Dee And Mike

[MauriceMynah]

Ricardo, please correct me if I'm wrong but if the fresh water supply is already in the boat in it's tank, and for some reason it all leaves the tank and falls into the bilge, it will make no difference to the amount of water in the boat, only it's position within it. is that correct or have I got the wrong end of the stick and that that was not what you were trying to explain.

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Ricardo, please correct me if I'm wrong but if the fresh water supply is already in the boat in it's tank, and for some reason it all leaves the tank and falls into the bilge, it will make no difference to the amount of water in the boat, only it's position within it. is that correct or have I got the wrong end of the stick and that that was not what you were trying to explain.

Yes very true but in the tank its in one place out of the tank its free to roam anywhere it wants and if the water tank is on one side of the boat its likely the water will disappear over to the now heavier side creating a nice list if the bilge pumps don't cope with it , its worth bearing in mind too that if the hot tank is where it should be close to the engine then its entirely possible for the water to end up under the engine in the drip tray where there isnt or shouldn't be a pump and only when that's full will it roam else where .

Its also worth remembering that initially the water is under pressure of possibly 20-30 psi and that will travel some distance , if electronics's get in the way like inverters and chargers etc I'd be praying that A its waterproof B it survives the bath .

The point I'm making is very simple why invite the potential of all that water into the boat when for a few pounds it can be totally avoided , it may never fail but I've had 3 now  in 12 yrs that have let go and all supplied with the hot tanks , all 9 narrow boats I fitted out had a discharge pipe over the side from the tank and all the boats I've owned have been converted , as have many others I've worked on for the simple reason I'm removing the opportunity for water to get where I shouldn't be the bilges and that can be the root cause of far more serious problem's over time .

[dnks34]

There are a number of ways i can think of that water from your domestic supply could end up in the bilges if a fault occured.   If you dont leave the domestic pump turned on when you leave the boat then it shouldnt empty itself into the bilge due to a failed prv and if it did happen while your onboard I would have thought you might notice and switch the pump off.

I am more mindful of stuffing boxes or skin fittings failing and flooding my boat with the river than getting to concerned about whats already onboard!

Also whenever i have known a prv fail they tend to weap and make the pump operate intermitantly which usually highlights the fault.

[Guest]

I'm not going to argue with you , that's how I do things that's all it just seams that every excuse in the book is bring used to not do a very simple job that could save you a lot of money and hassle , each to their own I guess .

[BroadAmbition]

I would sooner any excess domestic water, hot or cold or rain water ended up in the bilge not through a skin fitting.  Exiting through a skin fitting - that means another hole through hull and I like to keep those to a minimum. Fitting a dedicated pump in the well deck would be bonkers seeing as there is already four of em throughout.  However if the well deck was higher than the river level then a simple drain to skin fitting would be an option if somewhat unsightly, and I would insist on fitting a non return valve in the pipe

 If an item on the hot/cold domestic side failed and it went into the bilge setting off the bilge pumps, at least I would know, if it drained over the side I'd be blissfully ignorant - for a while.  If our pressure relief valve fails then the fixed hose directs it down to the bilge next to one of the bilge pumps, certainly not spraying everywhere no matter what the pressure.  If we lost both full domestic tanks into the bilge,  then 'B.A's list would remain exactly the same as it is now - zero.  Neither would the fresh water overtop the engine drip drip tray either, not that would be an issue if it did as the drip tray is always clean / contamination free.  The only issue there would be that I would have to manually remove the water from the the drip tray and dry it out.

Another point, the more low level through hull skin fittings there are, should the boat spring a proper leak and star slowly going down, that is just more through hull holes for yet more water to start coming in and speed up the sinking process

Griff

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

Not sure I see the problem really. On my boat the rear foot well drains into the bilge. The stern gland lets drips by and that goes into the bilge. The PRV from the hot water tank has a hose on it down into the bilge. I have installed a T piece on the outlet from my cold water tank and of the centre outlet installed a valve. About once every three months I just open the valve and let the contents of the water tank dump into the bilge where the 2 x bilge pumps get a good test. Keeps the inevitable amount of water in the bilge fresh and allows me to give the water tank a real good flush through every few months. On the other outlet from the T piece I have installed a domestic water meter. I know my tank holds 480 litres of water so by taking a reading once the tank is full I can always work out how much water I have left on board and whether I need to refill it.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

