So, What Would You Do?

[Davydine]

If you were, say, moored at The free moorings on Womack water and you saw a hireboat going down river well after sunset, (sort of well after 10:00pm) and navigating by torch light?

 

[Betty1]

Ignore it.

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Davydine]

I know, but does there not come a point at which someone should have a quiet word?

 

[MauriceMynah]

Not these day no!

[Davydine]

13 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Not these day no!

Lol, ok!

[Chelsea14Ian]

You could report them if you so wishes.We used to see it at Breydon. There it can happen people mis judge the tides/time to cross the water.One year we moored at Stacey using nav lights almost dark,a hire boat followed us.

[vanessan]

8 hours ago, Davydine said:

Lol, ok!

If you were able to get the name of the boat or reg number, you could report it to the Broads Authority the next day. They would no doubt have a quiet word with the hirers. Navigating after dark in a hire boat is not permitted and they could be a danger to themselves and others. Or you could just turn a blind eye as has already been suggested, your choice. 

[vanessan]

I should have added there that this is something that does crop up from time to time and there are differing views as to what should be done. Some take the ‘live and let live’ attitude while others take the ‘that’s prohibited and could be dangerous’ view. That’s why I said your choice. Sorry, good question though. 

[Guest]

Without an index number its a waste of time reporting it really , that said if you get a good description of the vessel especially hire company you could get lucky .

Let's not forget that the vessel would be uninsured traveling at night and if it hit anyone they would no doubt have to claim on their own insurance which is hardly right when the injured party was probably moored and doing nothing wrong , as far as a quite word with the crew that's a definite NO , its dark and you don't know who your dealing with they maybe OK and they may not its not worth the risk .

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, Ricardo said:

Without an index number its a waste of time reporting it really , that said if you get a good description of the vessel especially hire company you could get lucky .

Let's not forget that the vessel would be uninsured traveling at night and if it hit anyone they would no doubt have to claim on their own insurance which is hardly right when the injured party was probably moored and doing nothing wrong , as far as a quite word with the crew that's a definite NO , its dark and you don't know who your dealing with they maybe OK and they may not its not worth the risk .

I'm not sure that is entirely right in regards to the insurance? Vaughan may know the answer having been involved with the hire trade?

All boats need to have third party liability insurance. This normally can not be invalidated by the owner, or hirer as it is there by the very name for the protection of the third party. Whilst hirers are not allowed by the byelaws to navigate after dark, it may or may not also be a restriction of the insurance policy, but that would only invalidate the insurance policy from the point of view of paying out for any damage to the owner or hirer, rather than the third party.

A similar example but based around car insurance. We all know that drink driving is illegal, however if I did drink and drive and cause an accident the small print in my insurance policy says it would not pay me a penny in relation to the damage caused to my car, but it would still cover my third party liabilities to the maximum extent required by law. In addition they caveat that they would pursue me to try and recover any money they have had to pay out to a third party to the fullest extent of the law. So basically if I did drink and drive and cause an accident, my insurance would still cover anybody else effected, including other occupants of my car, but I would end up severely out of pocket, as should be the case.

Thinking about some other boating examples, it is after dark and a hire boat is mud weighted on a broad and due to the wind it breaks free and drifts into another boat causing damage. I think the third party liability would still pay out even though it is after dark. Or a hire boat is set adrift from its mooring and collides with another boat. Whilst it is hardly the fault of the people on board the hire companies insurance company would have to pay out under the third party section.

Edited to add: To the original posters question, I would probably try and make a note of the reg number and boat name, then if I heard about an incident or damage being caused the next day I could provide details to the BA, or affected party.

[vanessan]

36 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Thinking about some other boating examples, it is after dark and a hire boat is mud weighted on a broad and due to the wind it breaks free and drifts into another boat causing damage. I think the third party liability would still pay out even though it is after dark. Or a hire boat is set adrift from its mooring and collides with another boat. Whilst it is hardly the fault of the people on board the hire companies insurance company would have to pay out under the third party section.

These are ‘accidents or mishaps’ though and, as you say, would be covered. 

38 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Edited to add: To the original posters question, I would probably try and make a note of the reg number and boat name, then if I heard about an incident or damage being caused the next day I could provide details to the BA, or affected party.

But supposing you didn’t hear about it, or heard at a much later date. Would you then advise the BA? I think if you do have the boat name/reg number then you need to act asap. After all, having navigated in the dark once quite successfully, the hirers may think it’s a jolly good way to make the most of the day and continue doing it. 

[Vaughan]

Eastcoast, the answer is that if a hirer drives a boat after dark he is in breach of the conditions of hire and also in breach of the terms of the boatyard's insurance. He is also, of course, in breach of the bye-laws as hire boats are not fitted with navigation lights.

