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Posted

Well there's a surprise then - NOT, Erm I take it is as warm down on the rivers as it is up here in Gods country at the moment?

Imho - Currently not operational really means - it is operational but we are concerned that if we swing the bridge open IAW legal obligation to allow craft to navigate, we might not be able to close it properly again due the the hot weather, and of course our priority is our customers not our legal obligations as we don't give a toss about them

Now someone tell me I'm wrong on the above !

Griff

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Posted

No comment on this subject... after last time... :default_coat:

As the last comment about a comment of a comment of the subject of a comment from another comment about a comment of so called comment was commented and other comments was commented on the comment from the original comment.. So will my comment of the original be counted as a comment from the comment or a comment  from a New comment... 

Oh by the way the Bridge is buggered again... 

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Posted

I cant remember seeing the notice of it re-opening after the last time they said it wasnt working, I guess Haven bridge must be working again as they got the scout ship through it.

Posted

The whole bridge closed situation surley cannot keep going on like this, massively restricts many vessels to a limited cruising area. 

I bought my boat to the broads knowing my airdraft i paid my toll knowing my limits of navigation and was happy with this. 

But now im stuffed, yes i hear you, should of bought a low airdraft boat ect and you are correct i would enjoy a greater cruising area within the broads but i wanted a bit of both boads and sea.

What can be done to address the ageing infrasture short and long term. I suspect BA will loose a high number of the larger boats if they  dont force the issues with railways. Some  i guess will switch to lower airdrafts  i may do this myself some will leave to  coastal marinas.

Is this something the RYA legal side could help with.

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Posted

Size does not matter.

You have the right to navigate and in the case of Somerleyton bridge, that right goes back to the opening of the Lowestoft to Norwich navigation (via the New Cut) in 1843. That is a much earlier right than the later navigation, across Breydon Water and through Yarmouth.

The BA must be more forceful in insisting on this right.

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Posted

Ah it appears the scout boat is still waiting on Haven Bridge. lets hope they are charging the port authority for the tugs sitting idle waiting for the bridge to open.

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Size does not matter.

You have the right to navigate and in the case of Somerleyton bridge, that right goes back to the opening of the Lowestoft to Norwich navigation (via the New Cut) in 1843. That is a much earlier right than the later navigation, across Breydon Water and through Yarmouth.

The BA must be more forceful in insisting on this right.

BA have stated their position in the June briefing

"In terms of the Authority’s preferred option of replacement bridges, there is no funding available to Network Rail in their current planning period which runs from 2019 to 2025 and we have committed to work with them to support the case for investment in readiness for the next window of opportunity from 2025.

We will continue to monitor the performance of the bridges and have agreed to a further meeting with Network Rail’s engineers in August"

Posted

All very well but there is a difference between monitoring the performance (which we are all doing) and forcefully insisting on legal rights of navigation, which is one of the BA's statutory obligations.

 

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Posted

Why don't they paint the whole length of the rail it would only be a couple of galls of white paint and a couple of hours with a paint brush . John

Posted
37 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

All very well but there is a difference between monitoring the performance (which we are all doing) and forcefully insisting on legal rights of navigation, which is one of the BA's statutory obligations.

 

I'm not really sure what more the Broads Authority can do really. Yes, I suppose they could take 'Network Rail' before a judge, for not fulfilling their obligations to navigation, which of course doesn't come cheap. 'Network Rail' would say they're doing everything they possibly can to keep the 100+ years old bridges operational, in trying circumstances. But, if the bridges fail, while allowing a few people 'out for a boating jolly' to exercise their right of navigation. They could very well inconvenience hundreds more, who need to get to and from work, or perhaps to hospital appointments and any other number of important rail journeys. The judge might well decide, that keeping the railway open, was of more importance than holiday making boaters being delayed. And I'm sorry to say it, but I would probably agree with that decision too...

Posted
36 minutes ago, annv said:

Why don't they paint the whole length of the rail it would only be a couple of galls of white paint and a couple of hours with a paint brush . John

I wouldn't feel quite as cheated if network rail where seen to be testing solutions out to make the bridge work better so as to suit all users,  rail and boats 

Posted
56 minutes ago, kingfisher666 said:

But, if the bridges fail, while allowing a few people 'out for a boating jolly' to exercise their right of navigation. They could very well inconvenience hundreds more, who need to get to and from work, or perhaps to hospital appointments and any other number of important rail journeys. The judge might well decide, that keeping the railway open, was of more importance than holiday making boaters being delayed. And I'm sorry to say it, but I would probably agree with that decision too...

I agree with you (in principle!) but Network Rail and Railtrack before them, have gained an unfortunate reputation for blaming all sorts of failures on things that they say are beyond their control. For instance, we always have "the wrong kind of leaves" on the track. They are forgetting that in the days of steam, all undergrowth was kept clear of railway embankments and cuttings to prevent the risk of fire. Since then they have failed to maintain the railway property to this standard. We wouldn't have the wrong kind of leaves, if there were no trees on the trackside!

I just wonder if this, fairly new, problem of bridge expansion derives from something similar? Is it just a good excuse to blame something "beyond their control" so that they don't have to open the bridge?

I grew up on the Yare, in the days when coasters were plying their trade up to the port of Norwich every day. I don't remember any problem whatever in the opening of a swing bridge (unless a coaster had collided with it) so why is it a seemingly constant problem now?

