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JennyMorgan

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4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

In real terms I do not believe that anyone can actually be banned from navigating on a public, tidal water anymore than someone can be banned from walking along a public footpath. 

Would we really want the Authority to be able to decide who of us can use the Broads?

I agree, my original point was that the inclusion of "boats kept in adjacent waters" being included by BA as being eligible for annual toll, was for them to avoid individuals using their boats on the main waterways, running the risk of being caught without having paid an annual toll.

At the moment the rule seems to be simple (broker broker boats excepted); if it floats and the water it floats on is connected to the main rivers you pay a toll. Now I understand that Wroxham Broad is also exempted, I don't know why.   

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1 hour ago, Philosophical said:

 

So one could argue that given very limited use of a boat moored in "adjacent waters" it is a very plausible risk to "run the gauntlet" in the circumstances that no annual toll is levied.

I don't think BA think like that , I know for a fact that in yge beginning of this toll year the visited every dyke and every marina in the brundall area , that information came form a current ranger so likely highly true .

I won't deni that there are folk that simply hide ( or attempt to ) their boat and use it when they know full well BA will not be on patrol and even seen the illegal use of trade plates ( ie not on any trial etc , and simply a trip to the pub ! ) , to me that's just as bad as any adjacent waters issue .

My point is this BA patrol normally 9-5 or less , and certainly not  every day , everyone who wants to bend ( break ) the rules knows that and that is how they get away with it , more patrols on an irregular basis would catch many who break the rules and end the  fact that BA expect boaters to do there job for them in reporting these incidents .

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2 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

I don't think BA think like that , I know for a fact that in yge beginning of this toll year the visited every dyke and every marina in the brundall area , that information came form a current ranger so likely highly true .

I won't deni that there are folk that simply hide ( or attempt to ) their boat and use it when they know full well BA will not be on patrol and even seen the illegal use of trade plates ( ie not on any trial etc , and simply a trip to the pub ! ) , to me that's just as bad as any adjacent waters issue .

My point is this BA patrol normally 9-5 or less , and certainly not  every day , everyone who wants to bend ( break ) the rules knows that and that is how they get away with it , more patrols on an irregular basis would catch many who break the rules and end the  fact that BA expect boaters to do there job for them in reporting these incidents .

Agreed, but without the "adjacent water rule" if the rangers do spot a boat in an adjacent water in Brundall without a current toll, the owner, if in fact they know who he is, can simply explain that he is not going to use the boat this year.

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7 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I agree, my original point was that the inclusion of "boats kept in adjacent waters" being included by BA as being eligible for annual toll, was for them to avoid individuals using their boats on the main waterways, running the risk of being caught without having paid an annual toll.

At the moment the rule seems to be simple (broker broker boats excepted); if it floats and the water it floats on is connected to the main rivers you pay a toll. Now I understand that Wroxham Broad is also exempted, I don't know why.   

I'm not sure its purely down to boats on brokerage I'm sure it includes anyone selling privately too or else how do you demonstrated a boat to a buyer , buy a toll? For what could be 30 mins of time on the river and the next buyer if that one doesn't buy it could be months away , if its allowed for broker's then anyone private ( and I'm sure they can already ) should if they can prove advertising etc an a legitimate trial be able to take advantage , otherwise everyone pays , that's the only fair way to do it .

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3 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

I'm not sure its purely down to boats on brokerage I'm sure it includes anyone selling privately too or else how do you demonstrated a boat to a buyer , buy a toll? For what could be 30 mins of time on the river and the next buyer if that one doesn't buy it could be months away , if its allowed for broker's then anyone private ( and I'm sure they can already ) should if they can prove advertising etc an a legitimate trial be able to take advantage , otherwise everyone pays , that's the only fair way to do it .

Not sure about that one, I'll try it next year; if challenged by a ranger I'll simply explain that the boat is on demonstration to one of my crew.

A "pretend" advert with a selling price of twice the boat's value should stop unwanted inquiries  yet satisfy the ranger that the boat is for sale.

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3 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Not sure about that one, I'll try it next year; if challenged by a ranger I'll simply explain that the boat is on demonstration to one of my crew.

A "pretend" advert with a selling price of twice the boat's value should stop unwanted inquiries  yet satisfy the ranger that the boat is for sale.

Will it now , you seam to have quite a low opinion of the rangers intelligence to be honest , of cause it won't suffice how could it .

Seams to me that its quite simple if your honest , a boat for sale is a boat for sale brokerage or not , don't forget that those on trade plates have to record every trial etc and BA can inspect anytime the want to .