I would sooner any excess domestic water, hot or cold or rain water ended up in the bilge not through a skin fitting.  Exiting through a skin fitting - that means another hole through hull and I like to keep those to a minimum. Fitting a dedicated pump in the well deck would be bonkers seeing as there is already four of em throughout.  However if the well deck was higher than the river level then a simple drain to skin fitting would be an option if somewhat unsightly, and I would insist on fitting a non return valve in the pipe

 If an item on the hot/cold domestic side failed and it went into the bilge setting off the bilge pumps, at least I would know, if it drained over the side I'd be blissfully ignorant - for a while.  If our pressure relief valve fails then the fixed hose directs it down to the bilge next to one of the bilge pumps, certainly not spraying everywhere no matter what the pressure.  If we lost both full domestic tanks into the bilge,  then 'B.A's list would remain exactly the same as it is now - zero.  Neither would the fresh water overtop the engine drip drip tray either, not that would be an issue if it did as the drip tray is always clean / contamination free.  The only issue there would be that I would have to manually remove the water from the the drip tray and dry it out.

Another point, the more low level through hull skin fittings there are, should the boat spring a proper leak and star slowly going down, that is just more through hull holes for yet more water to start coming in and speed up the sinking process

Griff

OK why does it have to be low level ? Its under pressure and pump power and obviously a none return valve , clearly dome would prefer to rely on their bilge pumps n that's fine , I prefer not to have the potential of a lot of water ending up in the bilge and relying on pumps to remove it , like I said up to you really I just to take out of the equation a possible problem .

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

Not sure I see the problem really. On my boat the rear foot well drains into the bilge. The stern gland lets drips by and that goes into the bilge. The PRV from the hot water tank has a hose on it down into the bilge. I have installed a T piece on the outlet from my cold water tank and of the centre outlet installed a valve. About once every three months I just open the valve and let the contents of the water tank dump into the bilge where the 2 x bilge pumps get a good test. Keeps the inevitable amount of water in the bilge fresh and allows me to give the water tank a real good flush through every few months. On the other outlet from the T piece I have installed a domestic water meter. I know my tank holds 480 litres of water so by t aking a reading once the tank is full I can always work out how much water I have left on board and whether I need to refill it.

Thats fine but I recon quite a few folk can see a problem , I firmly believe in dry bilges ,pumps do not remove all the water and wet bilge's are a cause of osmosis that's a fact .

Please continue to do your own thing but remember your boat hardly came new with water in the bilge , but what do I know iv only built 9-10 boats .

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

3 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Thats fine but I recon quite a few folk can see a problem , I firmly believe in dry bilges ,pumps do not remove all the water and wet bilge's are a cause of osmosis that's a fact .

Please continue to do your own thing but remember your boat hardly came new with water in the bilge , but what do I know iv only built 9-10 boats .

Erm actually after the first rainfall there would have been water in the bilge since the drain from the rear footwall was installed by the boat builder, but what do I know. Well actually I know the boat is 25 years old and had a small quantity in the bilge for all of that time. At last lift out, it was also free of osmosis.

[ExSurveyor]

My Calypso is 45 years old and has some drains to the bilge,  no osmosis on last lift out. 

I run two pumps from the main batteries and a further one , higher up from the separate fridge battery,  just in case.

 

[grendel]

I dont think Broad Ambition would suffer from osmosis too badly, being a teak hull.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, KingfishersTime said:

Erm actually after the first rainfall there would have been water in the bilge since the drain from the rear footwall was installed by the boat builder, but what do I know. Well actually I know the boat is 25 years old and had a small quantity in the bilge for all of that time. At last lift out, it was also free of osmosis.

And yet I've seen 3 yr old Shetlands with osmosis , actually the older the hull the less likely it is partly due to the fact resin and fiber glass were much cheaper and they simply applied more , iv no idea why people think any water In the bilge is acceptable when there are various ways of erasing the problem .

I'll give you an example of a boat with a low level rear foot well and that's broad land lapwing , that drains into a  sump box with  a pump strainer and float switch hence no water where it should not be .

I'll do it my way you do it yours but I would be amazed if you accepted a boat that had water in the bilges to be told that that's how its done by the sellers , water should be on the outside only .

[Guest ExMemberKingFisher]

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

I'll do it my way you do it yours but I would be amazed if you accepted a boat that had water in the bilges to be told that that's how its done by the sellers , water should be on the outside only .

Without wishing to be flippant, I did when I purchased my boat.

It might be a Broadland thing, but all the hire boats I've hired in the past have had an inspection panel in the floor and a wet bilge with bilge pump. Normally the stern gland drips once or twice a minute and they often have a greaser that you screw down to pump a little more grease into the stern gland. Part of the daily routine you were asked to do at Anchorcraft, along with reed filter checks.

