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LondonRascal

Free Heat..?

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I am sure someone out there knows the answer to this, for I have an idea that I believe will work but I'd like some inout with regard to obtaining 'free heating' from the engine's coolant system when you are underway.

I've heard of this being done in but not sure exactly how one would go about it, so this is my idea: You see on Independence she has no diesel heating system, the only way to obtain heat is from electric heating either when you are alongside and connected to shore power or if one runs the Generator to get electric to do the same, or run the boats air-condition system in reverse cycle mode to generate some heat that way. This is very inefficient way especially when you are underway to get warm.

I have noticed that the Port engine has two hot water hoses that lead off to the Calorifier - I presume one is a feed the other a return. Both have valves you can close to isolate the system. Above the Port engine is the Saloon and helm area so I thought if one took a 'T' off the hot water feed and plumbed this into a matrix heater box then out the matrix and back on the way to the Calorifier that then with 12v feed to power the blower motor we would have 'free heat' when underway in the saloon.

Is that all that is needed to be done, or should there something I am missing? I guess I could even take the feed off the Starboard engine which would mean that there would be no heat loss to our domestic water but since the plumbing is in situ on the Port engine I thought this may be an easier option.

This is an example Matrix:

XEROS.jpg

 

 

 

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No problem at all with doing that Robin, I went into quite some detail about doing exactly that on Rosalind, the only thing that stopped me in the end was once I had costed all the parts needed plus the work for me to do,it worked out cheaper and easier for me to install a diesel heater :default_blush:

But I think someone on here has done it, just can't remember who!

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I have read of people doing this, using secondhand heaters out of cars,  I believe at one time the old mini heater was a favourite  as it's easy to get out of the car.

The only problem I know of is the heater outlet from an engine normally bypasses the thermostat, therefore, if you put too much cooling (ie radiators) in that line it will take a very long time for the engine to reach operational temperature.

I certain was intending to  this, until I changed to Diesel Electric unfortunately all the water plumbing is inside the "Silent pack" casing Ie the raw warer goes in and it comes out already in the exhaust. i am loath to interfere with the casing and there is not a lot of room inside the box...

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I think Lord Paul did something like that on Mistral for not much dosh - matrix and blower from a scrappie ISTR. 

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Yep that system works , but take the feed to the matrix after the hot tank otherwise it robs it of heat , other than that iv used that exact system for over 7 yrs and no problem at all , that said only use one matrix as 2 inline doesn't work the second one is always running too cold to make any heat .

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Yes, got a Volvo heater matrix on Sunbird, complete with 3-speed fan. Works a treat!

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Thank you for the replies - looks like this will be doable then - just need to see where it could be mounted and how to run the hoses - I have a good idea of the location since already there is some that head down to the engine room from the Air Con system.

The only thing is this is all sealed up with goop to maintain the engine room being a sealed area from the saloon above in the event of a fire and smoke so any hole would likewise need to be sealed with suitable goop.

Edit: Hmm now I have been thinking some more though - this is going to surly need a circulation pump and be run for best performance in parallel with the Calorifier  and not in series? Also with the added volume of coolant in the system would an additional head tank be needed.

Simple idea turning less simple.

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Robin with the size of the sallon/helm I should think you would need something slightly larger than a car heater system? i would personally go for something from say a Mercedes Sprinter or Ford Transit high top to give you the extra volume. I believe the minibus versions are even more powerful.

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Well I will be steering clear of car systems and sticking to the above example, which are custom built 'all in one' units that have the blower fan, matrix and casing their cost is dependent on size which effects the Kw heat output rating, but I'd suspect to pay about £250 for one. I've hired boats with these in and very effective they are too.

In the longer term I will have a Diesel fired boiler system from one of the Forum's sponsor's  'JPC Direct'. Such a unit will heat coolant and this will run through the boat to these type of matrix heaters in each cabin - this being far easier to run small diameter water pipes than large diameter air ducting. Also air looses heat far faster rate than water and it might even be possible to use the existing air-con matrix system and plumbing, but simply isolate this with valves that in winter the coolant is heated from the boiler and in summer the boiler is isolated and the compressors cool the coolant to cool the boat.

