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psychicsurveyor

Penalty Notice Glue Removal

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8 minutes ago, Islander said:

 

Very true Phil but I wouldn't stick one onto 8 coats of varnish of a woody. I would make something to stick them on and did. In this case what I see is the ranger not taking enough care in confirming facts before issuing a penalty notice. 

Colin

My point is that, if for whatever reason the BA has the requirement to attach a notice to a boat be it a pristine Riva Aquarama or a rusty hulk, they should do so without damage to the boat.  

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16 minutes ago, Baitrunner said:

So did you have a valid and visible change toll ref number?

not trying to be awkward. But if not what do you expect?

Fully tolled in March,  reg numbers in the correct size and place, even if it was a legitimate penalty notice,  it is outrageous to cause damage fixing it to the boat.

Sheer incompetence,  the Rangers know only to fix then to glass,  I have seen the damage they have caused to gelcoat and wooden doors in the marina.

I should deliver an invoice to Fawlty Towers over the weekend and glue it to the front door or perhaps nail it to a window :default_wacko:

 

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Right fore a start hears what I know , I tolled and registered a boat yesterday this morning it's showing on the same system as the rangers use at 8am as a tolled vessel , OK putting it on perspex is naughty but where are these guidelines iv never seen guidelines to rangers as to where to put them indeed but varnished wood should be a no no , as should perspex , problem being perspex on less its very tied looks like glass or it should do , I do know that the OP will have amongst the paper work a confirmation of payment either via email or by paper , that has on it exactly when the vessel was tolled , not the date it went on the system as that can be a day later but the day that the toll was considered paid , that is all the proof needed to support you though I do think trying to charge BA for removal is never going to happen , had damage occurred in the removal then that's different but difficult to prove , as for getting them off on glass white spirit or acetone works but certainly not on perspex or varnish or paint , WD40 works fine too on virtually all surfaces without damage , now I know both the full time rangers on this stretch of river personally n I don't image for one minute they would do that in fact I'd back them that they wouldn't , I imagine the adhesive is pretty similar to the stuff used on graphics .

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4 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Fully tolled in March,  reg numbers in the correct size and place, even if it was a legitimate penalty notice,  it is outrageous to cause damage fixing it to the boat.

Sheer incompetence,  the Rangers know only to fix then to glass,  I have seen the damage they have caused to gelcoat and wooden doors in the marina.

I should deliver an invoice to Fawlty Towers over the weekend and glue it to the front door or perhaps nail it to a window :default_wacko:

 

I do agree the adhesive is way over the top I took one of my boat a few weeks ago that had bee placed there by a ranger based purely on assumption , hence I know the white spirit shift's it but that was on glass n still took a fair while , the reason for issue was yge ranger saw the vessel on a public mooring on a Friday and again on the following Tuesday and ASSUMED I'd been there 4 days , luckily I could prove and did so directly to the head of ranger services that I clearly hadn't , I still had to put up with the badly written , totally inaccurate and aggressive tone of something that should never have been issued .

I can see HRS becoming a very busy woman if this ridiculous situation is allowed to continue n trust me she knows I was furious about it , they simply cannot issue tickets based on pure guess work ,  on less they wisk to end up being prosecuted them self's or laughed out of court .

As someone living on the river 24/7 I have noticed especially lately a marked increase in stupidity the issue of notices based on no checking prior to issue , trust me you and I are not alone I know there are others n I also know of un tolled boats that haven't had notice's even if the ranger has clearly seen them !! 

