Night Navigation.

[Guest]

Wouldn't be surprised if the second boat was from Freedom. One of theirs absolutely shot past Bramerton a few minutes before 10pm. Clue intended. 

There was space if they had needed it, though a bit of shuffling up would have been required. 

[KaptinKev]

21 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

What part of cruising after dark do some people not understand.

10pm and a hireboat comes past with someone shining a phone light from the front and tries to moor on the private No mooring area,  I directed them to the empty church fen mooring 5 minutes away.  They said they had run  out of daylight, amazing really its not like it gets dark at about the same time every night.

11pm another one comes past without even a phone light and gets directed to the same mooring.

Give it another hour and Church fen will be full.

It seems basic thinking doesn't become most of us and what to some is normal, it becomes rocket science to others.

[vanessan]

Facebook has a bit more info on this. One of the hire boats left Bramerton at 21.50 at speed. Was eventually tracked down and boat returned to hire yard and caution issued. Apparently the hirer went on to ‘threaten and attack’ the hire yard owner. I think we can do without these sort of hirers thank you. 

[dnks34]

Sounds like it could be “ive paid so i will do as I like” attitude.  

Security Deposit Security Deposit Security Deposit.......

[Smoggy]

I think freedom do use a security deposit rather cdw.

[Guest]

I would be more than happy to pay a returnable security deposit. During the times when that was how most hire companies operated, I never lost a security deposit. But, I think most hire companies find the non-returnable damage waiver a more profitable system, for dealing with the inevitable 'little scrapes' and even the larger damage claims that occur.

You'll always get the odd 'couldn't give a $h!t' idiots, it doesn't matter if they holiday on the Norfolk Broads, Ibiza or Blackpool pleasure beach. Having been to one or two of Europe's 'flesh pot' resorts (in my youth) and seen what our fellow 'Brits' get up to, the Norfolk Broads really is very tame and trouble free in comparison...

[Guest]

3 hours ago, kingfisher666 said:

I would be more than happy to pay a returnable security deposit. During the times when that was how most hire companies operated, I never lost a security deposit. But, I think most hire companies find the non-returnable damage waiver a more profitable system, for dealing with the inevitable 'little scrapes' and even the larger damage claims that occur.

You'll always get the odd 'couldn't give a $h!t' idiots, it doesn't matter if they holiday on the Norfolk Broads, Ibiza or Blackpool pleasure beach. Having been to one or two of Europe's 'flesh pot' resorts (in my youth) and seen what our fellow 'Brits' get up to, the Norfolk Broads really is very tame and trouble free in comparison...

I would be more than happy to pay a returnable security deposit. During the times when that was how most hire companies operated, I never lost a security deposit.

Sadly the thought processes and actions of reasonable people is the not the same as the  'couldn't give a $h!t' idiots. 

[MauriceMynah]

Oh dear, I'm going to poke a hornets nest here.

I wanted to change my screen name to "confused of Harlow" for this post. YES I know that hire boats are not allowed to navigate after dark (or sunset as I believe the rules state)  BUT... given that whenever I've talked of navigational headlamp (spot lights bar lights call them what you will) I am met with a barrage of comments saying that night vision is good enough to navigate by.

Now I read that these hirers tried using mobile phones as lights and that these were not bright enough to do any good (the phones, not the hirers... well either actually).

P & S lights are for others to see you, not for you to see by so they are not really relevant.

 

Now, I honestly wish to be corrected here if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the rules for lights are lifted straight off the international sea regs (whatever they're correctly called) and in reality are not that suitable as broads regs.

[MBA Marine]

20 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Oh dear, I'm going to poke a hornets nest here.

I wanted to change my screen name to "confused of Harlow" for this post. YES I know that hire boats are not allowed to navigate after dark (or sunset as I believe the rules state)  BUT... given that whenever I've talked of navigational headlamp (spot lights bar lights call them what you will) I am met with a barrage of comments saying that night vision is good enough to navigate by.

