Forum Behaviour

[batrabill]

BTW I’m not making any complaints. I have a thick skin.

I don’t use the bullying word, but I have said “playground ganging-up” 

which is what it feels like from here. 

[JohnK]

You must also accept that once 3 or 4 of the usual suspects have agreed on something it gets less and less likely someone will present a counter argument. So the “consensus” is self-reinforcing. 
I have a PM from someone who said they agreed with me but “wouldn’t dare” say it on open forum. 
Worth thinking about?

Couldn’t agree more. That was exactly my view on the swimming thread until I felt the minority were getting badly treated.
Now I just feel I’m being told over and over I’m wrong with nobody giving the slightest consideration to the possibility I have a point.
Hey ho, I can take it, I get far worse at work most days.
The funniest part is I was thinking I was trying to help but I’m seen by most as trying to undermine the forum.
So my options going forward are keep quiet or agree with the majority. Sad really in my opinion.

[grendel]

John, you have every right to your opinion, and you have every right to express it, just dont be surprised if everyone else doesnt agree with you, as they too have their own opinions, and the right to express it too.

I am sorry f you feel that your opinions are not being given the consideration they deserve. I can only answer for myself but I try to look at others opinions, and see if they change mine before I answer a post. that I dont directly answer an opinion doesnt mean I havent considered it.

[smellyloo]

If somebody is made to feel their opinion is worthless to the extent that they no longer feel able to make further postings then that could be considered bullying.

Now I hear cries from the brave stating that they should grow a thicker skin because that's how forum discourse takes place. However my last statement is also bullying designed to make the unfortunate target feel even more worthless.

One of the previous posters, sorry I forget who, stated that the onus is on us all to call out bullying posts so that hopefully nobody has to be made to feel worthless whilst participating on nbn.

To make the glib statement that those who have been brave enough to raise the topic are guilty of crying foul to sabotage a thread are just reaffirming that bullying exists.

 

 

[grendel]

you dont have to call out such posts publicly, simply hit the report button and the moderators will look at the post to see if it is indeed bullying, in a lot of cases it is clearly just misunderstanding, but we treat each case on its merits, and try not to let our personal opinions on that topic twist our judgement.

We all (everyone - not the moderators alone) sometimes read into a post meanings that we see, but that are in truth not there, or were never intended. this is a problem with communicating by forum, with the written word.

[marshman]

I have to agree with JohnK again - whilst I too have had a thick skin for a long long time, I now recognise the signs and generally keep well away on some issues

I agree entirely that there are  some people who will post ad nauseum repeating the same argument ( its not as an argument is two sided! ) over and over again and at every opportunity to say so, repeat it. Look back at the swimming thread and you will see what I mean.

Vaughan commented when I mentioned about minority pressure groups but thats what it seems like to me - these people may feel they are in the majority since they are certainly in the majority if you only regard posts, but what does that mean? They have too much time on their hands?

Just because they are posting most frequently by no means indicates a majority of members and the swimming thread again illustrates this as anyone supporting this was immediately swamped with responses from the main protagonists so its easier not to comment at all - and indeed reading John's comment, I think that was exactly what happened.

Moderators play an important role in any Forum but when you see any senior Moderator supporting to such an extent a particular argument, then that too has an impact - perhaps that puts off some people from complaining but when issues get so heated as they clearly did, perhaps Moderators should post with a degree of anonymity - as they do now, that may imply "official" support for the line taken?

I have to say that the swimming thread brought, IMHO, the worst out of this Forum and showed it in a poor light and you should take the comments seriously. You certainly needed a very thick skin to point out any opposing view here  and I am not at all surprised to see the comments this thread has brought to the surface and fully understand that some comments that some individuals have felt a degree of intimidation.

P.S. Not me I hasten to add but at the same time I gave up putting forward any alternative view as it would immediately have been "shot" down by those who think they know better (and they don't always by any means! )

 

 

[Bound2Please]

7 minutes ago, marshman said:

I gave up putting forward any alternative view as it would immediately have been "shot" down by those who think they know better (and they don't always by any means!

Marshman I for one wish you had put forward an alternative view on the swimming thread, that was pro safety, or some other alternative view you had. i for one would have listened.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

A there you go. I think we can assume I am one of that ‘faction’.  But I contacted the organiser and encouraged her to contribute so we could get some facts. Creating discontent??

