So, What Would You Do?

[Guest]

From an insurance/legal perspective, how does this position differ to that of a hirer taking a boat out to sea through Yarmouth?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

As a matter of interest, I wonder how many people know what time dusk is tonight? because that is the point at which you break the byelaw if navigating without navigation lights! I wonder what the terms are within the insurance for what constitutes night time navigation and how it could be proven? or disproven? At what point in the day does the hire yard remove the permission to navigate? and reinstate it the next day? If a hire boat is set adrift and the occupants wake up and start the engine to moor up again, are they really not insured at this point?

I think the permission thing is a red herring. I'm sure a rental car company wouldn't give me permission to drink and drive in one of their cars, but for that car to be on the road it would need to have third party cover to indemnify any other innocent third party from my actions, legal or otherwise. That is also a condition of being issued a toll, hire or otherwise, you need to have at least third party cover.

OK so they are possibly insured but they are still breaking the bylaws , how would you prove it a simple photograph that's how , BA have issued warnings to the UEA rowing club , Norwich rowing club , and Norwich canoe club all on photographic evidence , as for the time of dusk , its easy tide timetable's ,  broadcaster , moon phase app etc etc etc or if all else fails MK 1 eyeballs .

A while a go I said that because the BA moorings at burgh castle were now shut an increase of hire boats traveling after dusk is likely , I still believe there's a good chance it can , so what happens there ie yiu can't find a mooring , you are not supposed to carry-on as its dark but you cannot moor as there's no room ? Surely at that point a certain level of common sense come into play , ie switch on forward cabin lights and draw the curtains back so you can be seen and fi d the next available mooring regardless if its on your route or not . I certainly wouldn't report anyone for that , I would if it was an unnecessary journey .

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

From an insurance/legal perspective, how does this position differ to that of a hirer taking a boat out to sea through Yarmouth?

I would imagine that the insurance would cover any third party hit, but wouldn't cover the hire boat for any damage or loss. The comprehensive section would be voided by the actions of the hirer, but not the third party section.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I would imagine that the insurance would cover any third party hit, but wouldn't cover the hire boat for any damage or loss. The comprehensive section would be voided by the actions of the hirer, but not the third party section.

 

2 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I would imagine that the insurance would cover any third party hit, but wouldn't cover the hire boat for any damage or loss. The comprehensive section would be voided by the actions of the hirer, but not the third party section.

So this is technically the position for any "unathorised" use of the hire boat, and the boatyard would be in the position of declaring if the use at the time of the incident/accident was authorised or not. 

[Vaughan]

If you are driving a car without the owner's permission, you are not covered by the owner's policy. You may be covered by your own car insurance, if this entitles you to drive any vehicle. Nowadays, that would be expensive cover! If the driver is driving without permission, the owner's insurance will not pay up. We all know that.

The time of dusk used to be covered by "lighting up time" which was published in daily newspapers along with the time of sunset and sunrise and was the time when you had to show sidelights on a road vehicle. Does this time still exist, legally?

When explaining this to hirers we always say it is the time when you would think about turning on the lights on your car. No mis-understanding there, I hope?

 

 

 

[Meantime]

Just now, Philosophical said:

 

So this is technically the position for any "unathorised" use of the hire boat, and the boatyard would be in the position of declaring if the use at the time of the incident/accident was authorised or not. 

That is true, but the declaration would not absolve their insurance company from having to pay a third party.

It is a little known fact that if you sell a car you should always inform your insurance company as soon as possible to either cancel or transfer the policy. There have been recorded cases of people selling a car and not cancelling the policy due to wanting to accrue another years no claims. If the purchaser of the car does not insure the car and has an accident it is possible that a third party may claim off the sellers insurance policy as the car is still legally insured for third party losses.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

That is true, but the declaration would not absolve their insurance company from having to pay a third party.

It is a little known fact that if you sell a car you should always inform your insurance company as soon as possible to either cancel or transfer the policy. There have been recorded cases of people selling a car and not cancelling the policy due to wanting to accrue another years no claims. If the purchaser of the car does not insure the car and has an accident it is possible that a third party may claim off the sellers insurance policy as the car is still legally insured for third party losses.