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33 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

 

The only thing is this is all sealed up with goop to maintain the engine room being a sealed area from the saloon above in the event of a fire and smoke so any hole would likewise need to be sealed with suitable goop.

 

Simple idea turning less simple.

Fire rated sealant required..

https://www.screwfix.com/p/no-nonsense-intumescent-sealant-white-310ml/5689r?_requestid=295534

Circulation pump not needed for single matrix  radiator in SERIES with the calorifier first.

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you might also want to paint any exposed piping with intumescent paint, we use a similar product where we have to have short lengths of standard cable running through interior areas, although we also mostly use a cable that has low smoke and no halogen components when it burns internally.

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What sort of aircon system is it? A lot of them are reverse cycle, so can heat to an extent as well as cool.

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On a much simpler basis, my Norman 23 had a radiator plumbed into the heat exchanger circuit. Got very warm although its only free heat really when on the move! You happen to be at the helm then and not getting toasty next to said radiator. Was good for "passengers"!

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What sort of aircon system is it? A lot of them are reverse cycle, so can heat to an extent as well as cool.

It is a massive HFL system - takes over 20Amps (AC) to run so no good to use with most 16Amp shore supplies even.

It does run in reverse cycle but it gets what I would refer to as being 'warm' not very good for all the power it consumes. It better work better in summer at cooling or the whole lot will be removed as it takes up masses of space with two large compressors and air handling units throughout the boat.

This is why I seek to have a Diesel fired heating system at a later stage, and also why to run a large Generator to make enough power to runt the system to get some luke warm air out does not make much sense on our passage - if we can get some free heating to the Saloon all the better.

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Page 81 here - http://www.volvopenta.com/content/dam/volvo/volvo-penta/master/marine-leisure-engines/for-owners/parts/Accessories/Accessories Catalog.pdf

Or here - https://www.volvopentashop.com/EPC/en-GB/Details/AccessoriesCatalog/5438?path=1532%2F4225%2F5437%2F5438

Other manufacturers maybe available !  :-)   Paul is the Parts guy at Marine Engineering Looe at QAB marina who could give a quote.  Retail is £371 for the 10kw versions and they are all in central stock, not checked the hoses, vents etc. though.

 

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Robin,  have a look at domestic plinth heaters,  used in kitchens.  They plumb into the 15mm copper radiator circuit and plug into 240v for the fan.  They also blow cold air.

2017-11-23 17.07.33.jpg

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46 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Robin,  have a look at domestic plinth heaters,  used in kitchens.  They plumb into the 15mm copper radiator circuit and plug into 240v for the fan.  They also blow cold air.

2017-11-23 17.07.33.jpg

Exactly and they only req a small inverter to run effortless from 12 Volt's , , the thing is a matrix is a matrix the fact that it has marine stamped on it makes no difference other than price , mini bus rear heater's are very powerful I know I use one out of a LGV , if the sealed engine room is a problem the duct the intake from elsewhere outside the engine room , the trick is to not have the matrix above the header tank as it can cause airlocks , that way you can make the water pipework as short as possible and gain maximum efficiency , then run ducts probably 2 will be enough to 2 areas   doing this make the spread of heat far better than a single matrix outlet , its worth keeping in more mind that you don't want stone cold water returning to the engine as could very possibly cause problem's in over cooling , like anything else in the world you don't get anything for nothing , but there's no halm in harnessing a little wasted heat including power from the sun , yes I know that some will say freeloading , me I prefer to call it intelligent :default_biggrin:.

Ps mind the typos I'm in a rubbish internet area again :default_beerchug:

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With all this talk of heating a boat, I assume your salty boat is the same as B.A on the Broads at Christmas. Once the heating goes off, heat retention is non existent and it ends up being "Bloody Cold".

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17 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

This link may be of use:

http://www.mikuniheating.com/Results.cfm?category=23&secondary=15

These guys sell the correct equipment to do a proper job. 

