Ford on a cold morning.

 

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It is like keeping a hammer in the car ready to give the start motor a whack on an old Ford on a cold morning.
 

More like having to give the brakes a wack before they’ll work!

I assume at some point the electronics become mechanical. A linkage on the injector pump? Are you certain that’s moving freely?

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13 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

I think this sums it up perfectly.

That is not a hard thing to do is it? But think about this a moment - I have 23 odd Tones of boat propelled by a thousand horsepower and in order to have confidence and control of the boat and her maneuverability, after a damp spell of weather I have to consider disconnecting plugs, using WD40 and drying out sockets - and perhaps getting a meter and measuring voltages. They call this progress?

It is like keeping a hammer in the car ready to give the starter motor a whack on an old Ford on a cold morning.

 

When cars had SU fuel pumps, they regularly needed a whack to make them work in the morning

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This ZF system is out of date tech, not original to the boat and even if this fault can be fixed it sounds like (and I would feel the same) like you have lost confidence in it and it would be a constant niggle in your mind whenever using the boat. A new Morse system will still cost a fair bit but that's it then , job done, confidence restored, and from what you have said in the past it sounds like you much prefer the tactile feel of a mechanical system anyway

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14 minutes ago, JohnK said:

I assume at some point the electronics become mechanical. A linkage on the injector pump? Are you certain that’s moving freely?

Yes it is freely able to move - take off the cable and move the engine throttle and she will rev instantly and very responsively.

I have emailed NYA a copy of the manual, link to ZF and given them some hints to where to look as per advice here - I have also said if this does not sort things can we have a talk about how complected and costly it may be to run traditional cables to the helm stations and go back to old school methods. I am sure NYA will learn to love me, as their winter workload decreases they can spend the spring sending me invoices instead lol

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Robin,  the build up of condensation is probably a result of closing the air vents in the engine room.  I know this was necessary to keep heat in over winter.  It is worth considering a dehumidifier in the engine room next time as long as you have a drain off point even if that is through a air vent.

Put one in now with a heater and it will remove a lot of excess condensate.

 

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4 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Yes it is freely able to move - take off the cable and move the engine throttle and she will rev instantly and very responsively.

I have emailed NYA a copy of the manual, link to ZF and given them some hints to where to look as per advice here - I have also said if this does not sort things can we have a talk about how complected and costly it may be to run traditional cables to the helm stations and go back to old school methods. I am sure NYA will learn to love me, as their winter workload decreases they can spend the spring sending me invoices instead lol

If the boat originally had a traditional cable system, it may be easier to covert back than you fear.

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Tradar Motor Yachts at build offered a host of engines and control methods - some preferred the old school separate throttle and gear controls, others went for a single lever control we are more familiar with in the UK - but many went for 'fly by wire' systems. Most Traders you see for sale of 2000+ year build have Kobelt controls which look like this:

kobelt-control-head-mighty-mariner-syste

They are said to be very reliable, but they still operate on the same principle as the ZF system I have. I believe Independence was fitted with one of these Kobelt systems originally.

With more modern engines and their electronic management systems, having 'digital helm controls' is so easy because you are simply taking control from one processor at the engine to a remote station. On my Yanmar's they are a mechanically governed - this means they will smoke more, drink a little more fuel, might not be as smooth as a like for like brand new 500HP Volvo Penta.

Therefore to have the current system removed and items put back is thousands of pounds, and it might work - until the next issue. So as I say I am thinking seriously that NYA should try the obvious if that does not solve it take it all out and go back to basics.

As to the condensation issues, I won't get a dehumidifier - my electric bills are already very high for the boat running the battery charger for the RIB and Domestics I have just left the air intake baffles open on each side to encourage a thru put of air now.

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35 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

It is like keeping a hammer in the car ready to give the starter motor a whack on an old Ford on a cold morning.

Robin, some of us are old enough to remember those days. Have you tried getting in touch with the OEM and asking them for advice. They may be interested to know the airing it is getting on here and possible reliability issues.

 

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20 minutes ago, 40something said:

This ZF system is out of date tech, not original to the boat and even if this fault can be fixed it sounds like (and I would feel the same) like you have lost confidence in it and it would be a constant niggle in your mind whenever using the boat. A new Morse system will still cost a fair bit but that's it then , job done, confidence restored, and from what you have said in the past it sounds like you much prefer the tactile feel of a mechanical system anyway

Exactly well said .

 

 

 

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for what its worth, any corrosion in the connectors will increase the resistance between the controller and the programmer, this will lead to a drop in the voltage reaching the programmer, so make the programmer think a lower speed is required that the setting on the throttle, you said somewhere above, that the position of the lever for the same throttle output had moved, this sounds like a resistance has crept in - ie corrosion in a connector. 

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11 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Tradar Motor Yachts at build offered a host of engines and control methods - some preferred the old school separate throttle and gear controls, others went for a single lever control we are more familiar with in the UK - but many went for 'fly by wire' systems. Most Traders you see for sale of 2000+ year build have Kobelt controls which look like this:

kobelt-control-head-mighty-mariner-syste

They are said to be very reliable, but they still operate on the same principle as the ZF system I have. I believe Independence was fitted with one of these Kobelt systems originally.

With more modern engines and their electronic management systems, having 'digital helm controls' is so easy because you are simply taking control from one processor at the engine to a remote station. On my Yanmar's they are a mechanically governed - this means they will smoke more, drink a little more fuel, might not be as smooth as a like for like brand new 500HP Volvo Penta.

Therefore to have the current system removed and items put back is thousands of pounds, and it might work - until the next issue. So as I say I am thinking seriously that NYA should try the obvious if that does not solve it take it all out and go back to basics.

As to the condensation issues, I won't get a dehumidifier - my electric bills are already very high for the boat running the battery charger for the RIB and Domestics I have just left the air intake baffles open on each side to encourage a thru put of air now.

I guess I was hoping you would find a box of old Morse bits somewhere which were the original system

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2 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Just had an email back from NYA "We have had great fun (not) dealing with these units before" - well, I should take some comfort that they have been there and got the t-shirt.

 

Well that's very useful that they have worked on them before, hopefully they will be totally honest with you about what was the end result of the previous 'fun' both in terms of the cost and more importantly the long term reliability.

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