I think most of us looking at this/these scenarios from the liability to the hirer point of view for "misdemeanors".

[MauriceMynah]

there has been an awful lot of supposition and more than a few "red herrings"here. Most car insurance policies are fully comp, because that's frequently cheaper than third party only, so all that side (if car was stolen) of this debate is "red herring".

I have no idea what cover the hire fleets have, nor even if they all have the same cover so I suspect that all that side of the debate is conjecture (except of course from those "in the know")

So, where are we now? I rather think we are back at the original question. What would we do if we saw a hire craft cruising after dark?

Do we know if this cruising was as a result of an emergency?

Do we know if a member of the boat yard is on board?

Do we know if the hirers are both fully competent and have been in touch with the boatyard to inform them?

Do we know if the crew is a bunch of violent louts just spoiling for a fight?

Do we know if the crew speak or understand English?

Do we know that any confrontation with them will end well?

I think I've made my point. If they hit and damage my boat, I react. If they hit and damage a boat within my eyesight I react as a witness. If I hear from someone in authority that damage has been done, I react again as a witness but only to the fact they were underway at night. under any other circumstances that I can think of, I do nothing. I do not know the situation.

[Cockatoo]

4 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

As a matter of interest, I wonder how many people know what time dusk is tonight? because that is the point at which you break the byelaw if navigating without navigation lights! I wonder what the terms are within the insurance for what constitutes night time navigation and how it could be proven? or disproven? At what point in the day does the hire yard remove the permission to navigate? and reinstate it the next day? If a hire boat is set adrift and the occupants wake up and start the engine to moor up again, are they really not insured at this point?

 

 

I don't know about boats but when flying 'night' is 20 mins after sunset

[Bexs]

One year we watched  a Richardson’s Broadsman arrive at Ranworth island moorings at 9.30pm in the last of the evenings light. 

They left the mooring, and the broad an hour later in the pitch dark... to where, we had no idea!!!

We did mention it to the boatyard  when we returned our boat (I acknowledge too late for them to do much) but the response we got from the member of staff we told, was rather surprising....“Oh I love to night cruise, do it all the time. Best time to see the rivers”!!

Well, that maybe so, but not sure that’s the right attitude when comes to hirers without nav lights... 

[Vaughan]

17 minutes ago, Bexs said:

Well, that maybe so, but not sure that’s the right attitude when comes to hirers without nav lights...

Are you sure he was not just gently trying to tone down the nature of your complaint, in the sure knowledge that there was nothing he could do about it?

I suggest that if you feel there is real need to complain, that you do so in writing to the managing director of the boatyard, copy to the MD of Hoseasons. Then I am sure you will get a considered and serious response. This is much more effective than bending the ear of the bloke on the diesel pumps.

I am sorry if the above sounds flippant but I return to the fact that the boatyard is not responsible for the civil behaviour of its customers, any more than Hertz car rental would be.

 

 

[Bexs]

I am not sure we bent any ears, in fact I think we were just having a polite chat about our holiday.... We expressed our surprise at the late night activity.

We were however just as much surprised by the response! 

 

 

[Bexs]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I suggest that if you feel there is real need to complain, that you do so in writing to the managing director of the boatyard, copy to the MD of Hoseasons. Then I am sure you will get a considered and serious response. This is much more effective than bending the ear of the bloke on the diesel pumps.

I am not sure we bent any ears, in fact I think we were just having a polite chat about our holiday.... We expressed our surprise at the late night activity.

We were however just as much surprised by the response! 

 

[Bound2Please]

On 05/05/2018 at 13:37, Vaughan said:

f you are driving a car without the owner's permission, you are not covered by the owner's policy. You may be covered by your own car insurance, if this entitles you to drive any vehicle. Nowadays, that would be expensive cover! If the driver is driving without permission, the owner's insurance will not pay up. We all know that.