I can see it being a different matter on a sea going as when up on the plane all the water would run to the back, or the nearest bulkhead, but it does seem to be different on a lot of Broads boats, or maybe its a river boat thing?

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, KingfishersTime said:

Without wishing to be flippant, I did when I purchased my boat.

It might be a Broadland thing, but all the hire boats I've hired in the past have had an inspection panel in the floor and a wet bilge with bilge pump. Normally the stern gland drips once or twice a minute and they often have a greaser that you screw down to pump a little more grease into the stern gland. Part of the daily routine you were asked to do at Anchorcraft, along with reed filter checks.

I can see it being a different matter on a sea going as when up on the plane all the water would run to the back, or the nearest bulkhead, but it does seem to be different on a lot of Broads boats, or maybe its a river boat thing?

And while not being flippant you choose to teach a professional boat builder how to suck eggs though or so it seams ,  I'm fully aware that shafts leak a bit like hey have to otherwise they are too tight and over heat , however there's a better way of doing that too .

From now on I'll keep my extensive experience and knowledge to myself , I'm growing in increasingly despondent in the way those with knowledge are being treat on various threads , sure we don't know everything who does but we know enough and in many cases more than most and are mostly willing to help anyone , because its done s certain way on the boat yiu own then that doesn't mean there's a  better way  , I'm not saying my way is better but from what iv seen today on this thread the last thing it needs is more input from those who have experience of such matters , and on that note I'm out , I don't care how much water is in yours or others bilges or if you deliberately flood it from time to time , my bilge is dry n that's the way it will stay .

[Vaughan]

1/. You are all correct about this, for your own reasons.

2/. You are also all wrong, for various other reasons.

3/. I am about to have a Cognac, before I retire to sleep on it.

4/. Merry Christmas!

 

[Bound2Please]

8 hours ago, Vaughan said:

3/. I am about to have a Cognac

 

What better way to prepare for bed Vaughan, and a merry Christmas to you and Susie.

Charlie

[JennyMorgan]

Some strange answers, other than Vaughan's recent wise input.

If I had a wooden boat that leaked then I would do something about it.

If I had a glass boat that leaked then I would do something about it.

If a salesman told me that a glass boat should have water in the bilge then I would take everything he told me with a pinch of salt.

Some older boats have a shower where there is a likelihood that that will drain into the bilge, but that's what bilge pumps are for.

If a boatbuilder told me something then I would listen to him over any boat salesman. 

Do I trust salesmen? Leading question!

[dnks34]

Ricardo why do you take anybody disagreeing with you so personally?  I cant see where anyone has suggested your way is wrong!

On my boat the shaft drips when turning but without putting a sump box under the gland I cant see how I can stop water getting into the bilge.

The bilge on my boat is very deep, possibly 2 feet and is an ideal place to let water collect to be pumped overboard! 

I have tried and failed on a few boats in the past to have a dry bilge, without installing a dripless seal (which as you probably know are a big pain if they fail) I have never been able to achieve a completley dry bilge and decided it wasnt worth my bruised and bleeding knuckles and effort!!

As you have managed to achieve it I say well done as ideally I agree it would be better to be dry but in my case as the bilge is so deep it isnt causing me any issues to be concerned about so I have decided not to worry about it!!

Even if my boat could plane it would end up being pumped out before reaching the transom as the inch (ish) of water sits in a gully about 2ft below the floor!!

 

[JennyMorgan]

Does it matter if water does get into the bilge?

As I say, it's what a bilge pump is for.

As for leaking stern glands,  at best no more than minimal if properly packed and maintained.

[dnks34]

When we repacked ours ourselves this was a few years after having previously paid an expensive northern marina to do if for us the mess we removed from that packing nut explained why it had leaked almost constantly since they had charged us for doing it, and they also had the aft shaft section out for other work so it should have been easy for them to do it properly.

Since removing ALL the old packing ourselves (not leaving half an old piece in there like they had) and replacing it with 10 quids worth of ASAP’s finest it has performed perfectly since.  A few drips a minute when turning then a turn of the grease cup more or less stops the drip when stationary. 

[socrates]

On 12/17/2017 at 20:08, Candy2blue said:

Hi we are looking at buying a boat on the broads any useful information gratefully received , also just had a survey done on one and it said about oil in oil tray and oily water in bilges what is this ? And is it something we should be concerned about ? 

As a fairly new boat owner,and new to this forum. I would suggest several things.These are based on our experience over the past 4 years of owning, cruising on, and restoring Broadland Grebe. 

