Passing Through Gt Yarmouth

[neilp1962]

Morning all

I'd like to ask opinions from you good folk about a subject that at first seems straight-forward and obvious, but hear me out and chip in if you've a mind to.

We're on Fair Commodore 1 for a week starting Friday 3rd August which has an air-draft with screens down etc of 8 foot. I'm heading south for the first half of the week, going through Yarmouth on Saturday 4th, returning north Tuesday 7th. Published LSW at Yarmouth is 10.09am on Saturday and 13.33pm Tuesday and I know that LSW is the ideal time to go through and I know the reasons why, but I'm turning the idea of going through a bit earlier in my mind because of the improved planning options that would create. Bridge height won't be a problem as the times I'm thinking of are much closer to LW than HW and fuel economy fighting tides doesn't overly concern me (not after what the boat hire is costing) although the power available in a hire craft does a bit.

What would the expected issues be with going south at low water (9am) on the Saturday instead of LSW an hour later? In particular maintaining steerage if the ebb tide is strong, and I've never pushed the tide over Breydon so how bad is that and do hire boats cope? I've been over Breydon twice (each way) without issues but previously only at LSW.

Plan to return on Tuesday 7th at 11am, two and a half hours before LSW at Yarmouth. Again bridge height isn't an issue but what about the ebb tide and power available? Does the tide through Yarmouth ebb gently then increase as you get closer to LW, or should I expect something akin to a torrent from HW to LSW?

I think I'm asking if it's acceptable to do this rather than possible, given that I do know the recommendations for safe passage, but do people transit Yarmouth outside of LSW (bridge height permitting) without issues or will I get shouted at by the GY rangers and tutted at by bystanders?

 

Cheers, and give us a wave if you see us

[annv]

No issues rearly except height clearance i go through when convenient not necessarily low water its a bit of a drag going against the current across Braydon, when going down the Bure with the Tide you have Right of way with on coming boats you do have to watch out for hirers trying to moor but they usually do this at low water and they will be on your Port side. try to keep to left hand sideish as you approach the bend yust before the Yacht station there is a sharpish turn as you come up to the boatyard on your right.John

[Cal]

We have never gone across at LW and have always just gone across when it has suited us, bridge heights permitting of course.

Not a problem punching the tide in our own boat but it is a bit of a long slog in the hire boats, though they will do it with just more slowly.

[Vaughan]

26 minutes ago, annv said:

when going down the Bure with the Tide you have Right of way with on coming boats

That's a new one on me!

 

[Cal]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

That's a new one on me!

 

Boat going with the tide always has right of way at bridges.

[neilp1962]

Thanks, I've read that right of way goes to the boat that's traveling with the tide at bridges now you mention it, I think when reading about Ludham Bridge. That was a concern that went hand-in-hand with the steerage thing going under the red arrows. I just hope there's not a hirer who doesn't know this going through the opposite way at the same time because I hope to be right in the middle of the arrows.

[Broads01]

I think there's a balance to be drawn between being fixed on slack water time on the one hand and going through any old time on the other. My (admittedly limited) experience of going south on the ebb is it can feel a bit scary as the strong tide reduces your control as it pulls you forwards. Coming north, I came through similarly early in a hire boat and it was OKish although it tested my patience crawling past the Yacht Station at full throttle but achieving less than walking pace. 

[Cal]

We don't intend cutting it this fine this year 

[Vaughan]

53 minutes ago, Cal said:

Boat going with the tide always has right of way at bridges.

You said "when going down the Bure with the tide".

I have heard of such a rule at certain bridges on commercial waterways in Europe and in the US but on the Broads? Ludham Bridge has no particular tidal current, which is why all it says on the bridge is "sound horn". The bridges at Yarmouth have channels wide enough for vessels to pass each other. If they are navigating with due caution.

30 minutes ago, neilp1962 said:

I just hope there's not a hirer who doesn't know this going through the opposite way at the same time because I hope to be right in the middle of the arrows.

So you intend to come down through Yarmouth, hours early, with the full ebb under you, way outside the recommended times for safe navigation and to make up for the lack of control of your boat, you are just going to charge through the centre of the bridge spans, claiming that you have "right of way". I would call that reckless.

I wonder what NBD would call it, if you hit something?

[neilp1962]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

You said "when going down the Bure with the tide".

I have heard of such a rule at certain bridges on commercial waterways in Europe and in the US but on the Broads? Ludham Bridge has no particular tidal current, which is why all it says on the bridge is "sound horn". The bridges at Yarmouth have channels wide enough for vessels to pass each other. If they are navigating with due caution.

So you intend to come down through Yarmouth, hours early, with the full ebb under you, way outside the recommended times for safe navigation and to make up for the lack of control of your boat, you are just going to charge through the centre of the bridge spans, claiming that have "right of way". I would call that reckless.