Now I read that these hirers tried using mobile phones as lights and that these were not bright enough to do any good (the phones, not the hirers... well either actually).

P & S lights are for others to see you, not for you to see by so they are not really relevant.

 

Now, I honestly wish to be corrected here if I'm wrong but as I understand it, the rules for lights are lifted straight off the international sea regs (whatever they're correctly called) and in reality are not that suitable as broads regs.

Good moonlight is far better than a poor localised light, Mrs A and I walked back home from a pub last weekend, was about 1.5miles of quiet Norfolk lanes, and around 11pm, Mrs A gets her all swinging fancy pants fruit based gadget phone out to 'light the way' brilliant all I can see is 2m in front of me and everything else is dark,  I suggests she turns the extension to her hand off and let her eyes adjust and open her ears to listen out for any traffic that might approach (non did), after about 20 seconds we could see up the road and across the fields.  

Still does not change the fact that hirers are not permitted to cruise after dark regardless of their vision or lack of.

[Vaughan]

Several different questions there!

Yes the light rules follow international ones, adopted by BA byelaws I believe.

Yes, nav lights are for others to see you and their colour, relative position and correct arc will tell another boat in what direction you are going. If the other boat knows how to interpret them correctly!

I have always preferred to navigate without spotlights or other illumination, largely because it destroys your own night vision as well as that of any others on the river.

The glow from your own nav lights should give you easily enough light to see the bank, and get off with a line, when you are mooring up.

[MauriceMynah]

16 minutes ago, MBA Marine said:

Good moonlight is far better than a poor localised light, Mrs A and I walked back home from a pub last weekend, was about 1.5miles of quiet Norfolk lanes, and around 11pm, Mrs A gets her all swinging fancy pants fruit based gadget phone out to 'light the way' brilliant all I can see is 2m in front of me and everything else is dark,  I suggests she turns the extension to her hand off and let her eyes adjust and open her ears to listen out for any traffic that might approach (non did), after about 20 seconds we could see up the road and across the fields.  

Still does not change the fact that hirers are not permitted to cruise after dark regardless of their vision or lack of.

Fully agree Mark and I wasn't in any way supporting them doing so,

[Meantime]

I think there are a number of factors that relate to night navigation on The Broads that all need to be taken into account.

Anything on the move really needs to display the correct lights so it can be easily identified by any other boat on the move.

Spotlights, light bars etc ruin the night vision of anyone they come towards and in my opinion are a danger. I had the unpleasant experience of a boat heading downriver towards Horning last year, which had more lights than Blackpool Tower, and I honestly couldn't see a thing. I had to come to a stop while the selfish so and so carried on cruising. Now this is the thing, you may feel you need bright lights for your safety, but you ARE endangering others. It is dangerous for others and that is what the regs take into account.

Moonlight gives more than enough light to see by. Even on a cloudy night there is enough ambient light to see by. Give it a little while and you will be surprised how far you can see at night.

If vision is limited, then limit your speed to match how far you can see.

But, finally, we are pleasure boaters. Night navigation should be a pleasure and NOT a necessity! I would never rely on being able to get from A to B during the night. My plans to night navigate can and do change upon the weather conditions, light levels, mist, rain etc. When the conditions are right I will navigate at night and thoroughly enjoy it, and do so safely without compromising mine, or anybody else's safety. Unless I feel confident in being able to do that, I won't do it. 

[grendel]

as an astronomer, I can state quite categorically that it takes about 30 minutes for good night vision to form, it takes about half a second to destroy that night vision.

you wonder why so many salty sea dogs and pirates wore an eye patch, one reason was to preserve night vision in one eye when you had to go in a lighted area, if you were a lookout at night, you would need that dark adapted vision to see any problems. many astronomers use the same thing, an eye patch over their observing eye to keep out stray car headlights. we have a rule at our observing site that as you arrive you drop down to side lights to get onto the field and park, brake lights being red are not so much of a problem.