Well Vaughan I think the year was 2005, about 3 weeks before LeMans 24 hour. I was taking my daughter and 2 grandsons back to West Mersea, on bearing right as we came off the strood a car came round the bend on two wheels, taking out my complete off side of my Sierra Cosworth. It turned out it was his parents care who said he no permission to be driving it as he was unlicensed and under age.  How do I know or even remember this accident, well I was due to be driving the 24 hour course on the Thursday before the 24 hour race. any way I digress, the parents insurance company paid me out much to their disgust, but didnt pay them a penny. I also got compensation from the police victims fund for injuries that their insurance company never covered.

So I would say that if hire boat insurance is the same as car's then any boat hit would be paid out but not the hire boat.

Charlie

[Vaughan]

Perhaps the best way round this often recurring forum topic is for members who are boat owners to contact their insurers and ask the rhetorical question :

If I get clobbered on my moorings at night by a hire boat being driven in breach of the contract of hire and therefore without the owner's permission, will you be able to claim off the hire company's insurance, or will I have to take the hit on my own policy?

Their response might be most interesting.

As I said, I have never had to deal with such a claim in all my time in the business, so at least that should suggest that this kind of damage is very rare.

[TheQ]

On 05/05/2018 at 13:37, Vaughan said:

The time of dusk used to be covered by "lighting up time" which was published in daily newspapers along with the time of sunset and sunrise and was the time when you had to show sidelights on a road vehicle. Does this time still exist, legally?

4. Lighting requirements (113 to 116)

113
You MUST

• ensure all sidelights and rear registration plate lights are lit between sunset and sunrise
• use headlights at night, except on a road which has lit street lighting. These roads are generally restricted to a speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) unless otherwise specified
• use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226).

Night (the hours of darkness) is defined as the period between half an hour after sunset and half an hour before sunrise).
Laws RVLR regs 3, 24, & 25, (In Scotland - RTRA 1984 sect 82 (as amended by NRSWA, para 59 of sched 8))

[Davydine]

Wow, I have just got back from an amazing weekend and find that this thread is now on it's second page! Anyway, The boat in question had been at Womack Staithe earlier in the day. We had gone up to see what was available, the Staithe was busy but we could have got in, but we decided we would prefer to be somewhere more peaceful so went back down the dyke. The boat went past well after sunset and having had a few drinks I was full of righteous indignation that anyone could be so stupid, which prompted me to type the original post.

Anyway, the following morning, it became clear that the boat had seen the error of its ways, because they were tied to the bank a few hundred yards downstream. 

Did I get the name of the boat, yes. Did I take it any further, no. They clearly hadn't gone very far, so I felt it was best left alone.

On another note, hasn't it been an amazing weekend to be afloat?

[vanessan]

Davydine- I did warn you there would be quite a few different opinions! Glad it all turned out ok and you have enjoyed fantastic bank holiday weather. 

[Hylander]

11 hours ago, Davydine said:

Wow, I have just got back from an amazing weekend and find that this thread is now on it's second page! Anyway, The boat in question had been at Womack Staithe earlier in the day. We had gone up to see what was available, the Staithe was busy but we could have got in, but we decided we would prefer to be somewhere more peaceful so went back down the dyke. The boat went past well after sunset and having had a few drinks I was full of righteous indignation that anyone could be so stupid, which prompted me to type the original post.

Anyway, the following morning, it became clear that the boat had seen the error of its ways, because they were tied to the bank a few hundred yards downstream. 

Did I get the name of the boat, yes. Did I take it any further, no. They clearly hadn't gone very far, so I felt it was best left alone.

On another note, hasn't it been an amazing weekend to be afloat?

Who is to know what the circumstances were:--   (purely hypothetical)     Getting dark and next door (you are stern moored) starts its heating up, it is bellowing in your direction , fumes and all.   Wife starts giving hubby gbh of the ear.     Hubby thinks sod this and decides to move up stream and move away from the melee.     They are not out to tear around the Broads at night,  just should never have moored where you know it is going to be noisy. 

I must say that I was a bit shocked at Robins blog or whatever it is called when they speaking about if you had a collision.   "Just take the number and phone the yard and we will deal with it".   Dont worry about it.    I would hardly think that would be the attitude of a privatee and his/her pride and joy.       It gives the impression that you can go around bashing into people and its ok - dont worry about it.   Well that is the way it came across to me.