Firstly, everyone knows more than you! Of course they do, they own a boat and you don''t, even if you have been around boats all your life and spent two decades in the Royal Navy, people on the Broads know more than you. Secondly, buyer beware! Beware of surveyor sand yacht brokers in the same way that you would beware of estate agents and solicitors. If a deal seems to good to be true, it probably is. Go with recommendations all the time and trust your instincts, you know more than you think. There are lots of people who claim they know how boats work and how to repair/maintain. We always ask to see there work and talk with previous clients, anyone worth his/her salt will be proud of their work and willingly tell/show you what they have done. The people who work on our boat have a track record and we have researched them and seen their previous work. This has saved us time and money, as well has not having to put up with bodgers. It certainly pays to do research and talk to people. There are a lot of "experts" who can be convincing, check them out before acting on their advice. You will soon find out there are people with a good reputation and these are the people to trust.We are very fortunate in having 3 very trustworthy friends who not only have the experience and qualifications, but also know what they are talking about. It is best to limit your circle of trusted"boat advisers".  Filter feed the advice you are given by others. Learn to Identify the sharks! Love many trust few, and always trust your instincts. Do not leave your brain on the jetty when you are looking at a boat. 

Make a plan, decide what you want and then make another plan. Remember boats are expensive to buy, keep and maintain, so careful planning of finances is essential. Expect the unexpected and make every possible contingency plan. We looked at the worst case and the most expensive thing that could go wrong with our boat, costed it and set aside the funds "just in case". It is good to have a separate bank account for the boat. Remember the BA and marinas put their costs up every year, prepare for this in advance. 

You mention oil and water in the bilges. This may be something or nothing, at the end of the day it is up to you to look at what people are saying and make an informed decision. Cosmetic damage and wear and tear are part of an old boat, it is essential to distinguish between a bit of wear and tear and a major repair job. That is where the trusted people come in. We looked at around 30 boats before we purchased, the boat we purchased was not the sort we intended to purchase. We drew up a list of our requirements, tore that list up and had a real think about our lifestyle and the future. The end result was a fairly massive restoration project rather than the original idea of a new(ish) glass cruiser. The reason was we wanted a project and something to cruise in during the summer. Best of both worlds. You might feel you want to spend time working on your boat. It is like a car, you can go for a new BMW or a classic Jag. We went for the classic Jag. (again, you can read all about it). 

 

Above all, enjoy your boat and don't make it a chore. The whole experience is worth it. You get to meet some keyboard captains, sharks and shysters on the Broads, the same as anywhere else. But, you also make some very good friends along the way. Best wishes to you. 

[dnks34]

If only everyone in the market for a boat had the luxury of putting an amount aside to pay for the worst case scenario occuring like a total engine failure, for a 50hp diesel engine fitted that would be atleast 10 grand. 

Its not an attractive proposition if your considering buying a boat is it. 

My advice, unless you have very deep pockets or have mechanical/diy knowledge or interest you are prepared and able to build on, do not buy an old boat as when something breaks you cant repair yourself it will cost you a small fortune. 

Old boats Wood or Plastic if not maintained deteriorate with age and everything for a boat be it parts or labour will cost you 2 to 3 times as much.

[rightsaidfred]

A large number of Broads designed and built river boats including mine are done so with rainwater drains  going into the bilges this is not a problem and has stood the test of time as long as you have good bilge pumps and batteries and the water is clean or they wouldn't have been designed that way , I would certainly investigate any contamination though.

Fred

[Maxwellian]

Gents, ladies and Gracie :P 

I know that I am correct and that you are always wrong. I sit there with a knowing smirk on my face in silence.

this is tongue in cheek. No offence meant to anyone especially our lovely Grace.

[smellyloo]

I think people need to realise that they are anonymous to most viewers.

By this I mean the reader is not aware how knowledgeable a respondant is. Over time you get a feel for those whose opinion can be valued and whose should be ignored.

So if you offer advise that is questioned/ignored just shrug your shoulders and role your eyes.

The first person I trusted to teach me how to sail came very highly recommended (he was a self proclaimed expert) so I naively thought this could be very informative.

There was a good breeze and we were skimming along very fast. When it came to turn round and return he said .... err how do you think we should turn around?

I answered that I would leave it up to the expert at which point he disapeared below decks to assume the crash position, leaving me to turn the boat.

Anyway I have a healthy sceptism regarding self proclaimed experts. As I get to know them it quickly becomes apparent who is the bull dodoer.