I usually have no problem seeing where I am - even on a moonless night once my eyes have adapted.

I used to have a friend who lived in the outback of australia that used to mix concrete by starlight, and had no problems at all- his nearest street light was outside the bar in the local town - 15 miles away.

[Cal]

We love night time cruising and as others have quite rightly pointed out even on the cloudiest of nights there is no need for lights other then the correct navigation lights. It is surprising just how far you can see with your own night vision alone.

But it does only take one idiot with a spot light aimed in the wrong place to completely ruin your night vision. 

The rules regarding the navigation of hire boats at night are there for very good reason.

[Vaughan]

10 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

But, finally, we are pleasure boaters. Night navigation should be a pleasure and NOT a necessity! I would never rely on being able to get from A to B during the night. My plans to night navigate can and do change upon the weather conditions, light levels, mist, rain etc. When the conditions are right I will navigate at night and thoroughly enjoy it, and do so safely without compromising mine, or anybody else's safety. Unless I feel confident in being able to do that, I won't do it. 

Couldn't agree more!

[MauriceMynah]

ECIPA, In fairness there is a counter point there, If I am coming towards you with a headlamp switched on, and you too have a headlamp on, then we can both see, just as motorists do every time they go out after dark. Neither of us is being selfish. Yet if you wish to navigate by moonlight and your natural night site, you would seem prefer it if either I did the same., or stayed moored up. I would have to play by "your rules"

Could I also ask if night vision is detailed enough on an overcast moonless night to see the navigation posts and buoys on Hickling broad? to get from say the Pleasure boat inn to Catfield staithe?

25 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

But, finally, we are pleasure boaters. Night navigation should be a pleasure and NOT a necessity! I would never rely on being able to get from A to B during the night. My plans to night navigate can and do change upon the weather conditions, light levels, mist, rain etc

Sorry, I disagree with that. The idea of cruising somewhere and not being reliant on mother nature is part of MY pleasure.

[vanessan]

10 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Could I also ask if night vision is detailed enough on an overcast moonless night to see the navigation posts and buoys on Hickling broad? to get from say the Pleasure boat inn to Catfield staithe?

Probably depends on how much of the Pleasure Boat Inn’s hospitality you have enjoyed. 

[MauriceMynah]

When I try to steer between two posts and they seem to be getting closer to both my bows I give up and drop my mudweights.

Me? A danger? Nah, never!!!

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Probably depends on how much of the Pleasure Boat Inn’s hospitality you have enjoyed. 

You will know that you did maybe over indulge on the Inn's hospitality if there are a lot more posts on the way back than there were going.

[Meantime]

38 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

ECIPA, In fairness there is a counter point there, If I am coming towards you with a headlamp switched on, and you too have a headlamp on, then we can both see, just as motorists do every time they go out after dark. Neither of us is being selfish. Yet if you wish to navigate by moonlight and your natural night site, you would seem prefer it if either I did the same., or stayed moored up. I would have to play by "your rules"

Could I also ask if night vision is detailed enough on an overcast moonless night to see the navigation posts and buoys on Hickling broad? to get from say the Pleasure boat inn to Catfield staithe?

Sorry, I disagree with that. The idea of cruising somewhere and not being reliant on mother nature is part of MY pleasure. 

We will probably end up having to agree to disagree, but I'll try and answer your points.