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4 hours ago, Ricardo said:

I do think trying to charge BA for removal is never going to happen ,

 

4 hours ago, Ricardo said:

Right fore a start hears what I know , I tolled and registered a boat yesterday this morning it's showing on the same system as the rangers use at 8am as a tolled vessel , OK putting it on perspex is naughty but where are these guidelines iv never seen guidelines to rangers as to where to put them indeed but varnished wood should be a no no , as should perspex , problem being perspex on less its very tied looks like glass or it should do , I do know that the OP will have amongst the paper work a confirmation of payment either via email or by paper , that has on it exactly when the vessel was tolled , not the date it went on the system as that can be a day later but the day that the toll was considered paid , that is all the proof needed to support you though I do think trying to charge BA for removal is never going to happen , had damage occurred in the removal then that's different but difficult to prove , as for getting them off on glass white spirit or acetone works but certainly not on perspex or varnish or paint , WD40 works fine too on virtually all surfaces without damage , now I know both the full time rangers on this stretch of river personally n I don't image for one minute they would do that in fact I'd back them that they wouldn't , I imagine the adhesive is pretty similar to the stuff used on graphics .

Clearly there's been some slip up in "system" which constructive feedback needs to be given to the BA.

If Joel in tolls office has confirmed that the boat is tolled over the phone, then shouldn't the ranger have made the call to this office before sticking the notice on??  

If it was a mistype in typing the number in the "system" then is there an additional cross reference such as boat make etc?

Do we really need to stick a notice on the boat in this day in age? If the boat is registered and has a postal address or phone number on the system why can't contact be sent this way? Sticking a notice, which the adhesives are generally stronger to cause issues with removing, just comes across to me as immature retaliation.  If the boats not registered on the system then maybe put a physical notice on but perhaps there's less confrontational notices to use. 

Considering these glues are generally stronger and are intended to be difficult to remove, I don't see any reason why not to retrieve costs of removal the company whom wrongly applied it.  You are fully intitled to do so and any company will have procedures to cope with this.  Whilst it's a little morally concerning to do this to a publicly funded body, in some ways it's the only way to get the point across in a way that's understood.

I hope you get sorted soon Mark, keep us updated. 

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In my defence Jaws I did say that I doubted BA would compensate for glue removal but if the window became damaged in the process then they should do , as for rangers doing their job I saw last weekend 3 boats all around 40' sat on somerleyton for 3 days n not one notice issued one vessel had the brass neck to have no index numbers on it and no its not new here its been here yrs , there's even a boat at Thorpe right by BA's yard with no identification on it n that the same been like that for yrs .

If I were the OP I'd type my details into BA's toll checker and see what comes out it might be an administration problem and its not showing tolled , the rangers use the system but there's give BSS details too .

BA need to be checking better before issued these things , that's 2 occasions now and I know of other's .

 

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5 hours ago, Ricardo said:

problem being perspex on less its very tied looks like glass or it should do

A simple tap with the knuckle would have solved this difficult dilemma.

29 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

If it was a mistype in typing the number in the "system"

 How difficult can it be to type 1 x number and 1 x letter :default_dunce:

The Rangers have "allegedly" had training on this subject.

They made a mistake,  it happens.  It is compounded by a distinct lack of customer service.

 

All the time they get away without any penalty it will continue to happen.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

If I were the OP I'd type my details into BA's toll checker and see what comes out it might be an administration problem and its not showing tolled , the rangers use the system but there's give BSS details too .

My boats show as fully tolled from 29th March and obviously have BSS. I even have them insured.

Never had a problem before and I have seen the Rangers checking them.

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Well there you go! Be careful what you wish for!

Whilst this is the only broads forum I post on (oh and occasionally "Broadly Speaking")  I do read the others. Some of this post will apply to this forum but will include issues posted on others.

A craft was moored for an extended period on a 24 hr mooring. Some people were up in arms that the BA were doing nothing about it. The only way the BA could have made it clear that action was being taken would have been a highly visible "sticker". Only in that way would the criticism have stopped. Now it seems that the application of such a sticker is likely to do damage unless carefully applied to glass, something not always possible.

So, This is a case of "We want stickers"

Now lets consider the possibility of an 18ft fibreglass cruiser with Perspex windows and painted superstructure. Wherever the ranger sticks his notice, damage is likely when removing it, unless done really slowly and carefully, which equals a lot of work. Much better to deal with the matter without any visible evidence.

We demand the return of the visible Toll sticker so we can see who is taking the pee and not paying.

