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Independence - Updates | Maintenance & Care


LondonRascal

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Robin,

I think I agree with Siddy on this but I cannot see a connector in the video.

My understanding is that you have feeder pipes from port and starboard to the centre tank and that there is an isolator valve at each end of each pipe.  I also get the impression that the centre tank is lower than the other two.  I would expect there to be a fuel feed from that centre tank, otherwise there will always be a quantity of fuel in it that could never be used.  In the video section where you are showing the depth of that tank there is a vertical pipe with a tap that is open.  I’m guessing that that pipe is feeding fuel from this tank to something.

I am confused as to why you have been told to isolate this tank.  There is no way that fuel could siphon from a lower-level to a higher level, so a list cannot develop “by itself”.  When the boat is rolling due to wave action then cross-flow would occur, but this will be limited by the pipe size and would not be significant enough to be noticeable before the boat rolls the other way.

I suggest an experiment.  If you have fuel level “sight tubes”, or some way of actually seeing the physical level of the fuel without relying on a remote display gauge.

1.       Close the centre tank valves (as they are now).

2.       Check the actual fuel level(s).  One side would do, but both port and starboard would be better.  Possibly mark the level with a felt-tip pen or a strip of sticky tape.

3.       Induce a list!  Either get lots of people to sit on one side or use the crane to displace the rib out to one side.

4.       Check the actual fuel level(s) again.  This might be slightly different as a result of the list.

5.       Wait!

6.       No levels should change, showing that the valves are closed (or the pipe blocked).

7.       Open the four centre tank feed valves.

8.       Wait!

9.       Check to see if the fuel on the “low” side is going up and the “high” side down.

10.   If it does then the valves work. But there may be a restriction (blockage) somewhere. If it does not then either the valves do not open or the blockage is total.

11.   Remove the list!

12.   The levels (if changed) should return to the marked positions.

If there is a restriction, but not a total blockage in the pipe(s) then it is likely that the rate of fuel flow during “polishing” was much greater than the cross-flow could equalise.  Unfortunately, the same would be true during refuelling.  If there is some flow, then you can repeat the experiment, closing just one main valve at a time and that would tell you that those valves are working.

The "worst case" occurs if no fuel flows, because then you know nothing more about the valves.

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5 hours ago, Brundall1037 said:

On your radio if it is the same as mine you can hook your mobile up through the Bluetooth and answer calls on the radio. Good for if you want to keep your phone dry.

 

Well not sure about that, get confused between using the VHF for urm radio traffic and ordering a Pizza. I'll stick to waterproof smartphones.

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I am confused as to why you have been told to isolate this tank.  There is no way that fuel could siphon from a lower-level to a higher level, so a list cannot develop “by itself”. 

Indeed! This is because I think I have been told some things that are a little bit far from the truth - however over on YBW a guy I have struck up a good realtionship with in private messages came up with this clever way to see if the balance pipes are blocked:

"Lets say you had all of the four valves closed and you had both Yanmar's up and running, for instance when you had done your mini Jaunary trip and were tied up and settled at MBBH. The 5 Degree cold diesel in the tanks will have been warmed appreciably by the constant flow of return fuel back into the outer tanks.

Starting on one side, from shut, could you perhaps open the valves sequentially one at a time and with your infra-red thermometer follow the fuel temperatures move or not move along the balance piped?

As you opened each valve. So lets say Port tank fuel was now warmed up to say 20C, and the fuel in balance pipe was unheated and still at 5C. Then open the valve and monitor, does the warm fuel follow to the other side of the valve or does it just stay cold?

If you established for instance by doing the two outside ones first, that the valves on both main tanks were working well So after running, it was hot on the tank side and cold on the other side of the valves with them still shut, then warm when opened up. If the fault was thereafter traced to be at one of the two on the centre only that was not opening. You could then shut off the two mains and you would only be looking at a fairly modest draining of the centre tank only scenario, which would presumably save you tons of cash?

Guess a risk is nasty bad fuel in that centre one contaminating the main tanks, but if you were already there and it was all going to come out thereafter anyway. After 5 minutes of basic testing, you might have a fair idea if the valves were good or bad and potentially what problem you were looking at."