For those that still don’t get it, she found the response far from ‘friendly’.

That’s where things kicked off. 

I have looked back at the thread and the only instance of creating discontent from this side of the argument is Bobdog adding “National Park” to his response. Sorry Bobdog but that’s true right?

BUT that’s only as annoying it is to me and many others to read all the non-fact based insults against the BA. 

The difference is, the “majority” find one annoying and not the other. 

No Bill, not you, you have become one of the regulars and long may you continue as such. PS I need a sparring partner, makes life far more fulfilling!

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

You must also accept that once 3 or 4 of the usual suspects have agreed on something it gets less and less likely someone will present a counter argument. So the “consensus” is self-reinforcing. 

I have a PM from someone who said they agreed with me but “wouldn’t dare” say it on open forum. 

Worth thinking about?

Do you know, Bill, I get just the same sort of PM, funny old world isn't it!

If an argument is sound, and I believe that the safety issues surrounding the Waveney Swim are, then of course people will agree, is that so bad? I certainly wouldn't agree with my old school mate of many years ago, Vaughan, if I didn't believe that he was right and I know darn well that he won't support me if he thinks that I am wrong, witness my mention of blockades. There are a few folk who just want to pick a fight, I honestly don't think that you are one of them.

[JawsOrca]

I must admit, I don't post on here as much as I used to, not only because I don't have as much time these days, but because I do find I have to bite my tongue far too often and if I do post I have a strong impression that someone will comment back just to cause an argument.  The forum has ground considerably since when I joined and it always was the place for a constructive discussion place, it is a huge shame that both new members and some older ones are pushing for a bit of a power struggle. I also know that couple of members do come on here and other forums just to cause an upset, personally I find that as a huge shame and I do wish these people find something better to do with their time. 

[dnks34]

When folk post in different places under the same name and often appear to be supporting the devisive or minority view it does beg a question in my opinion. 

[JohnK]

I don’t think it’s about disagreeing or agreeing.
I don’t think anyone is saying less people should agree are they?
It’s about the manner of disagreeing and whether it becomes personal.
Some people seem to struggle with the difference between disagreeing with a persons opinion on a subject and finding a person disagreeable.
Others seem to turn to personal criticism when they run out of cogent reasons to disagree.

As an example of my point there are very few people here I like more than JM. But I couldn’t agree with him less about what JP is trying to achieve. I will criticise his arguments and his conclusions until the cows come home but I’ll never criticise him personally.

I know I’m rambling now so feel free to stop reading
I used to have a boss years ago who used to criticise pretty much everything I said and did. Often in meetings. I thought initially he was a d**k head. After a while I realised that after every debate we had I either realised I was wrong or I had an extremely strong argument as to why I was right. We never fell out once.

[smellyloo]

8 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

When folk post in different places under the same name and often appear to be supporting the devisive or minority view it does beg a question in my opinion. 

The fact that you are aware that they post elsewhere under the same name suggests that you also take an interest in things elsewhere.

It follows that you can judge whether their arguments are consistent in both places, if not then assuming an ulterior motive to their posts is a reasonable assumption.

[MauriceMynah]

If one makes a statement, there will be those posters who agree, and those posters who do not. If the split is pretty even, then debate will flourish, and assuming said debate is not one of massive importance, an interesting and informative thread develops.

There are two other options.

If the debate is one of significant importance, then deeply held beliefs may well cause the thread to sink into the depths of personal comments. This is not only undesirable but also against the rules and spirit of the forum. The thread will likely be locked causing it's own outrage as to why such an important topic should be killed off. 

The other option is what seems to me to have happened in the swimming topic. It is an important issue but the two sides of the debate are far from evenly balanced with the anti's far outweighing the pros

Under these circumstances it surely will be felt my the minority group that they are being ganged up on by the far larger group, and this will lead to a feeling of being bullied. I do not believe for one moment that the call of bullying is being used as a way of forwarding their standpoint, and I am equally sure that the feeling is totally genuine. The problem is that how ever strongly felt, this feeling is in error.

Sadly I agree that in the world of computer forums, there will be people who like to pull on peoples chains. Some do it for fun (as I occasionally do to PW) others might have less charitable motives. There will also be those who like to pick an argument with a certain other member, whatever he has said. This is unconstructive and a bit disruptive to any forum. I am in no doubt that we have both of these types onboard the good ship NBN but happily not in great numbers.