We demand the new stickerless system remains as the stickers damage the boats and it's none of our goddam business as to who tolls their boats. Not our job.

TAKE YOUR PICK!

I'm not getting into the 'innocent or guilty' argument as that's an entirely different argument. It has nothing to do with damage stickers may or may not do.

Toll stickers are misleading. Has the boat been tolled but the owner has not been to his craft so far this year?. Personally I'd go for the optional approach. Stickers sent to every owners address, but the owner has the choice of displaying or not. Those who display save the rangers from having to check electronically, thus time (money) saved, but those who can't or prefer not to, can still be checked. … just a thought.

However, as I said at the start, Be careful what you wish for. 

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The answer surely is,  if they can't fix it on without damage,  they shouldn't fix it on at all. 

There are enough chrome hand  rails that it could have gone on or even tucked it under the canopy.

It is never acceptable to damage someone's property just to issue a penalty notice.

 

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I agree Psychic, My view is...

Let the BA do their job. If we can't see signs of it being done, don't assume nothing is being done. If we think "It's one rule for some" is happening, it would be better to assume "There's probably more to this than we know." Better to presume innocence until overwhelming evidence to the contrary, than waste Rangers time with them having to explain things to people who's interest is "vexatious" to put it nicely.

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2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Well there you go! Be careful what you wish for!

Whilst this is the only broads forum I post on (oh and occasionally "Broadly Speaking")  I do read the others. Some of this post will apply to this forum but will include issues posted on others.

A craft was moored for an extended period on a 24 hr mooring. Some people were up in arms that the BA were doing nothing about it. The only way the BA could have made it clear that action was being taken would have been a highly visible "sticker". Only in that way would the criticism have stopped. Now it seems that the application of such a sticker is likely to do damage unless carefully applied to glass, something not always possible.

So, This is a case of "We want stickers"

Now lets consider the possibility of an 18ft fibreglass cruiser with Perspex windows and painted superstructure. Wherever the ranger sticks his notice, damage is likely when removing it, unless done really slowly and carefully, which equals a lot of work. Much better to deal with the matter without any visible evidence.

We demand the return of the visible Toll sticker so we can see who is taking the pee and not paying.

We demand the new stickerless system remains as the stickers damage the boats and it's none of our goddam business as to who tolls their boats. Not our job.

TAKE YOUR PICK!

I'm not getting into the 'innocent or guilty' argument as that's an entirely different argument. It has nothing to do with damage stickers may or may not do.

Toll stickers are misleading. Has the boat been tolled but the owner has not been to his craft so far this year?. Personally I'd go for the optional approach. Stickers sent to every owners address, but the owner has the choice of displaying or not. Those who display save the rangers from having to check electronically, thus time (money) saved, but those who can't or prefer not to, can still be checked. … just a thought.

However, as I said at the start, Be careful what you wish for. 

Stickers are not the only solution:

image.thumb.png.f9dd7860951e72dadfbd73a69157f44e.png

BA could have these custom printed in a bright colour so that they are highly visible (larger sizes are available) and attach them to the boat with a wire tie, there enough rails etc on a boat to make this attachment easy and damage free.

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Has Bill Stickers been prosecuted yet?

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4 minutes ago, Philosophical said:

Has Bill Stickers been prosecuted yet?

Bill Sticker is innocent. :default_biggrin:

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1 minute ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Bill Sticker is innocent. :default_biggrin:

Couldn't stick anything on him eh?

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All the glue is off but it has marked the window,  lets see what they say  when they eventually have the courtesy to contact me. :default_wacko:

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1 hour ago, psychicsurveyor said:

All the glue is off but it has marked the window,  lets see what they say  when they eventually have the courtesy to contact me. :default_wacko:

In my experience the head of ranger services is pretty approachable its whether they do something about it , n in my book they most certainly should and that includes not using these ridiculous sticky pouches , as your well aware now its extremely difficult to remove and on certain surfaces causes damage .