If I was cruising with a bright spotlight on, it will brighten my near field of vision and yes, I may end up being able to see a little better. However the moment you come towards me with a bright spotlight then I will loose sight of anything beyond you and your bright light. As you get closer I will be able to see less and less further into the distance until you pass me and my own spotlight shows me the way ahead again. Try taking a picture of someone with the sun behind them, compared with taking one with the sun in front of them. Comparisons are often made with night time driving, but to be honest it is far from the same thing. On busy roads there may be streetlights or other ambient light. On busy roads there will be a stream of lights coming towards you which light up the area behind the first car approaching you so you don't have the blind area behind the first bright headlight. The closest comparison I would have is to driving a country road with no street lights. Most people would drive with main beam on, but would then dip that if another car approaches so as not to dazzle them. Due to the speeds involved you need to be able to see that much further ahead. On the slower speeds on the river you do not need to see so far in advance. I have had instances on the road where a car has not dipped it's headlight on a country road, and that is dangerous. To me that is akin to using spotlights on the river. I would add that your use of playing by "your rules" is a little unfair! They are not my rules, but the byelaws, which I fully appreciate and support because it adds to mine and others safety if everyone plays by the same byelaw rules. 

I cannot answer your question about Hickling because I don't often go beyond Potter bridge but have successfully night navigated Breydon Water and Barton in the dark with no issues at all. I have also night navigated all the following, in the right conditions, with no issues;

Geldeston to Beccles.

Norwich to Bramerton.

Reedham to Burgh Castle.

Great Yarmouth to Berney Arms.

Breydon Water to Boundary Farm.

Potter Bridge to South Walsham Broad.

Coltishall to Wroxham.

Wroxham to Ranworth Broad.

Sutton staithe to Barton Broad.

Neatishead to South Walsham Broad.

With regards your last point, I have to disagree with that to a large part. Poor night time conditions are just one of the things that mother nature can throw at us which may spoil our intended cruise. If I'm solo cruising and I'm being blown onto a bank very hard by the wind then I won't attempt to depart. Likewise I plan ahead and on the very tidal reaches make sure that I can time an arrival at slack water, or so I can moor against the current on my port side as it's easier and safer. Again if solo cruising it is easier if the roof is down to aid mooring and departing. If the heavens open then I will delay my departure or carry on cruising rather than moor up or circle the mooring waiting for a break in the clouds. Easter 2017 I had crew on board and the rain and wind was such that we delayed our departure from The Bridge at Acle by about four hours, and that was in full daylight.

Can I ask if your not wanting to be reliant on Mother Nature would mean that you would cast off in a thunderstorm or gale force 8 wind of a night time? I'm suspecting not, I know I wouldn't, and to me waiting for the right light conditions is just another of the factors to take into account when night navigating.

[WherryNice]

I wholehearted agree with the 'use your night vision rather than spotlight' theory right up until the upper reaches of the Ant where the trees really close in, the river narrows with added sticky out bits and make an extra light scource very important. However I try to only use it when really needed, for as short a time as possible and not aimed at other boats...

[TheQ]

I've spent many hours out there in the dark sailing around the 3 rivers course, I've never used a torch / lights nor felt the need to.

The only time I've ever had a problem was on Hickling broad when the fog was so thick you couldn't see one telegraph pole to the next. In that Case a torch / lights would have made it worse .

[MauriceMynah]

42 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

We will probably end up having to agree to disagree,

I rather think we shall EC, but there are a few points where we sort of agree. I won't "not navigate" if the light is such that I can't see. You will not navigate under those conditions, and I assume that others who spurn the headlight would also not be navigating. We are all safe, I am moving and you are not, each by our own choice.

If I am in suitable waters and there's moonlight, I shall try your method... but make no promises to stick to it :)

Mr Q sir, it's tree lined narrow waters where I believe I need light, not the wide reeded areas where the three rivers take place..

[Timbo]

Mr Maurice Mynah Sir...yew do knows if I'm a fishin, and yews shine that light on me I will be demanding to know 'what you be doing mucking about in the dark instead of sitting having a tipple or nine with me and putting the world to rights'?

[MauriceMynah]

Well I's recons if I's to shoine a loight on yew I'll know whart yew be doin in tha dark, an oid best be lookin fer me own rod 'n joion yew, wiv a glass or twoooo.