Trixie (Rascal's Fleet)

[ChrisB]

I had a Nasa BM1 battery monitor on my last boat and it was a good indicator. However I swear by my digital Fluke Multimeter for electrical install testing. It was not cheap but it is now coming up to ten years old. In that time I have returned it twice for calibration, a professional would most likely calibrate yearly.

[Cal]

6 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

I don't think ti is amiss if you have not taken too much power out of the batteries to begin with. Then the time to recharge to 100% and float charge would be a great deal less than if, for example charging from half discharged.

But then you are not comparing like for like!

You claim that your 20 amp battery charger can fully charge in 3 hours what your alternator (55 amp) does in 7 which just can't be true!

Battery chemistry just doesn't allow this to happen.

[ChrisB]

[ChrisB]

yuasa_batteries-1.pdf

 

I hope that this is "The Yuasa Little Red Book of Batteries" a good publication. If not it is worth a google.

[BroomSedan]

Thanks for that ChrisB , a great publication.   People dont apear to realise a battery works by the reaction between the lead plates and the acid which takes time (can't change the laws of physics Jim). A lot apear to think putting 13v into a battery is like pouring 13ltrs into a diesel tank.but without absorbtion time the 13volts wont be there the next day.

[Meantime]

21 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

@IPA: Yes I have looked at this (we have one on Broad Ambition) so I know they work well and without fault. 

The Ring unit (C-Teak do something too) operates on a different principle so far as I can see where the residual power from the Alternator is stepped up - both in terms of voltage and then on amperage to 30Amps.  But this is taken through the start battery first.

That does not seem (in my eyes at least) to put any additional strain on the Alternator. The Sterling unit fools the Alternator to work at maximum capacity however. In so doing that makes more heat and more heat reduces the efficiency and output of an Alternator. Since my Alternator is so confined and the engine bay gets very hot, running it hard seems a bit of a bad idea. 

Now the Ring unit may itself prematurely wear out the starting battery but a new battery is far cheaper and easy to put in than a new Alternator. 

My battery charger is only 20Amps but will recharge the batteries in about 3 hours to full. I am currently running engine for upwards of 7 hours to complete the same task. Last fill up at Southgates took 83 litres and cost me £103.00. The less time I can run for and complete a full battery charge in a day the better! 

If your battery charger is 20 amps this means it can supply 20ah, which if your battery bank is either 2 or 3 batteries, 220ah or 330 ah then the charger will not recharge the batteries if they are well discharged in 3 hrs! The most it could replace would be 60ah. On the other hand your alternator is probably 55 amps, so in theory should recharge quicker. It would also recharge quicker than the Ring 30 amp B2B unit, in theory. However alternator output is dependant on a number of factors, one of which is how fast it is rotating. If the engine is just ticking over or just above tick over then it will be far from full output.

Your assumption about the Ring unit wearing out your starter battery and not stressing the alternator is slightly wrong. If your domestic batteries are low, then the Ring unit will be trying to put out its maximum output of 30 amps in the bulk charge phase. If you're on tick over or low revs, your alternator may only be putting out 20 amps in which case the Ring unit will also be drawing 10 amps from your starter battery subject to dragging it below the over discharge voltage of 12.6V. Whichever, you will be drawing maximum load from the alternator to supply the B2B unit, with the shortfall topped up from the starter battery. If the B2B unit needs less than the alternator is capable of supplying, then all the load will be on the alternator. Basically both the Ring and the Sterling units will load the alternator if they need to draw current. However if your running high engine revs and the alternator is capable of supplying 45 or 50amps then the Ring unit cannot make use of the spare above 30 amps, whereas the Sterling unit can, thus ensuring your domestic batteries get the fullest quickest charge possible.

At the end of the day, if you haven't depleted your domestic batteries too much, then both the Ring and Sterling unit or come to that alternator alone will replenish the batteries with little load on the alternator. However if your domestic batteries are fully or close to fully depleted then the Sterling unit will recharge them the quickest, followed by the Ring unit and finally the alternator the slowest.