 

[MauriceMynah]

I might be wrong here and would be grateful for any corrections forthcoming, but it is my suspicion that the rules governing navigation lights are taken from the basic marine regulations. They have no, or few, modifications to accommodate cruising the inland waterways.

I find myself wondering many things, not least of all are, Where do I mount a masthead light given that I have no mast?

If it has to be visible 360 degrees, where would I mount it where it wouldn't destroy my night vision?

Whilst typing this I cannot call to mind exactly what the regulations are, ie what size boat has to show which lights, but my point is that a 30' boat be it, sailie, narrow boat, bathtub, aft-cockpit or  centre cockpit boat, the rules are the same, yet the situation varies massively.

[JohnK]

I think it’s ok to have one forward facing white light and one rear facing as well as the red and green ones.
That’s what I have with no issue with night vision

[TheQ]

53 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I might be wrong here and would be grateful for any corrections forthcoming, but it is my suspicion that the rules governing navigation lights are taken from the basic marine regulations. They have no, or few, modifications to accommodate cruising the inland waterways.

I find myself wondering many things, not least of all are, Where do I mount a masthead light given that I have no mast?

If it has to be visible 360 degrees, where would I mount it where it wouldn't destroy my night vision?

Whilst typing this I cannot call to mind exactly what the regulations are, ie what size boat has to show which lights, but my point is that a 30' boat be it, sailie, narrow boat, bathtub, aft-cockpit or  centre cockpit boat, the rules are the same, yet the situation varies massively.

Not quite, as the lighting requirements are slightly different between sailies and smokies..

Broads regulations 35 and 36...

(1) Subject to paragraph (2) the master of a power-driven vessel underway shall cause to be exhibited:
(a) a masthead light;
(b) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than that in (a) except that a master of a vessel less than 50 metres (164 feet) in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such light but may do so;
(c) sidelights;
(d) a sternlight.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1):
(a) the master of a power-driven vessel less than 12 metres (39 feet 4 inches) in length may cause to be exhibited in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (1) an all-round white light and sidelights, and
(b) the master of a power-driven vessel less than 7 metres (23 feet) in length may cause to be exhibited in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph (1) of this Byelaw an allround white light and shall, if practicable, also cause to be exhibited sidelights.
(1) The master of a sailing vessel underway shall cause to be exhibited:
(a) sidelights; and
(b) a sternlight.
(2) The master of a sailing vessel underway may, in addition to but not in substitution for the lights prescribed in paragraph (1) cause to be exhibited at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green.
(3) The master of a manually propelled vessel or a quanted vessel underway which is 4.5 metres (14 feet 9 inches) or more in length shall cause to be exhibited the lights in paragraph (1) or shall cause to be exhibited an all-round white light or two white lights giving the same coverage.
Power-driven 35 Vessels Underway
Sailing Vessels    36 Manually Propelled Vessels and Quanted Vessels Underway
17
(4) The master of a manually propelled vessel or a quanted vessel underway which is less than 4.5 metres (14 feet 9 inches) in length shall ensure that there is ready at hand in the vessel an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light and shall cause such torch or lantern to be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.

I've made provision for a small fold down mast on the forward cabin roof, on top of which will be the all round white light, shielded so it doesn't shine down into the helms eyes..
 

[Guest]

Would I be correct in thinking that the rule for hirers is something like "Cruising forbidden after dark" , not dusk, or official sunset?

I just thought it best to clarify this before we start hanging hirers from the yardarm for cruising after official sunset times.

[Bound2Please]

21 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

I just thought it best to clarify this before we start hanging hirers from the yardarm for cruising after official sunset times.

We shouldnt be hanging any hirers or privately owned boats skippers, educate them yes but hang or try them no .

[Meantime]

23 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Would I be correct in thinking that the rule for hirers is something like "Cruising forbidden after dark" , not dusk, or official sunset?

I just thought it best to clarify this before we start hanging hirers from the yardarm for cruising after official sunset times.

I'm not sure what is printed in the hirers manual, but the byelaws which take precedent over any hire yard rules, are that Navigation lights apply from sunset to sunrise.