I wonder what NBD would call it, if you hit something?

Maybe I should have put a smiley about the 'between the arrows' bit, I'm still just asking advice. I'm absolutely aware of the recommended method having done it that way twice before, and the fact I'm asking about the cons of doing it differently having recognised and considered the possible dangers should tell you I'm trying not to be reckless. Absolute opposite of reckless I'd say. I wanted the views of people who have experience in this as part of my risk assessment, if that includes you then I'd love to hear how it went.

[Meantime]

Byelaw 31 for The Broads relates to power vessels approaching Bends or Bridges. The vessel going against the current shall if necessary to avoid a collision ease the speed or stop the vessel to allow any vessel navigating with the current or tidal flow to pass.

However, and its a big however, I don't know how many private boats are fully aware of that byelaw, let alone how many hire boaters would have read all the byelaws, therefore not a good idea to rely on having right of way IMHO. I know of one case where some one who really should have known better didn't give way to me at a bridge and I had cause to ring their employers so don't ever rely on it.

With regards crossing Breydon outside of slack water, it can be done, will cost more fuel, but you do need to be confident of bridge clearance especially if travelling down The Bure with the tide underneath you. If you get it wrong it is very hard to turn before the bridges and equally as hard to stop and moor with the current behind you. Ring ahead and check with the yacht station to make sure you have the clearance. There is a short 2hr emergency mooring about 3 miles before Yarmouth. I would stop and wait there is in any doubt rather than approach Yarmouth and find you don't have the clearance.

Providing you have the bridge clearance then pushing against the current in either direction is possible. You will have enough power, but will use more fuel and to be honest if going round ahead of low slack water to gain time, you will probably loose a lot of that time in going slower pushing the tide. I do it only if early into Yarmouth rather than moor up. I then tend to just cruise along on tick over until the tide has changed and catches me up. Off course any time advantage is then lost.

[Guest]

Last time I went through Yarmouth heading south was late December 2016, it was just as your scenario with the tide still ebbing down the Bure, It was ok but we were the only boat on the river, and the yacht station was empty, not sure I would choose to do it in season as you really do end up going through the bridges at quite a pace to maintain good steerage. The subsequent crossing of Breydon was ok but slow, and we then moored up at the Berney and waited for the tide to turn and give us an easy run up the Yare 

[Matt]

We have come down the Bure and passed through Yarmouth 2 hours prior to Low Water. Biggest issue as mentioned above is you get carried along pretty quickly!
Neutral was 5mph through the Yacht Station so you need some throttle to maintain steerage.

All went okay although if a boat had come of the Yacht Station moorings infront of us it might have been a problem.

Obviously up to the skipper to make this decisions but we were by far the only boat passing through.


Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Vaughan]

BA bye-laws (1991) are based on international rules as they apply to confined waters or channels and have been adopted for the Broads but don't necessarily apply in practice!

BA byelaws do not apply to Yarmouth Yacht Station. They commence upstream of the Port of Yarmouth Marina on the Bure and after the upstream end of Breydon Water.

Bye law 31 states:

The master of a power driven vessel navigating against the current or tidal flow shall, if necessary to avoid the risk of collision, ease the speed of or stop the vessel on approaching or rounding a bend or approaching a bridge to allow any vessel navigating with the current to pass clear. (my underlining).

This relates - like so many of these rules - to navigating with caution. It does not state that a vessel going down the Bure with the tide has priority.

This rule is designed for situations where there may be large vessels whose manoeuvring is restricted in a narrow channel but this is not what we are talking about. Hire cruisers are restricted (by another law) to 15 metres in length and should have no problem in passing each other on the Bure. There are bends on the Ant where you naturally have to approach  with caution but this has nothing to do with the tidal flow!

Let's look at rule 32 :

The master of a vessel passing through a bridge shall navigate the vessel at the lowest possible speed consistent with safety.

In Yarmouth, surely this means choosing the right time of the tide so that you can maintain safe steerage way and stop if needed. Going though GYYS (in August) with the ebb tide under you is potentially unsafe.

Why not go through at the times which have always been recommended, for comfortable cruising, fuel economy, ease of handling the boat, and for your own safety? You are on holiday, after all. 

 

 

[Cal]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

BA bye-laws (1991) are based on international rules as they apply to confined waters or channels and have been adopted for the Broads but don't necessarily apply in practice!

BA byelaws do not apply to Yarmouth Yacht Station. They commence upstream of the Port of Yarmouth Marina on the Bure and after the upstream end of Breydon Water.

Bye law 31 states:

The master of a power driven vessel navigating against the current or tidal flow shall, if necessary to avoid the risk of collision, ease the speed of or stop the vessel on approaching or rounding a bend or approaching a bridge to allow any vessel navigating with the current to pass clear. (my underlining).