If you are looking to reduce engine running hours, then the Sterling with it's higher output will do that the fastest.  

A word about fuel consumption however. Your diesel engine has a fuel governor. This ensures that if you set the engine revs to 1000rpm, it will do 1000 rpm, even if the load goes up. So if you are doing 1000 rpm and you then turn on your invertor and turn on an immersion heater, the engine will continue to do 1000rpm, but you will hear it load up. The engine governor at this point is injecting more diesel to keep the revs stable and stop the engine from stalling. So with the extra load you are now burning more diesel. Anything that loads the alternator burns more diesel, whether that is the Ring or Sterling unit. If you need to replace 100 amp hours into your domestic batteries it is going to cost extra in diesel, whichever method you use to do it. The way I see it, the choice is not over saving fuel with less run time, but ensuring you get everything fully recharged within your planned run time. The 60 / 40 fuel tax split takes into account diesel burnt for heating, but also allows for the fact that there is a cost to recharge batteries which are used for domestic purposes. Recharging batteries whilst underway, may seem like a freebie, but it is not, unless they are very lightly depleted.

 

[LondonRascal]

A great deal of information is being shared here about batteries and charging them (thank you) but I must say I don’t take a great deal of it in because it’s not me who is the one embarking on doing works, I just have ideas and talk to those who do know and are doing the works. They tell me the things that can be done and I procure the items - in this case looking at Battery to Battery chargers verses fiddling with an Alternator. 

At the end of the day, I have an issue that turns out not to be an issue. I have been told the issue is actually my impatience. I’d like a way to reduce the time I have to run my engine for in order to re-charge my batteries and it goes on from there. 

I think the very fact that my little battery charger IS bringing my batteries up to float charge in a relatively short space of time proves how much of a non-issue I really have going on here. This is because I had already run the engine for several hours during the day before I plugged in the battery charger. I know that after a period of heavy discharge the dinky charger would take a good long while to bring things up. 

Some confessions and truths: 

I have had a great deal of experience with hire boats and bad batteries. Open the fridge in the morning and find it wet having defrosted overnight, or most recently not able to start the heater on Western Light 1 without the engine running and once it was going and the engine was turned off getting about three hours use of the heater before it shut down due to low voltage. I was not going to have this happen to a boat I own. 

Having also had electrical issues part caused by the previous owners and part by paid professionals I was itching to get the whole thing started over and as a result much of the wiring to the batteries from the Alternator has been replaced regardless of need. A new regulator has been put on along with a ‘smart’ combiner and new batteries too. 

I find myself mooring on a Broad out of the way, or on a wild mooring so I can always have the freedom to run the engine should I need to and this goes back to my hire boating days and worries about loss of power at night. Old habits die hard. Much of this makes no logical sense but I am not ‘most people’ and I would imagine most people finding the joy of boating ruined if were constantly running an engine or lifting up the floor and taking hourly meter readings of the batteries and recording them. 

So let me go over things again - there is nothing really wrong, and due to the sheer amount of time I have run my engine and frugal use of power the batteries are never depleted that much. But I would like to be able to have something that would mean a little less engine running and moreover an intelligent, multi-stage charging process be used. It’s not good for things really to spent more than 8 hours a day running and spending  £103.00 in fuel every five days. 

It’s also been commented on that perhaps this is all a bit pointless to worry about such things on a small boat. To a great deal of people that would be very true. You buy a boat, let’s say 20 years old for £20,000 and it’s ok and in good order. You change a few things to make it your own but generally speaking unless something goes wrong you leave well alone. 

I can’t settle. I want to do a lot of these things for no other reason than for being happier in myself and some pride. Take the next round of works - she is coming back out the water and a new, harder wearing boot line painted. Also the raw water inlet on the hull  is to be changed for a ‘grated scoop’ type. This will help water flow and also help prevent as much weed getting into my Vetus water strainer. Small things on their own, but bigger when you factor the lift out required. 