So you can see this is causing a bunch of people to really get their mind into things - personally speaking, since I have now bought and had dispatched the hose pipe, fuel transfer pump and associated other items I am just going to go along the 'take as much fuel out as possible' route and inspect. You will see in the next video there is corrosion on the centre tank outlet (port) and valve this is I am sure because of some electrical wires that come very close to this area and have DC current that is used for the electronic throttle controls - any idea then how you can shield such cables so the pixies don't get out and introduce Cathodic, or Galvanic corrosion to my prescious metals?

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The concluding part of 'Update 3' is below, where I show how an iPad can be an aid to navigation, win the war on the local Seagulls and if you make towards the end you we go exploring in the engine room and I try to shed some more light on the fuel pipes, centre tank and valves. Riveting stuff!

 

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looking at your fuel manifold, can you not feed the generator from an alternative source, if the feed from the centre tank is shut off, it may already be feeding from one of the other tanks, I imagine the manifold has 3 inputs and several outputs, and by juggling the valves you feed from different sources, and out to different destinations.

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Robin, looking at page 25 of the user manual,at the fuel system diagram there seems to be only one valve for the balance pipe into the tank, teed into the balance pipe - the other feeds to the manifold, your generator looks to feed and return to the same tank as one engine, of course thats just what the manual says.

if you find its different, send me a sketch of how it is and I will do you a new drawing, its just odd that the feed out and return in your video dont appear to have valves - while all the drawings show valves.

fuel system.JPG

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Robin, looking at page 25 of the user manual,at the fuel system diagram there seems to be only one valve for the balance pipe into the tank, teed into the balance pipe - the other feeds to the manifold, your generator looks to feed and return to the same tank as one engine, of course thats just what the manual says.

if you find its different, send me a sketch of how it is and I will do you a new drawing, its just odd that the feed out and return in your video dont appear to have valves - while all the drawings show valves.

The Generator can be fed from the the Port tank - that is closed off currently in a sort of 'T' connector (next to port tank balance valve) so it therefore is fed elsewhere - the diagram 'at build' is not what you now see 'on the ground' sadly.  I am not sure if this was changed during the build or since - but the placement of items does not match up with the plan as above. However, note the valves for the balance pipe are shown as being in the 'on' position in the fuel system plan.

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Having been in the marine industry for the last 50 odd years, it sounds very much  like you have bought a large drain on your finances.

Well yes and no - it is about how you want to do things really. You've got the bare essentials - it is a boat that floats, has no leaks in the hull therefore if everything else works a lot of people would be happy with that state of affairs.

Then you branch off of that into correcting issues - clearly the last owner who owned her for 12 years seems to have spent his money on more cosmetic things like a Crane and a Williams Rib and a Satellite TV and phone system to name a few, however he also spent on the oily parts too.

I went into this eyes wide open, and frankly think I have got a bargain - compared to spending another  £180,000 on a Fariline Squadron 58 which had been on the table at one point - who is to say that would not have had issues here and there? Also saving £32,500 on the purchase price made this Trader the cheapest for year by miles and has given me lots of room financially.

As you can imagine just having the boat out the water and anti-fouled for a boat of this size and weight is not a cheap thing, let alone basic things like needing 9 anodes for each engine and a new impeller costing about £90.00 - I am looking at about £1,000 per engine when you factor in all the parts, the oil and coolant for service - especially 'down there' where they charge top dollar.

My overall plan is to bring her from what many consider to be a fine example of this model, to being the best. The engine room is a mess (for me) despite people commenting on how clean and tidy it is it can be cleaned and brought up more so the current issues do not bother me what does is time and that ticks on all the time but once she is up in Norfolk and time is no longer so pressing (and that is handy as Norfolk operates on a different time zone to other parts of the Country) I can get stuck in to cosmetic updates and electronic goodness. This is really the very tip of the iceberg.

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The V40’s not been in production long, although it’s mainly a re styled V39!  I spotted the China Fleet pub in the background, food was never very good but nice spot for a beer or 2 watching the marina etc.

