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LondonRascal

Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care

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Hi Robin,

My 535 is the Signature version so slightly different from yours up top. From your video it would seem that the starboard rear area of the flybridge floor is able to move up and down, squeezing water out. This must mean that the screws fastening the teak have become loose and water is able to penetrate the deck moulding through the screw holes. It may be that some of the caulking has become detached which would allow water to penetrate between the teak panels. If that is the case, sealing around the edges may make the problem worse. Given the weather, I would suggest covering the whole of the flybridge to make it rainproof until warmer and drier weather sets in. The chances of either stopping the leaks or making a good repair in the short term would otherwise seem to be unlikely.

Without needing to take up the teak deck, the teak plugs over the screws could be removed. They may be glued in with epoxy and may require drilling out. However, they could be replaced with a slightly larger size if any damage to the surrounding teak is caused. Once the screws have been removed and the whole area dried out you could use slightly larger diameter screws and sikoflex to fix the teak and seal the holes. It would be a time-consuming job but not expensive.

Water drains from the flybridge through a series of holes around the edge of the floor. The water is then conducted in pipes through the side lockers and other structures to the void at each side of the flybridge that your mate was able to crawl into. This in turn drains to the side decks through a hole under the overhang at each side of the flybridge superstructure just forward of the stern deck. I wonder if one or other of those holes is blocked?

You're quite right about not wanting to disturb the ceiling panels in the saloon. They are very strongly glued and there would be a lot of damage if you tried. However, you might get a better idea of what is happening by removing some of the ceiling lights which are spring loaded into position. It's an aquired skill to get them out but gets easier! You can then get a light through into the void above and use a mirror to have a look around.

I see from an earlier posting that you were wondering about the blue paint which is a feature of most Traders. The paint is a two component Awlcraft Acrylic Urethane made by Awlgrip and the colour is Aristo Blue. It is designed to be applied by spray but I've had success with a roller. It takes three weeks to fully cure but can then be polished just like grp.

Apologies if you know all of this already, and best of luck!

Stuart

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Great info. Stuart 

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1 hour ago, Polly said:

Great info. Stuart 

Yrs  i agree, nice to see Robin has backup from a fellow owner. Wha diverse forum this is!!

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6 hours ago, diesel falcon said:

Leak test it with a bucket of water??

Typical just typical :default_norty:

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1 minute ago, quo vadis said:

Typical just typical :default_norty:

i had a mirage when coming over st olaves bridge to night...i saw propellers.....no surly not , yes i was wrong they were on the boat next door!!:default_biggrin:

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14 minutes ago, diesel falcon said:

i had a mirage when coming over st olaves bridge to night...i saw propellers.....no surly not , yes i was wrong they were on the boat next door!!:default_biggrin:

Get yourself to spec savers !!! :default_norty:

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Stuart - A fellow Trader owner.  I have a question unrelated to the above, but could you share what fresh water pump yours is fitted with - flow rate and psi? I know the original the boat came with was replaced before I bought the boat, which I then replaced with a like for like but I suffer with low pressure in the Galley and 'pulsing' when the pump runs.  I have some ideas how to sort this but be interested to know what someone else has to compare with my set up.

As for the leak situation I have not been able to tell if the bodge has worked or not since I have now been away from the boat and won't be back for another day or two - I have left various bits about to catch any water in the saloon.  I may have to get a tarp to cover the fly bridge but I am none too sure how to fix it in such a way no water runs back off and on to the deck (Teak where leak seems to be) but instead drains overboard elsewhere. I have had a chat to a friendly professional who believes the best way would be to have the Teak up it can then be certain to cure any leak, sanded and sealed and deep-laid and caulked.  Now someone who is very good with laying and caulking and used to work for Oyster Yachts happens to be employed to work on a boat moored next to Broad Ambition, so since I have met with him a few times now may see if he has time in the future to do the same on Independence as his work has been first class that I have seen.

Thank you too for the info about the paint - I can clearly see some lines in areas which suggests it was brush applied, but other than a few tiny areas the line generally is in very good condition.  However I will be painting the non-slip areas on the upper deck where the RIB is and also on the bow area, as these are just not looking very tidy.  I am not going to go with a white paint because this will stand out so much being 'pure' so will tone it down, perhaps a light grey with white to make a 50/50 mix.  I rather like the idea of it being clearly a non-slip area and not 'virgin gel coat'. 

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5 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

I have a question unrelated to the above, but could you share what fresh water pump yours is fitted with - flow rate and psi? I know the original the boat came with was replaced before I bought the boat, which I then replaced with a like for like but I suffer with low pressure in the Galley and 'pulsing' when the pump runs.  I have some ideas how to sort this but be interested to know what someone else has to compare with my set up.