And there are plenty of people on here who have achieved exactly the same result and doing a proper job for considerable less out lay   as iv said a matrix is a matrix and I find the reference to doing a proper job a slightly offensive remark given that quite a few have done this and achieved the desired result by using their brains rather than their wallets , its entirely up to the individual as to which road he /she goes down but the resulting installation is exactly the same as far as gaining heat and that if I'm not mistaken was the question .

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the way I see it, I am sure I could knock up a matrix and fan unit out of car parts, for next to nothing, but then again it would probably not be as cosmetic as a bought unit, so its all down to whether you can afford the aesthetics, or whether you want to do things on the cheap (or just want the challenge). for some who dont consider themselves handy the only route is to spend the money. for these people I feel sorry, as I am sure if they tried they could achieve all sorts if they just put their mind to it and had a go.

Me I tackle things head on and give it a go - just look at the model of Broad Ambition, an ambitious project for the first (and second) proper radio controlled ship I have ever made. if you are prepared to screw up a few times learning, there is nothing you cant achieve.

for heat you could probably even just pipe the hot water through a standard bathroom radiator or heated towel rail, or just lay a hose under the flooring to get underfloor heating, lots of ways to achieve the same result. a length of copper pipe and some U connectors soldered up would also make a simple radiator.

place the same  copper pipe in a glass topped box with the pipe and box inside painted black, and leave it in the sun - pump water through and you get free hot (warm) water

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14 minutes ago, grendel said:

the way I see it, I am sure I could knock up a matrix and fan unit out of car parts, for next to nothing, but then again it would probably not be as cosmetic as a bought unit, so its all down to whether you can afford the aesthetics, or whether you want to do things on the cheap (or just want the challenge). for some who dont consider themselves handy the only route is to spend the money. for these people I feel sorry, as I am sure if they tried they could achieve all sorts if they just put their mind to it and had a go.

Me I tackle things head on and give it a go - just look at the model of Broad Ambition, an ambitious project for the first (and second) proper radio controlled ship I have ever made. if you are prepared to screw up a few times learning, there is nothing you cant achieve.

for heat you could probably even just pipe the hot water through a standard bathroom radiator or heated towel rail, or just lay a hose under the flooring to get underfloor heating, lots of ways to achieve the same result. a length of copper pipe and some U connectors soldered up would also make a simple radiator.

place the same  copper pipe in a glass topped box with the pipe and box inside painted black, and leave it in the sun - pump water through and you get free hot (warm) water

your quite right , the thing is I'm talking about a matrix that's in the engine room out of sight , fed by a clod air duct and exiting into 2/3 ducts , the ends of these ducts can be exactly the same eyeball vents found on diesel heating system's hence no problem with aesthetics at all , my objection was the implication rightly or wrongly that doing it In another way than a ore manufactured component was not doing a proper job .

Incidentally glad you touched on underfloor heating , my narrow boat had a diesel wet heating circuit and in the bathrooms because I had to go across the boat  with the heating pipes I deliberately left them just under the flooring and protected by an alloy plate , obviously this heats up via the hot pipe and created a warm area area for the feet when stepping out of the bath ( yep bath ! ) .

Totally right about the solar hot water panel they ready do work but probably not so great in England .

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For a 20 to 30k boat I would be inclined to agree and do it cheaply but for the cost of replacing just one of Robins massive engines when it overheats due to a silly failure of some type from cobbling together something thats meant to be fitted to a car, thats how I would be thinking if it were me!

To be fair I didnt think the Mikuni matrix's are overly pricey for what they are and all I was doing was sharing a link to a supplier of equipment intended for this type of installation.   

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Have Air Source Heat Pumps not made it into marine yet?
I use one to heat my pond (yes, really) and with an ambient air temperature of around five degrees upwards I put in 1kw and get 7kw out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Ricardo ive just re read your last 2 posts again and quite frankly I take offence at the way you have insinuated that I was implying not using the correct or proper marine intended parts isnt doing a proper job, that is not what I was suggesting at all. 

 

 

 

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