I prefer the Barbican 'older area' for the pubs and food but have wandered over to the China House - its on the way to the Chandlers. However the Princess just is not my cup of tea, to much white gel coat everywhere and that entire space even with an enclosure is really 'outside' so on a chilly day it just not a space you would want to use so you'd be down below all the time - still people buy them,

 

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This might be a stupid question but why does one need s boat so big ? After all many people live afloat very comfortably on smaller vessels , things such as a hardy 42 is a very comfortable boat big enough for extended sea travel and yet very much easier to live with regarding lifting , running costs , Mooring's and  simplicity of onboard systems to name but a few things , to be absolutely honest it is all down to the final overall cost of purchase and repairs and upgrades as to how much of a bargain any boat , house , car or what ever actually is.

I'm not anti "  Independence "at all but I fail to see how something that hasn't got to its final coatings if indeed there is such a thing can just yet be considered a bargain .

Obviously my thoughts only but that for what its worth is my humble opinion .

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24 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

However, note the valves for the balance pipe are shown as being in the 'on' position in the fuel system plan.

I read those valves as being in the off position (handles at right angles to the line of the pipe).

As I said above, once you get a grip on how the fuel system is set up (I assume those handles under the seat are also connected to the valves in some way) do a sketch and I will draw it up nicely in CAD for you - so you have a permanent record of how it is now.

this can then be stuck up in the engine room in case of an emergency to make it plain for anyone who might need in future.

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2 hours ago, grendel said:

Robin, looking at page 25 of the user manual,at the fuel system diagram there seems to be only one valve for the balance pipe into the tank, teed into the balance pipe - the other feeds to the manifold, your generator looks to feed and return to the same tank as one engine, of course thats just what the manual says.

if you find its different, send me a sketch of how it is and I will do you a new drawing, its just odd that the feed out and return in your video dont appear to have valves - while all the drawings show valves.

fuel system.JPG

The diagram makes sense except for the centre tank and I don't know what he capacity is, if as I believe I read the boat has tendancy to roll, did the designer add the centre tank as both ballast and say a 20% fuel reserve?

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4 hours ago, Labrador said:

Having been in the marine industry for the last 50 odd years, it sounds very much  like you have bought a large drain on your finances.

I think that most people who buy a boat already know that. The reward is the joy of ownership, tinkering with it, learning about it , sailing on it, entertaining on it and discussing it with other like  minded boat owners.

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Ricardo, you've raised here what has been asked elsewhere - fair point. So the best answer I can give you is I have always wanted a 'proper sea boat' - now even that raises a number of questions such as what is the difference between a sea boat and a 'proper' one but to me it comes with size and much like food, give me a large plate with a burger a large portion of chips and I will see more value in that than a fine cut of steak with some perfectly buttered baby potatoes and  fine green beans.

So you see my initial research began with 'how big of a boat can I go' - it has to have a number of berths too as while 90% of the time I might be on it myself, those other times when you have guests and want to go places it is nice to have flexible accommodation. I soon found out when you move away from ex-hire craft berths on boats soon become harder to find and why I very much was drawn to the 1991 Fairline 50 to begin. It had a twin cabin, bunk beds, a double master and then a tiny twin cabin under the deck at the aft. 8 people for a boat of this type is really good, but it was 26 years old and while very well kept, was stepping back to the 90's the moment you saw inside. For me, that would need to go - but I also liked that idea to re-structure the interior.

However I then wondered about newer Fairline's, and the Squadron 55 appealed - you see where this is going, large, newer, faster, more expensive. I did not stop there and before long was eyeing up a 2004 Squadron 58! The Traders had also 'caught my eye' but always seemed a bit too 'old school' for me, until one evening in the summer I was in St. Katherine's Dock in London and low and behold right there before me was a Squadron 58 and Shiela and I looked and I talked about it and my love and wish to have one just went. It was too brash, and what on earth would I do with twin 750HP engines and how would this enormous boat at close on 60ft ever work if I was to have her berthed on the Broads.

No, I needed to re-evaluate go back to the drawing board - and so with that I took another look at the Traders.