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5 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

All the glue is off but it has marked the window,  lets see what they say  when they eventually have the courtesy to contact me. :default_wacko:

The first thing i would do, is to phone them up and explain the situation, then saying any further contact WILL be billed for at £25 per letter / e-mail / phone call, plus the FULL cost of repairs, PLUS YOUR time for removing it in the first place, PLUS  any cost in time and fuel to take the boat to wherever the job is done and return to your home mooring, also not forgetting your personal loss of earnings in the process.  

A little while ago, a guy was on the tv for being successful in charging one of the energy companies around £3,000 for his time etc over a problem with his energy bill. The energy company refused to pay it, so he took them to court and won, resulting in the energy company not only having to settle his personal charges, minus the energy cost, but also they had to pay HIS court costs etc, as directed by the judge.

EVERYBODY has the rite to charge for their time and costs etc for any incidences like this, so if this happened on a regular basis, and EVERYBODY billed the BA for their time etc, maybe they will start looking at what they`re doing wrong.

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There's some great stuff called Vuplex available in spray tins.  It is a plastics finishing product; there is some citrus and some silicone, along with a number of other bits.  As it is a finishing spray, don't put it on anything which you want a sticker to stick to - it won't.  It fills micro-scratches and makes a huge different visually.

 

Just to mention again: "don't put it on anything which you want a sticker to stick to - it won't".  Not that I'm advocating preparedness or anything.... :) 

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4 working days and not a peep,  am I surprised, no, 

No email,  not a phone call.

I think I will be "having a discussion " on Monday when I get home.

Does anyone know the head of ranger services email address.

 

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The Ba are probably thinking there is no way this will end nicely for them and are ignoring the situation - that being you of course - in the hope that it'll just fade away.  Not replying or at least acknowledging your communication at best is ignorant.  Downright bad manners / rude and a slap in your face as being one of the 'Little people' is imho nearer the truth.  That from a public body responsible for our Broads too - Makes one somewhat irked to say the least

Griff

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Just sent an email to lucy.Burchnall@broads-authority.gov.uk

It is virtually impossible to find any contact email address for anyone.

I will be amazed if I get a response before I go home  at the weekend. 

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4 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

4 working days and not a peep,  am I surprised, no, 

No email,  not a phone call.

I think I will be "having a discussion " on Monday when I get home.

Does anyone know the head of ranger services email address.

 

I'm not surprised I too are still waiting for response even though I was told face to face by the head of ranger services that I would receive a update , I was under the impression that BA had a time limit in which to respond which I think is 14 days , in both cases mine and the one the subject of this thread seam to have a common theme ie assumption by a ranger , that needs to stop , I very much doubt anyone has been prosecuted on a guess that a offence has been committed , its high time BA started to treat those that pay a lot into the system in tolls etc with a dam sight more respect , starting with accuracy when it comes to issuing contravention notice's .

 

4 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

4 working days and not a peep,  am I surprised, no, 

No email,  not a phone call.

I think I will be "having a discussion " on Monday when I get home.

Does anyone know the head of ranger services email address.

 

 

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10 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

The Ba are probably thinking there is no way this will end nicely for them and are ignoring the situation - that being you of course - in the hope that it'll just fade away.  Not replying or at least acknowledging your communication at best is ignorant.  Downright bad manners / rude and a slap in your face as being one of the 'Little people' is imho nearer the truth.  That from a public body responsible for our Broads too - Makes one somewhat irked to say the least

Griff

I was taught that if unable to give an answer in a timely manner that it was courtesy to give a "sorry, don't have a full answer yet but we are still working on the issue" type reply.   

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If you search broads authority complaints it gives details of BA's procedure for both formal and informal complaints , not too n both cases that I they will reply in 10 days in detail , I'm personally well outside that even though HRS stated that would happen and that was a face to face conversation ! .

Nobody but BA wrote the complaint's procedure including the time scales for response , shame they don't operate by there own procedure ! Frankly I find it extremely rude and most likely done in hope that you and I in fact will shut up and go away , that's arrogant to the extreme .

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