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Posted
40 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I agree with you (in principle!) but Network Rail and Railtrack before them, have gained an unfortunate reputation for blaming all sorts of failures on things that they say are beyond their control. For instance, we always have "the wrong kind of leaves" on the track. They are forgetting that in the days of steam, all undergrowth was kept clear of railway embankments and cuttings to prevent the risk of fire. Since then they have failed to maintain the railway property to this standard. We wouldn't have the wrong kind of leaves, if there were no trees on the trackside!

I just wonder if this, fairly new, problem of bridge expansion derives from something similar? Is it just a good excuse to blame something "beyond their control" so that they don't have to open the bridge?

I grew up on the Yare, in the days when coasters were plying their trade up to the port of Norwich every day. I don't remember any problem whatever in the opening of a swing bridge (unless a coaster had collided with it) so why is it a seemingly constant problem now?

In those past days, the railways held a far more important place in the economy. They transported goods, food, coal, people and we couldn't do without them. Coasters bought raw materials in, for the factories of Norwich and took finished products away. But times have changed.

Without getting into the political 'whys and wherefores', because I realise that politics are not encouraged on these forums. But, It's no secret that our little corner of the country, comes low down in the pecking order at the moment, where rail infrastructure is concerned. Projects like 'Crossrail' and 'HS2' are a lot more sexier to those in power. Spending money on making sure a few ageing swingbridges in East Anglia are up to the job, isn't going to win any house points at Westminster. We'll just have to wait in the queue, until money becomes available. In the meantime, 'Network Rail' will fiddle around with what they have available and try to keep the bridges operational, as best they can. One day in the future, funds may become available to do the complete overhaul or replacement of the bridges, whichever is needed. Until that day, either the rail passengers or the boaters will continue to be inconvenienced on a regular basis. Neither side will be happy, but that's what happens, when you're low down on the 'pecking order'...

 

Posted
5 hours ago, ScrumpyCheddar said:

No comment on this subject... after last time... :default_coat:

As the last comment about a comment of a comment of the subject of a comment from another comment about a comment of so called comment was commented and other comments was commented on the comment from the original comment.. So will my comment of the original be counted as a comment from the comment or a comment  from a New comment... 

Oh by the way the Bridge is buggered again... 

Me to

Posted

The judge might well decide, that keeping the railway open, was of more importance than holiday making boaters being delayed.

I understand the thinking behind that statement, I honestly do

However as I understand it, are not Judges supposed to implement the law of the land?  Do judges now have the power to overturn laws set by the government in a single court sitting with clever lawyers putting arguments forward?  Sympathetic or not IMHO maybe a judge would come down sympathetically on the side of the rail users but is the very same judge not bound by the said laws of the land and therefore would be duty bound to instruct network rail to get the damn bridges maintained / upgraded for the benefit of all?  Just my thoughts

Griff

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Posted

Looking at the forecast for the week ahead I would predict there to be problems with the bridge opening all week! Probably won't be long before we hear that Reedham is also not opening!

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Posted
10 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

The judge might well decide, that keeping the railway open, was of more importance than holiday making boaters being delayed.

I understand the thinking behind that statement, I honestly do

However as I understand it, are not Judges supposed to implement the law of the land?  Do judges now have the power to overturn laws set by the government in a single court sitting with clever lawyers putting arguments forward?  Sympathetic or not IMHO maybe a judge would come down sympathetically on the side of the rail users but is the very same judge not bound by the said laws of the land and therefore would be duty bound to instruct network rail to get the damn bridges maintained / upgraded for the benefit of all?  Just my thoughts

Griff

I agree fully. The judges have to be impartial and uphold the laws as they stand. It is for parliament to overturn old laws, or laws judged to be out of date, and for the judges and legal system to enforce those laws whether they agree with them or not!

However, the only recompense would be for the judge to impose some kind of fine upon Network Rail and this is where he may show leniency. I believe the laws are so old anyway that the fines and reasonable costs that were allowed are probably laughable and far cheaper for Network Rail to be fined a few times, than actually spend more money sorting out the problems with the bridge.

Off course anyone bringing a case against Network Rail would have to fund the upfront costs. If it's the BA, then they have very shallow pockets compared to Network Rail, and we need to be mindful of who funds those pockets.

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Posted

I understand what everyone is saying, regarding upholding the law as it stands, but 'Network Rail' (a private company, wholly owned by the government) will probably have an obligation in law, to keep the railways open and running. When I say 'probably', I doubt that when the company was set up, it was told 'just do the best you can'. I'm pretty sure that there would have been some legislation involved, after all Whitehall is running alive with lawyers, who like to put in their 'two penneth'...

I may be absolutely wrong and all the Broads Authority has to do, is take 'Network Rail' before a court. The judge will tell Network Rail,  "You must make sure your bridges are in good working order, so that you allow holidaying boaters the right to navigate through them, immediately" and all will be fine. In real life, I think it might be a little more complicated and could end up costing the Broads Authority (and thus the 'toll payers') a tidy sum in lawyers fees. Sometimes, you have to be pragmatic and try to work with someone, for the best possible outcome on both sides...

Posted

Maybe we need to find out more about the summer rails?

 

If it could be showed to a judge that there was a relatively cheap option that worked for years and that Network Rail had stopped doing it just to save a few bob then that may be the way forward.

 

Network Rail seem to have fobbed off Dr P when he asked about them. Maybe there are people that actually fitted them that could be asked.

 

Do we know when they were last used?

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, kingfisher666 said:

Sometimes, you have to be pragmatic and try to work with someone, for the best possible outcome on both sides...

Which is exactly what I think the BA should be doing more forcefully.

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