I read up about them and anytime anyone would consider buying one (this on the YBW Forum) people would remind them of a certain chaps dealings when he commissioned one to be built and it all went terribly wrong, others spoke of their terrible roll and the fact that they were not a patch on a Flemming and neither a fast boat or a long distance passage maker - more show than real trawler yacht. When I began then to post and talk of these and boats generally, the welcome was frosty to say the least, but I liked that - it inspired me and drove me more to cut my own furrow and do things on my terms.

And so I got serious, making enquiries and spending hours online planning, reading, viewing over and over but at no point did I stop to think 'is this too big' or 'what will I do with it' - no, because that did not and still does not mean much to me. You see if I had a smaller boat, could I have a three seater settee on it, or  a full electric galley with dishwasher? Could I have a crane and keep the rib off the swim platform up top? Moreover could I have any of these things in a boat for that sort of money...No I could not.  But conversely do I need that crane and Rib and so on? no I do not - but it is nice to have, but that is not in a show off manner I just like the look of it all - it adds to the 'go anywhere' feel and look to the boat.

So it had to be a Trader and it had to be a Sunliner for the Signature could not hold the same weight up top, it also had to be no older than a 2000 year model because of a raft of improvements and changes made since 2000 to models.

And a long story short, I found this one. It already came with a lot of the things I was wanting - so much of this has been about removing as much compromise as one can from what a boat means. To me it is about a space to spend time, and this boat is fabulous. It feels cosy, the real wood interior might be a bit too traditional for some, but it is or me timeless and gives it a real sense of being little ship. But it is the other things like an enormous bed in a large cabin with so much room to move, so much headroom, it makes it again feel less like a boat more home like almost. And why I am spending more time on sorting that out internally than cosmetically outside, so when guests come on board they are comfortable and looked after.

So a big reason  why it had to be so big and why the name I chose,  and why the list of items I plan to do on her all comes down to the fact I have wanted to do this all my life, and this is the first time I have been 'let free' and got something I control completely that I chose originally, negotiated on, bought and will make what I will of it without anyone saying anything to me or having any say in it whatsoever. Never before have I done anything like this - there has always been others help, guidance, control, even down to asking someone what they think about this or that. This time I did it alone and also why words like: "Why do you want to do that Robin?" or "You see what you want to do is..." are words to be left unspoken on board. 

Having that drive and mindset and then sharing it as you head down the path is unusual. It is not usual that a guy my age would own a boat like a Trader, that anyone would buy any boat of such value and type in the manner in which I did - no survey, no sea trial and the first time I heard the engines fire into life was after I had completed on the purchase. It is risky, but it is so far paying off - so when it comes to value well I see value in it others may not, but a lot of this will be about changing perceptions.  It just something quite interesting that anyone I talk to I must first explain it is just me, yes I did just buy this boat for me, and yes I do want this doing like that - from the chap who came down to do the fuel tanks to the boatyard doing the works in January - I don't think they've met a 'Rascal' before so I enjoy bringing my enthusiasm and energy to things.

 

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Peter sorry yeah, the thing is the drawing is so about face with the manifold shown as at a different location, the centre tank is not really even 'central' as in down the centre line of the boat, it is 90 US Gallon (I make that about 340 litres) some other Traders have had a far larger tank for extended cruising range, 340 litres won't get you many more miles.

To be honest, the issue I have is the fact the Yanmar engines are far more light weight than the CATs on other boats, and then I had this bloody big Crane and its sold support beam on the port side, and a 300kg+ Rib 'sort of' on the starboard side, but more central than anything - so that combined is a lot of weight up top - the moment you go using water, and fuel you reduce the wight you have down low and she then will act like a pendulum rolling from one side to the other, Traders are known known for this, but in my boat it will be far more extreme.

Of course the Rib and Crane were all added after build - the small centre tank I am sure is only there simply to even out things since it has the lighter engines, but we will find out how she is once underway . Other owners I have read stories form and spoken to avoid beam seas where possible  because they or their wives do not like having to hold on tight and have plan their movements just to go to the galley when underway. So long as Independence bobs back up from a roll to port I am happy!

 

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I do wonder that when buying this boat, your heart has over ruled your head and your posts simply consist of spending out money and you haven't even left port yet! We all know the problems of buying 2nd hand, and I'm sure the boat scenario is far worse than a car, but you seem to have a bottomless pit of cash to supplement this.