Hi, Robin, If you have to replace/upgrade your pump, might I recommend a variable flow one. I have one of these on Sunbird, and it has transformed the whole water system. No cycling on and off, no pulsing, no accumulator tank needed, just a steady flow of water from a trickle to full force. I understand Indy has a much larger water system than on Sunbird and it's not a cheap option, but worth a look? Not sure what you have aboard, at present.

https://www.asap-supplies.com/42755-0392-jabsco-water-pressure-pump

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Hi Robin,

The water pump on my boat is a Jabsco Par-Max 4. Model 31620-0092. It's a 12V pump that cuts in at 20psi and cuts out at 40psi. It produces 16.3 litres per minute, consumes 6 amps and needs a 10amp circuit breaker. It sits next to a 1 litre accumulator tank and when I first bought the boat the output at the taps was not smooth. I then discovered a 7.9 litre accumulator tank high up in the opposite corner of the engine room. This was isolated from the circuit by a couple of valves, presumably to allow maintenance or replacement of the tank. When this tank was switched into the circuit and pumped up to the correct pressure the water supply was transformed. It appears that two previous owners had not enjoyed the full benefits of the system. The performance of the taps and showers is now similar to a domestic installation.

The pipe runs on a 535 are long and I suspect the system needs to operate at higher pressure than most leisure craft. However, the pulsing you are experiencing  would seem to suggest either that the accumulator tanks in the system have lost pressure or you need more accumulator capacity. Or there's one that, like mine, is hidden away and needs to be connected into the system.

Regarding the leak from the flybridge, your professional friend is no doubt correct that taking the whole teak deck up and re-sealing it would be the Rolls Royce solution. However, there would be a substantial labour cost. You may have already counted the number of teak plugs and screws that would have to be removed and replaced. I'm also not sure if the teak is glued as well as screwed to the grp. You obviously need to stop the water penetration before further damage is caused but the big issue is how to effect any repair if it's done in the outdoors in winter weather. A weatherproof cover for the flybridge in the short term is a possibility. I support mine down the centre line with telescopic alloy poles to allow the water to run off. They have a sort of plastic mushroom at the top to support the canvas. However, it's not perfect! Windboats are not far from you and may be prepared to advise and offer to quote for work on the teak.

I look forward to hearing how you get on.

All the best,

Stuart

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My pump is a higher flow (20L per min) but a lower pressure 30psi (if I remember correctly), I have an accumulator tank but this is only on the hot water side - something I find odd because this causes the hot side to obviously not require the pump to run immediately but this causes issues when having a shower - you get a steady flow of to water (no pump) but the gold water needs the pump - as the pressure in the hot water accumulator drops there is a point before the slack is taken up by the water pump running and you get a sudden 'cold' flow of water. Most uncomfy.

My idea has been in the Spring to remove (or isolate) the small accumulator on the hot water side, and put a larger accumulator in on the cold water side that will then serve both hot and cold flow. This is exactly what I have on Broad Ambition and performs perfectly.

As for the Teak I the entire area forward of the step 'up' to the bow needs working on the sides of the Teak deck to be re-caulked along with the surface to be sanded and sealed. This had been done on the sun deck , swim platform and side decks but not the bow and it is looking now a bit worse for it.  Not too bad by any stretch of the imagination but it was on the list of 'things' now of course the fly bridge is too. I will be updating the Forum on how things have panned out.

 

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Hi Robin. I think you will find the small tank on the hot is an expansion tank not an accumulator. I suspect you will find a non return valve in the cold feed to your calorifier cylinder. Don't remove it ( the expansion tank ) otherwise every time the system heats from cold the over pressure valve will dump water. I would try fitting a large accumulator tank just after your pump and things should work fine.

Hope this is some use.

Colin

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Hi Robin,

It would be surprising if your fresh water system was designed without an accumulator tank. Mine was high up in the engine room as far from the pump as it could be and where I least expected to find it. The original technical drawing of the plumbing system doesn't show it although it looks as if it was installed when the boat was built. It would be worth following the pipework around the boat to make quite sure there isn't one that has been closed off before making any alterations.