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2 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Will it now , you seam to have quite a low opinion of the rangers intelligence to be honest , of cause it won't suffice how could it .

Seams to me that its quite simple if your honest , a boat for sale is a boat for sale brokerage or not , don't forget that those on trade plates have to record every trial etc and BA can inspect anytime the want to .

How does a private seller get access to trade plates for demonstration? and when did rangers become experts on boat values, I looked, not part of their job description? 

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3 minutes ago, johnb said:

Coments are made regarding the large amount of cash spent by BA taking these matters through the courts. What would be our reaction if BA sued the "little man" for the full cost of the case? 

As individuals we are all the "little man"

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13 minutes ago, johnb said:

Coments are made regarding the large amount of cash spent by BA taking these matters through the courts. What would be our reaction if BA sued the "little man" for the full cost of the case? 

They already do see the recent speeding cases .

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36 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

How does a private seller get access to trade plates for demonstration? and when did rangers become experts on boat values, I looked, not part of their job description? 

Why would it be part of their job description ? , look if you talk  to BA you will find them fair , they won't stand for taking the p*ss but they will work with you , we'll that how iv found it to be being on the river constantly for the last 6-7 yrs .

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25 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

Why would it be part of their job description ? , look if you talk  to BA you will find them fair , they won't stand for taking the p*ss but they will work with you , we'll that how iv found it to be being on the river constantly for the last 6-7 yrs .

Any comment that I had made is specifically in respect of charging a toll for adjacent waters and the possibility to abuse and avoidance of paying toll on the basis that "I do not use my boat" or in the example you raised "only for demonstration purposes". Sorry but it was you that voiced that first voiced the comment of a low view of the rangers. I've made no comment in respect of the last 6-7 years, but have simply explained a scenario whereby those so inclined could attempt to avoid tolls given a removal of the "adjacent water" conditions.     

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1 hour ago, Philosophical said:

I agree, my original point was that the inclusion of "boats kept in adjacent waters" being included by BA as being eligible for annual toll, was for them to avoid individuals using their boats on the main waterways, running the risk of being caught without having paid an annual toll.

At the moment the rule seems to be simple (broker broker boats excepted); if it floats and the water it floats on is connected to the main rivers you pay a toll. Now I understand that Wroxham Broad is also exempted, I don't know why.   

It is only exempted in part. As to why, it was bought off when the club threatened to petition against the Broads Bill.

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39 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Any comment that I had made is specifically in respect of charging a toll for adjacent waters and the possibility to abuse and avoidance of paying toll on the basis that "I do not use my boat" or in the example you raised "only for demonstration purposes". Sorry but it was you that voiced that first voiced the comment of a low view of the rangers. I've made no comment in respect of the last 6-7 years, but have simply explained a scenario whereby those so inclined could attempt to avoid tolls given a removal of the "adjacent water" conditions.     

As have i explained that it already happens n since I'm in a very good position to know I recon I can comment , I'm entirely happy with the rangers I see most often or first name terms etc and we quite often chat as they realise that I see much more than they do , in the case of the speeder in Norwich part of the evidence came from me and more still  from another forum member , BA catch I suspect few speeding boats , they are way too visible to the intelligent ones though I did get overtaken on the yare by a speeder on a bend  and the other side was a  patrol boat coming the other way , instant blue light situation but that trust me is extremely rare in fact its the only time I can remember , iv maximum respect for rangers n I don't take the p*ss n that's why they and I get on .

Sure folk can attempt to avoid tolls but they have  no idea who's watching .

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5 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

As have i explained that it already happens n since I'm in a very good position to know I recon I can comment , I'm entirely happy with the rangers I see most often or first name terms etc and we quite often chat as they realise that I see much more than they do , in the case of the speeder in Norwich part of the evidence came from me and more still  from another forum member , BA catch I suspect few speeding boats , they are way too visible to the intelligent ones though I did get overtaken on the yare by a speeder on a bend  and the other side was a  patrol boat coming the other way , instant blue light situation but that trust me is extremely rare in fact its the only time I can remember , iv maximum respect for rangers n I don't take the p*ss n that's why they and I get on .

Sure folk can attempt to avoid tolls but they have  no idea who's watching .

I am very pleased to read that you are happy with the rangers, as am I.

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Joining in with the general high regard the rangers are held in, I suspect that most of them are pretty well aware of which boats are for sale, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if "blind eyes" are shown to those who are demonstrating their vessels, even perhaps taking a short trip out to check all's well on occasions. BUT push your luck or try taking the pee and that blind eye will quickly regain it's sight, and the high jump will shortly loom.

This is only my take on it and as such has no evidence to support it.

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