All this is made abundantly clear to them in documentation and by the instructor on the trial run. In extreme cases, if damage is done, the hirer can be removed from the boat by the yard owners and this has been known!

In the case of a boat breaking loose from its moorings at night, that is obviously an accident and would be covered by third party but if the hirer is driving at night he is not insured.

What can you do about it? Not a lot, at the time and for goodness' sake don't go shining torches at it or you will ruin the helmsman's night vision and may cause an accident yourself.

You can always report it in the morning if you think it is worth it. In the case of an actual collision, take details and report it to your own insurers, or your own hire boatyard. It will then be up to them to deal with it.

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, vanessan said:

These are ‘accidents or mishaps’ though and, as you say, would be covered. 

But supposing you didn’t hear about it, or heard at a much later date. Would you then advise the BA? I think if you do have the boat name/reg number then you need to act asap. After all, having navigated in the dark once quite successfully, the hirers may think it’s a jolly good way to make the most of the day and continue doing it. 

OK, so lets say there are two hirers racing along the river at full speed racing each other. One of them is on your side of the river and gives you no room and collides with you. A number of byelaws have been broken, it can hardly be argued that it was an accident or mishap and I suspect the hire yards insurance wouldn't cover the hire yard the damage to their own boats, for two of their boats racing, however I'm fairly certain the third party would still be paid out under the third party liability section of the hire yards insurance. Wilful or deliberate acts do not normally invalidate the third party section of the insurance.

[vanessan]

7 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

OK, so lets say there are two hirers racing along the river at full speed racing each other. One of them is on your side of the river and gives you no room and collides with you. A number of byelaws have been broken, it can hardly be argued that it was an accident or mishap and I suspect the hire yards insurance wouldn't cover the hire yard the damage to their own boats, for two of their boats racing, however I'm fairly certain the third party would still be paid out under the third party liability section of the hire yards insurance. Wilful or deliberate acts do not normally invalidate the third party section of the insurance.

But now you have come up with an entirely different set of circumstances! There is no argument re insurance, the topic is about what you would do if you saw hirers navigating after dark. 

Thinking about it even further, I believe these incidents should be reported. The BA is not going to lock ‘em up and throw away the key for heaven’s sake, they will just have a quiet word and point out the dangers as well as the fact that they are contravening the bye laws. If the hirers get caught again, well that’s a different matter. 

[SwanR]

We were hit by a hireboat after dark at St Benet’s last year. They had lights on in the boat and reversed into us seemingly without any idea we were there. Nearly knocked us off our feet. They gave up trying to get in whereas had they approached more slowly people would have taken their ropes and helped them as it was only a small boat. I did check our Skipper’s Manual to try to find where I could report them to because they were still out there somewhere in the dark. But there was nothing there. It might be helpful if this was included. 

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, vanessan said:

But now you have come up with an entirely different set of circumstances! There is no argument re insurance, the topic is about what you would do if you saw hirers navigating after dark. 

Thinking about it even further, I believe these incidents should be reported. The BA is not going to lock ‘em up and throw away the key for heaven’s sake, they will just have a quiet word and point out the dangers as well as the fact that they are contravening the bye laws. If the hirers get caught again, well that’s a different matter. 

I understand fully the original topic and did answer that in part, but the bit about insurance is in direct answer to Ricardo's post where he said that any hirer navigating after dark would not be insured and therefore the insurance company wouldn't pay out. I believe he is half right in so far as the insurance company wouldn't pay out to the hire yard, however I believe the third party part of the hire yards insurance would still pay out to any affected third parties. As per my example of car insurance, if I drink drive, then clearly I am breaking the law and clearly am not insured to drink and drive, however my insurance would still cover any third parties claim for damages if I hit property or injured a person. My actions as the driver even if acting illegally do not invalidate the third party part of my insurance, only the cover for myself. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the actions of any hirer, legal or illegal would invalidate the third party section of the hire yards insurance, only the fully comprehensive bit that would recompense the hire yard and the hirer. That is one of the founding principles of third party insurance, which is a legal requirement under the BA byelaws and to get a toll. It is there to protect the interests of innocent parties, as a result of the insured.

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, SwanR said:

We were hit by a hireboat at St Benet’s last year. They had lights on in the boat and reversed into us seemingly without any idea we were there. Nearly knocked us off our feet. They gave up trying to get in whereas had they approached more slowly people would have taken their ropes and helped them as it was only a small boat. I did check our Skipper’s Manual to try to find where I could report them to because they were still out there somewhere in the dark. But there was nothing there. It might be helpful if this was included. 

 

In that case, you should phone your own boatyard if you have been hit and damaged but if you don't have the boat's name and number, it is pointless.