In the attached picture of the rear port side of my engine room the accumulator tank is the grey object high up at the back with two blue cold water pipes attached. Above it and to the left is the pressure guage. On the right is the pipework with the two valves that isolated the tank. They are both closed in the picture which was taken before I discovered the problem, which also explains why the pressure guage is showing zero pressure.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Stuart

Fresh Water Accumulator Tank Position.JPG

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Here's a simplified version of what you should have. The chances are you have an accumulator tank somewhere but may be isolated. Possibly because the diaphragm in it has perished and adds a funny taste to the water.

image.thumb.jpeg.030fdec0619e64bc78da6ccedb1fa5e5.jpeg

 

Colin:default_winko:

P.S. Whoops, just got home. Had forgotten to add image :default_icon_e_biggrin:

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As Islander/Colin has said that is the best way this is how mine is, except  my second accumulator/pressure vessel  is in the hot supply pipe. one other advantage is if you flush the toilet at night the pump doesn't come on as there is pressure in the system to provide water. I have a Bristan shower taps which is temp controlled and stops the shower from fluctuating between hot and cold. Baily & stone sell the telescopic poles with a plastic dome on top you can stick a velcro patch on top to keep in place and stop it from sliding off when supporting a cover. John 

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Okay to avoid too much typing, I have just been down to film the engine room and show you the current set up..

 

 

 

 

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Update:

I have found out why the fresh water pump as been cycling and pulsing so badly - and also why every few minutes it would trigger - I went hunting for a leak and my investigations led me to the space above the helm crawling in to inspect the washer jets - yep just like last year, the pipe has frozen and burst - despite me draining it all down just enough was left to break the small, original and brittle hose.

This has then meant water has been heading off where it perhaps should not and could actually be the cause of my leak in the deck head - anyway thank goodness Trader thought of that, and put a handy isolation valve on the manifold so I have isolated this and so have no more wash wipe for the time being - not the end of the world - but now have a sealed and presurised water system again.

PS Marina has frozen over again - crazy how this has happened so quickly from a high of 6c today it is now -2c outside.

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The pipes freezing is because they have used thin walled supply pipe,  in Medway they turn the water off 1st December until Easter for the same reason.

BGM use a thicker walled pipe and rarely have an issue.

It must be annoying, might be sort a visit to the camping shop for some spare containers and a small pump.

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So many issues with water lol - so my supply issue with Marina is only my tap, its the non-return valve gone - other taps are (were working) earlier today.

Just been out to salt the walkways and quay headings around my end - marina is frozen solid again.  Does not take much to do this.

On board the boat the majoity of the pipes are very thick walled hard stuff - would take a hell of a lot of pressure and ice build up to ever split them, but the weak point is the manifold for the washer jets for the windscreen. Effectively this is outside and the tiny diameter hose used from this to the three wipers freezes up.  That is my fault as I should have drained it, removed the hose, isolated the manifold and be done with it for the winter. I just drained it down - thing is I then come back to the boat and pressurise the water system, water then heads back to the manifold - and, while I sit in the warm interior the outside temperature drops well below freezing..Hose freezes and splits, a day or so later in the day time the temperature rises and there is my issue.

Live and learn..I do it in the most hard and roundabout way though.

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The ones I changed last year seem to have survived

Ref turning off the isolation valve - Erm, What can I say?

Griff

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Hi Robin,

Thanks for the tour of the engine room and good to hear you found a leak in the system. My Trader has Volvo engines and the layout of the engine room is very different.

I've been in several Trader engine rooms and they all had Jabsco water pumps. Yours seems to be rather quieter than a Jabsco and it may be a replacement. There could be tell tale screw holes where a previous pump was fitted.

I tried to focus on the strainer next to your fresh water pump. Is there a crystalline residue where the clear plastic top screws on to the base? It can be the case that, although the strainer doesn't leak water out, it can suck air in to the system if there's a hairline crack in the top or the screw thread isn't adequately sealed. This can cause intermittent cycling of the pump. Sometimes a crack is caused because the top has been screwed on too tightly. How do I know this? It happened to mine!

All the best,

Stuart

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That diagram that Islander kindly provided is exactly how I plumbed up 'B.A' from a blank canvass during her restoration except I didn't put in an expansion tank in the system, instead I rely on an auto safety valve on the calorifier with a short hose on it leading to the bilge.  Now and again I operate the valve by hand to make sure it is working and not seized up.

Robin, I have here at home a decent sized accumulator  tank going for free, just needs a new bladder in it.  You want it for Indy?  If so I'll bring it down with me this Thursday,  It's a Vetus unit and was the first one I fitted to 'B.A'   I would have replaced the bladder but was stuck for time with the ordering the replacement bladder and was able to pick up a larger accumulator from Nearest and Dearest over the counter with a huge discount that made it cheaper than a replacement bladder.  The Vetus unit has the capability of mounting the FW pump on top of the tank

Griff

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Robin, I have a 12v hand held pump that's designed to shift oil with small dia flexi tubes that can remove oil from the gearboxes and the like.  Remind me to bring it with me on Thursday too - You can then remove as much oil as you want from the gearboxes, run them up to temp and check the levels

Griff

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