I do like your updates, and hope that you do venture out to sea to fulfil your dreams on your own boat.

All the best Robin.

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37 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

Ricardo, you've raised here what has been asked elsewhere - fair point. So the best answer I can give you is I have always wanted a 'proper sea boat' - now even that raises a number of questions such as what is the difference between a sea boat and a 'proper' one but to me it comes with size and much like food, give me a large plate with a burger a large portion of chips and I will see more value in that than a fine cut of steak with some perfectly buttered baby potatoes and  fine green beans.

So you see my initial research began with 'how big of a boat can I go' - it has to have a number of berths too as while 90% of the time I might be on it myself, those other times when you have guests and want to go places it is nice to have flexible accommodation. I soon found out when you move away from ex-hire craft berths on boats soon become harder to find and why I very much was drawn to the 1991 Fairline 50 to begin. It had a twin cabin, bunk beds, a double master and then a tiny twin cabin under the deck at the aft. 8 people for a boat of this type is really good, but it was 26 years old and while very well kept, was stepping back to the 90's the moment you saw inside. For me, that would need to go - but I also liked that idea to re-structure the interior.

However I then wondered about newer Fairline's, and the Squadron 55 appealed - you see where this is going, large, newer, faster, more expensive. I did not stop there and before long was eyeing up a 2004 Squadron 58! The Traders had also 'caught my eye' but always seemed a bit too 'old school' for me, until one evening in the summer I was in St. Katherine's Dock in London and low and behold right there before me was a Squadron 58 and Shiela and I looked and I talked about it and my love and wish to have one just went. It was too brash, and what on earth would I do with twin 750HP engines and how would this enormous boat at close on 60ft ever work if I was to have her berthed on the Broads.

No, I needed to re-evaluate go back to the drawing board - and so with that I took another look at the Traders.

I read up about them and anytime anyone would consider buying one (this on the YBW Forum) people would remind them of a certain chaps dealings when he commissioned one to be built and it all went terribly wrong, others spoke of their terrible roll and the fact that they were not a patch on a Flemming and neither a fast boat or a long distance passage maker - more show than real trawler yacht. When I began then to post and talk of these and boats generally, the welcome was frosty to say the least, but I liked that - it inspired me and drove me more to cut my own furrow and do things on my terms.

And so I got serious, making enquiries and spending hours online planning, reading, viewing over and over but at no point did I stop to think 'is this too big' or 'what will I do with it' - no, because that did not and still does not mean much to me. You see if I had a smaller boat, could I have a three seater settee on it, or  a full electric galley with dishwasher? Could I have a crane and keep the rib off the swim platform up top? Moreover could I have any of these things in a boat for that sort of money...No I could not.  But conversely do I need that crane and Rib and so on? no I do not - but it is nice to have, but that is not in a show off manner I just like the look of it all - it adds to the 'go anywhere' feel and look to the boat.

So it had to be a Trader and it had to be a Sunliner for the Signature could not hold the same weight up top, it also had to be no older than a 2000 year model because of a raft of improvements and changes made since 2000 to models.

And a long story short, I found this one. It already came with a lot of the things I was wanting - so much of this has been about removing as much compromise as one can from what a boat means. To me it is about a space to spend time, and this boat is fabulous. It feels cosy, the real wood interior might be a bit too traditional for some, but it is or me timeless and gives it a real sense of being little ship. But it is the other things like an enormous bed in a large cabin with so much room to move, so much headroom, it makes it again feel less like a boat more home like almost. And why I am spending more time on sorting that out internally than cosmetically outside, so when guests come on board they are comfortable and looked after.

So a big reason  why it had to be so big and why the name I chose,  and why the list of items I plan to do on her all comes down to the fact I have wanted to do this all my life, and this is the first time I have been 'let free' and got something I control completely that I chose originally, negotiated on, bought and will make what I will of it without anyone saying anything to me or having any say in it whatsoever. Never before have I done anything like this - there has always been others help, guidance, control, even down to asking someone what they think about this or that. This time I did it alone and also why words like: "Why do you want to do that Robin?" or "You see what you want to do is..." are words to be left unspoken on board. 