I have decided to save elsewhere though, so I am not having the head lining changed (which would have also required the windows to be removed to have the side lining changed to match the new headlining) just So I could have some new down-lighters put in. Instead, I’ve just got some new individually switched lamps, but they are wrong as I want a 5” diameter lens fitted to a Teak base making a total diameter of 6”. The five lamps I’ve already bought are now surplus to requirements.  That’s just water poor planning - until I found they can go in the wardrobes on Independence to replace the small lamps that use festoon bulbs currently in situ. Always a way to make a loss seem a gain. 

To make matters even more puzzling to some is the fact that in real honesty my heart is not in Trixie. She is a little too small but she is also very cute - I’d love a vacuum cleaner on board but even the smallest rechargeable would take up valuable space and that is what annoys me about her. It’s a constant issue with space, right down to only being able to store a frying pan and a single saucepan. Despite this though the show must go on...

 

[Hylander]

Take heart Robin and just be reassured that you are just normal.      Some people collect Wine or handbags or shoes and that is their thing,  you like to twiddle with boats.      I thought Trixie was for Mum anyway so why are you worried.  I am sure there is plenty of room on there for Mum.     She is a cute little boat and Independence is a great big example of what a large boat should look like.    I can think of worse things to worry about in life.     I like your spirit,  keep it up.    At the end of the day you can always sell it.

[LondonRascal]

3 minutes ago, Hylander said:

 I thought Trixie was for Mum anyway so why are you worried.  I am sure there is plenty of room on there for Mum.    

So did my Mum, but then I never asked her for any contribution in the end. Everything from bedding to utensils to the works that have gone on has been as a result of me. 

It means the boat will be a lovely example of this type for her to use with Simon or not as the case may be and for someone else one day. If she had her way the only thing to have been done would have been the canopy as that was an actual need.

 

 

[Hylander]

5 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

It means the boat will be a lovely example of this type for her to use with Simon or not as the case may be and for someone else one day. If she had her way the only thing to have been done would have been the canopy as that was an actual need.

 

 

Your Mum sounds like me.      You get like this when you get older.      Use to think my old Mum was a real scrooge at times but I have become my mother.     Give it time and you will think the same Robin.

 

She is a lovely boat, something to be proud of.

[scaniaman]

So Robin, whats the next boat for the fleet? 

paul

[LondonRascal]

1 hour ago, scaniaman said:

So Robin, whats the next boat for the fleet? 

paul

A very rare one that has no issues, and actually costs nothing to keep lol

[Maxwellian]

4 minutes ago, LondonRascal said:

A very rare one that has no issues, and actually costs nothing to keep lol

I am looking for one of those too!

[ChrisB]

10 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

A very rare one that has no issues, and actually costs nothing to keep lol

You could compromise by selling both the boats you have and buy a new Haines 32 Offshore.

Perfectly capable of crossing to Holland to explore Freisland and onwards to the Baltic but equally at home on The Broads.

Only saying so because if I could,  it would be my choice, RCD cat B, single and twin engine options. Choice of layouts, wood finishes etc. 

I can only think what if our retirement had not come to such a tragic and premature end.

[SwanR]

2 hours ago, ChrisB said:

You could compromise by selling both the boats you have and buy a new Haines 32 Offshore.

Just Googled that boat. Very nice indeed. 

Any video updates coming soon Robin? Guessing that "life" might be keeping you rather busy at the moment for picking up the camera.

[Hylander]

I just love the Haines 35.    So if Father Christmas is reading these posts , can you reserve one for me please.  I have been a good girl (and thats my story).     

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, ChrisB said:

You could compromise by selling both the boats you have and buy a new Haines 32 Offshore.