[SwanR]

There was no damage to our boat thankfully. We would definitely have reported it to the yard if there had been. It just felt like the other people were still out there and may not have had a clue what they were doing or may not have cared. I appreciate that it’s not like dialling 999 and getting a police car out looking for something in minutes but it felt as if we should have told someone, we just didn’t know who that someone should be out of hours. 

[Vaughan]

East coast you may be right, at least in principle! In 40 years in the business I have never had to deal with such a case, so I don't know.

Naturally we tell the hirers that they are not insured at night, as a deterrent. It may be that they are still insured third party but we don't discuss that with them!

Edited to add :

Surely if someone is driving a car without the owner's permission, they are not insured? So if a hirer is driving a boat without the owner's permission (at night) and in breach of his conditions of hire, he also is not insured?

I wonder what the premium would be, on a policy which covered a hirer for the risk of navigating at night?

[vanessan]

4 minutes ago, SwanR said:

There was no damage to our boat thankfully. We would definitely have reported it to the yard if there had been. It just felt like the other people were still out there and may not have had a clue what they were doing or may not have cared. I appreciate that it’s not like dialling 999 and getting a police car out looking for something in minutes but it felt as if we should have told someone, we just didn’t know who that someone should be out of hours. 

If you had the other boat’s details, I think maybe you should have reported the incident to both your boatyard and the other one. Although not an emergency, (how easily it could have been!) if both boatyards had details they could act if they wanted to. I guess you would have an emergency number to ring although just an answerphone message would probably suffice. On a private boat, a message on BA’s answerphone and one to the hire yard I guess would be the way to go. 

Although we hear of, and on the odd occasion see, hire boats navigating after dark from time to time, I can’t recall ever hearing of a serious incident. I hope I never do. 

[Gracie]

Now here's the thing.....The season is now in full swing, Bank holiday weekend the rivers are going to be packed with all types of river users from hirers to canoes and yes there's probably going to be some pretty stupid behaviour from some but on the whole you will also see some brilliant helming, people having the best fun and some pretty nice friendly exchanges which warms your hearts and makes you feel you belong to this special Broads club we are all in together

I'd like to see more stories on here of the latter part of my post. Roll on Summer and enjoy our Broads and boats whoever you are and what ever your choice of activities on the rivers, just don't helm at night, don't light you BBQ's on the gas lockers or run your engines at silly o clock

Grace

[MauriceMynah]

It's perfectly safe, the hire craft isn't going to hit anything just because it's night time, because as I've learned on this very forum and pretty recently too, navigation lights are only needed for other boats to see me. I don't need a headlamp or anything else to see where I'm going, the stars will provide..

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Oh, just in case of any doubt, I am being facetious.

[vanessan]

24 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

It's perfectly safe, the hire craft isn't going to hit anything just because it's night time, because as I've learned on this very forum and pretty recently too, navigation lights are only needed for other boats to see me. I don't need a headlamp or anything else to see where I'm going, the stars will provide..

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Oh, just in case of any doubt, I am being facetious.

Flippancy, on a forum. Disgraceful! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

East coast you may be right, at least in principle! In 40 years in the business I have never had to deal with such a case, so I don't know.

Naturally we tell the hirers that they are not insured at night, as a deterrent. It may be that they are still insured third party but we don't discuss that with them!

Edited to add :

Surely if someone is driving a car without the owner's permission, they are not insured? So if a hirer is driving a boat without the owner's permission (at night) and in breach of his conditions of hire, he also is not insured?

I wonder what the premium would be, on a policy which covered a hirer for the risk of navigating at night?

Surely if someone is driving a car without the owner's permission, they are not insured? So if a hirer is driving a boat without the owner's permission (at night) and in breach of his conditions of hire, he also is not insured?

On the insurance issue, I think this is the key point.

 

[Meantime]

41 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Surely if someone is driving a car without the owner's permission, they are not insured? So if a hirer is driving a boat without the owner's permission (at night) and in breach of his conditions of hire, he also is not insured?

On the insurance issue, I think this is the key point.

 

As a matter of interest, I wonder how many people know what time dusk is tonight? because that is the point at which you break the byelaw if navigating without navigation lights! I wonder what the terms are within the insurance for what constitutes night time navigation and how it could be proven? or disproven? At what point in the day does the hire yard remove the permission to navigate? and reinstate it the next day? If a hire boat is set adrift and the occupants wake up and start the engine to moor up again, are they really not insured at this point?

I think the permission thing is a red herring. I'm sure a rental car company wouldn't give me permission to drink and drive in one of their cars, but for that car to be on the road it would need to have third party cover to indemnify any other innocent third party from my actions, legal or otherwise. That is also a condition of being issued a toll, hire or otherwise, you need to have at least third party cover.