Having that drive and mindset and then sharing it as you head down the path is unusual. It is not usual that a guy my age would own a boat like a Trader, that anyone would buy any boat of such value and type in the manner in which I did - no survey, no sea trial and the first time I heard the engines fire into life was after I had completed on the purchase. It is risky, but it is so far paying off - so when it comes to value well I see value in it others may not, but a lot of this will be about changing perceptions.  It just something quite interesting that anyone I talk to I must first explain it is just me, yes I did just buy this boat for me, and yes I do want this doing like that - from the chap who came down to do the fuel tanks to the boatyard doing the works in January - I don't think they've met a 'Rascal' before so I enjoy bringing my enthusiasm and energy to things.

 

That's fine , slight correction though the boat I used as an example the hardy 42  is totally gas free , full electric galley, dishwasher , fridge freezer, microwave, and can accept a washer / dryer , and space for at least 6 in the saloon without being cramped .

Its all very well doing things all on your own iv done it but I've also learned not to discount good advice from those who are knowledgeable on certain subjects be it boats , houses or whatever .

That said I wish you luck your on a massive learning curve here .

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Robin, myself and my partner are new boat owners. All I knew about boating was my  childhood memories of Broads holidays as a kid.  We have lost quite a few people in the last few years and this triggered us to stop saying 'when we retire we are going to buy a boat'  This autumn we decided we must stop thinking about the future all the time and live for the day a bit more.   All the stresses of everyday life go the minute we get to the marina. We are on a huge learning curve but its the best thing weve done.  We always have something to look forward to.

Its so fascinating seeng your journey on a much much bigger scale than ours! 

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When people are considering buying a boat the advise is usually given,  buy bigger than you think you need or you will end up changing it after a year.

Glad to see you have listened Robin :default_winko:

Boat age and size are only limited by budget,  glad you are following your dream and letting us all tag along.

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Please don't anyone I hope see me as being rude in sharing this, but a lot of the time I will use this Forum, my videos and the like as a kind of 'notice board' if that makes sense. Sometimes, I will ask for help, or double check something by 'putting it out there' but other times I will simple share what has happened, and what is to happen down the line and I don't want it to be seen when people ask about that, question the direction I am going in or so on to appear foolish or arrogant in then not taking on board others opinions and experiences.

I have had messages from people asking why did I buy such a boat, a boat many people who have spent years traveling to various places by sea would love to own and now venture further with, would I then be intending to keep it inland on a river system?  I also have had those question my logic in wanting to spend vast sums of money on things like updating the navigation electronics only to use them a handful of times - but the I guess the fact is, most people follow a reasoning and I am not quite following the same.

Let us just take this fuel system - the tanks, balancing etc - I don't claim to understand what is going on, but I know someone will. I contact the boatyard I want their guys to do the dirty work so to speak and I am fine paying for that, but to help I will take away the hard part of them dealing with third party tanker firms and sorting out stuff they usually do not encounter out so I did. But see reasoning would have me do nothing until the issue had been identified causing the problem, and then react to that in finding or funding a solution. In short, take the boat to the  boatyard have boatyard look at it, the boatyard then tell me what is wrong, how much it might cost to put right and do I want to go ahead. Simple.

My way of dealing with it is speed and efficiency and to hell with cost. Flippant sounding maybe, but  it gets things done.  I sort the storage tank hire out, then buy a fuel  transfer pump, a nozzle for it along with the  connectors and clamps, and 10 metres of re-enforced hose to make it all work. Once that is sorted I then liaised with boatyard ad update them and agree I will be in touch come 3rd January.  I get a worry free Christmas and can plan the next stages such as removing the 'entertainment centre' and feasibility of hanging a 40" TV from the deck head -it will all make sense down the road..

I have a Teak blind, I went to raise it and it broke - I posted this on my own Facebook page - I was all set to get a new custom blind manufactured and get the boatyard (who happen to be distributors and fitters) to have it done - but several people said 'woah hold on' it could be fixed with a part from another blind don't do anything yet. I have held fire, but I am itching to get it sorted as I don't like the aesthetic of a blind stick half up and half down lol.

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