Perfectly capable of crossing to Holland to explore Freisland and onwards to the Baltic but equally at home on The Broads.

Only saying so because if I could,  it would be my choice, RCD cat B, single and twin engine options. Choice of layouts, wood finishes etc. 

I can only think what if our retirement had not come to such a tragic and premature end.

lovely boat but not a new one, get a late used example and let someone else take the initial massive deprecation hit, run the engines in, and get any niggles sorted under warranty.

[vanessan]

15 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

A very rare one that has no issues, and actually costs nothing to keep lol

A coracle springs to mind. 

[ChrisB]

1 minute ago, vanessan said:

A coracle springs to mind. 

Have you been in one? I had a big issue with one tipping me in.

[vanessan]

No, I was a mere babe when they were in fashion. 

[ChrisB]

5 minutes ago, vanessan said:

No, I was a mere babe when they were in fashion. 

I went to some sort of coracle regatta at Ironbridge years ago and after a couple of Herefords best apple juice it seemed like a good idea! I had only gone 10ft from the bank when it tipped me in.

How folk made a living salmon fishing from them? Must have had a very hightened sense of balance.

[vanessan]

Always look to me as if they’d just go round and round in circles! After a couple of bevvies you probably wouldn’t have a clue what you were doing or where you were going. Might be quite suitable and a novelty for the Broads, on second thoughts maybe not!! 

[LondonRascal]

The Haines 32, to me just reminds me of Brinks Omega - admittedly the interior fit out is exceptional, but the look and the fact sadly she is only 32 feet long and has one cabin so this and boats like these will always be a no for me. I wish there was something out there like a Bounty Sedan (San Remo/Melody) where you have width, outside accommodation, and two cabins. When I say like a Bounty Sedan I mean in a new boat with such accommodation, not waiting for a Melody to pop up on the market.

That said, one of my main gripes with ex-hire boats has been the general external wear and tear they get through their lives and thinking how it would be almost impossible to get things back to factory condition. However, Sutton Staithe achieve such with their re-paints being relatively rare in so far as they spray paint everything and it is a complete job - windows out and sent for refurbishment,  rubbing strakes off - everything is taken off and right back, filled, faired and then 6 coats of two-pack paint is sprayed on.  The fact it costs over £20,000 for a superstructure and hull repaint for an average sized boat, shows the effort and time this sort of finish takes.

As far as videos go - I did a big update talking over things generally, took out the memory card to bring back to edit and upload and can I find it..? No. But yes it is long overdue - especially the fact I have not introduced You Tube to Trixie and done a full walk through and showing what is what onboard her.  I have taken a step back from filming, mainly because it was only until I stopped did I see how much it took over anything I did so far as boating went but also because it was getting very much the same old again and again and anybody can talk to a camera and take some scenic shots on a boat.  I have begun to get the creative ideas coming back though and it would be nice to produce a new series so watch out for new content coming.

[ChrisB]

I must have misunderstood your intentions Robin for which I am sorry.

With your purchase of the Trader I assumed that you wished to go, if not bluewater then overseas.

I have done a fair bit of passage making and in common with most deep water sailors accommodation is not high priority.

The Haines 32, to me is a great compromise between comfort and seaworthyness.

That said I would always prefer a mast and sail for true cruising but at my age now would lean towards a good motor sailer. 

I think that there was none better than the Fisher range, unfortunately beyond my reach when I was a serious passage maker.

And now that I could afford something very capable beyond my physical capabilities.

[dnks34]

We bought an exhire boat and never wish to repeat the experience!!  Initially it was an absolute nightmare and not the vision we were being sold.  It took a long time (years) to get it up to a reasonable standard, my advice to any would be boat owner is never to buy a boat thats just come off hire unless you plan to keep having to spend on it to put right years worth of hidden hire yard neglect however some yards are definately better than others. 

I noticed some of the old alpha boats have sold, now they really would benefit from such a paint job!