All the above is why forums like this need to have moderators, though it has to be remembered at all times that these moderators have opinions too, and an equal right to voice them. 

[JennyMorgan]

56 minutes ago, JohnK said:

I don’t think it’s about disagreeing or agreeing.
I don’t think anyone is saying less people should agree are they?
It’s about the manner of disagreeing and whether it becomes personal.
Some people seem to struggle with the difference between disagreeing with a persons opinion on a subject and finding a person disagreeable.
Others seem to turn to personal criticism when they run out of cogent reasons to disagree.

As an example of my point there are very few people here I like more than JM. But I couldn’t agree with him less about what JP is trying to achieve. I will criticise his arguments and his conclusions until the cows come home but I’ll never criticise him personally.

I know I’m rambling now so feel free to stop reading
I used to have a boss years ago who used to criticise pretty much everything I said and did. Often in meetings. I thought initially he was a d**k head. After a while I realised that after every debate we had I either realised I was wrong or I had an extremely strong argument as to why I was right. We never fell out once.

You old softy you!

[batrabill]

This may surprise people.

 

Went through the Swimming thread 

Individuals clearly against 21

Individuals clearly in favour 15

No obvious view 10

Now, I wasn't really being careful about counting, but its there out thereabouts... I

But it doesn't really matter if the numbers are 2, 3 or 4 out, the point remains - there isn't much of a majority at all is there? Yet the debate was very often talked about in majority/minority terms.

So what we have is two sides in a debate. 

 

[Labrador]

Civilization is skin deep.

[vanessan]

39 minutes ago, Labrador said:

Civilization is skin deep.

So is beauty! 

[grendel]

2 hours ago, batrabill said:

This may surprise people.

 

Went through the Swimming thread 

Individuals clearly against 21

Individuals clearly in favour 15

No obvious view 10

Now, I wasn't really being careful about counting, but its there out thereabouts... I

But it doesn't really matter if the numbers are 2, 3 or 4 out, the point remains - there isn't much of a majority at all is there? Yet the debate was very often talked about in majority/minority terms.

So what we have is two sides in a debate. 

 

 

Bill, its funny, but I have just done a similar exercise, in favour I found 10, against- only one or two, no obvious view I saw 7, but the majority, who were not against the swim as such, but had concerns over the safety aspects at that location I counted 25,

now like you I may be one or two off, but I dont see all these people against a swim period, just that it should be in a better location. so the minority here may well be those that just said no, the rest just expressed concern on the grounds of safety, now where is all the negativity we have been told the supporters of the swim were facing.

I guess its all in how you define those who are against the idea.

Yet the supporters group kept crying out that they were the downtrodden minority. like you I dont see a minority here.

As you say, it is still very much a debate, I am sure if some of the safety concerns were allayed, then you would find you have more supporters than you thought.

[marshman]

Perhaps that is crux of the problem - I see 25 individuals expressing their perception of the safety issues as being pretty "anti" !!

So as I saw it as being one sided, that was why I left it alone, and I clearly was not the only one!!!

[dnks34]

Im finding this ongoing attempt at trying to justify whatever opinion you have over the swimming event a bit pointless now.

Is it time to move on?!

[MauriceMynah]

8 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

Im finding this ongoing attempt at trying to justify whatever opinion you have over the swimming event a bit pointless now.

Is it time to move on?!

Not if some members feel bullied no, and even less so if people feel inclined to leave the forum because of what they perceive as bullying

[Bound2Please]

You have raised a good point there MM

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, marshman said:

Perhaps that is crux of the problem - I see 25 individuals expressing their perception of the safety issues as being pretty "anti" !!

So as I saw it as being one sided, that was why I left it alone, and I clearly was not the only one!!!

Perception ?? Its real for heavens sake the danger most can recognise is there , as for 25 anti that's grossly unfair as 25 member's are no anti at all but would prefer it to be held in an area more suitable , how is that anti swimming event ?????? Its not its just common sense !!!!!!!! 

[JohnK]

Perception ?? Its real for heavens sake the danger most can recognise is there , as for 25 anti that's grossly unfair as 25 member's are no anti at all but would prefer it to be held in an area more suitable , how is that anti swimming event ?????? Its not its just common sense !!!!!!!! 

This thread is for discussing forum behaviour not the swimming event