This relates - like so many of these rules - to navigating with caution. It does not state that a vessel going down the Bure with the tide has priority.

This rule is designed for situations where there may be large vessels whose manoeuvring is restricted in a narrow channel but this is not what we are talking about. Hire cruisers are restricted (by another law) to 15 metres in length and should have no problem in passing each other on the Bure. There are bends on the Ant where you naturally have to approach a with caution but this has nothing to do with the tidal flow!

Let's look at rule 32 :

The master of a vessel passing through a bridge shall navigate the vessel at the lowest possible speed consistent with safety.

In Yarmouth, surely this means choosing the right time of the tide so that you can maintain safe steerage way and stop if needed. Going though GYYS (in August) with the ebb tide under you is potentially unsafe.

Why not go through at the times which have always been recommended, for comfortable cruising, fuel economy, ease of handling the boat, and for your own safety? You are on holiday, after all. 

 

 

"Rule" 23 makes no mention of State of tide though. If it was intended to restrict the time of the tide you can travel through the bridges it would state x hours before/after low water.

The lowest possible speed consistent with safety is a wide ranging statement. It can be anything from 1 knot if you are against the tide to 6 or 7 knots to maintain steerage if you are with it.

We have in the past turned into the tide when we have been unsure if we will fit under a bridge (Selby when it was unable to swing) and crept backwards to the bridge giving us the option of making a controlled exit if it looked like it wouldn't fit.

Perhaps not ideal in a less manoverable boat.

[neilp1962]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In Yarouth, surely this means choosing the right time of the tide so that you can maintain safe steerage way and stop if needed. Going though GYYS (in August) with the ebb tide under you is potentially unsafe.

That's the bit I've been trying to get my head around and clarify. Believe it or not I take the hiring of a boat and the safety of everyone on and off the boat that I have an impact on very seriously, hence the initial post asking questions. That pretty much takes care of going south, I very much like the idea of going through at LSW now. Thanks everyone, reckless my eye, I have loads of reck

Heading north now....First time I came south I arrived at the yacht Station half way between High and low water, mainly due to not knowing any better although I had previously checked bridge heights and I was fine. Plan was to go through the bridges, turn around and come back and moor against the tide.There was so little current that as I was passing the rangers asked if I wanted to moor, then told me not to bother turning around downstream but to just pass them the bow ropes and let the gentle tide turn me around. I hardly even noticed the stern gently nudging the quay the current was so slight. So can I expect at maybe 3 hours before LSW an easier passage through the bridges and up the Bure than 1 hour before or was that day unusual?

[grendel]

I was about to ask if it would be safer to turn and reverse through the bridge (with the engine running forward, but at a slower speed than the tide). you would at least have steerage.

[annv]

I do tend if going up stream through Yarmouth like to go against the tide this gives more control when passing the yacht station if you have to keep to close to right if oncoming boats are in the middle this is slower but more control and you can hold stationary if someone is mooring up, then moor at the windmill and wait for tide to change grab a ice cream feed the donkeys and get a paper ect.John

[JennyMorgan]

6 hours ago, Cal said:

Boat going with the tide always has right of way at bridges.

New one on me too although I can see the advantages for sailing boats shooting a bridge with a following tide. 

[JennyMorgan]

Having now looked I agree that Bye Law 31 is probably valid. The Broads Act has, if I understand things correctly, brought the Lower Bure & Breydon under the BA's jurisdiction thus the Byelaw applies.

3 hours ago, Cal said:

Bye law 31 states:

The master of a power driven vessel navigating against the current or tidal flow shall, if necessary to avoid the risk of collision, ease the speed of or stop the vessel on approaching or rounding a bend or approaching a bridge to allow any vessel navigating with the current to pass clear.

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Of course, if you hired a boat that was able to navigate all bridges at AHWS, this would all have been irrellavent?.  If i had a fiver for everyone who has had this same scenario, i`d be able to afford a boat of my own.  

[neilp1962]

2 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

Of course, if you hired a boat that was able to navigate all bridges at AHWS, this would all have been irrellavent?.  If i had a fiver for everyone who has had this same scenario, i`d be able to afford a boat of my own.  

I'm not sure what AHWS is, I assume it's average height something or other so do you mean I should have hired a boat that would fit under the bridges at high tide? If so you're way off the mark. This issue is whether I wait for low slack water or go through earlier, ie when the river is still ebbing and so bridge clearance would be less. Clearance isn't the issue here, when I want to go through I'll have nearly 10' available and I'll need 8'. My query was about boat control in a fast moving ebb tide and would a hire boat have enough power to punch the tide going the other way. What sort of boat could you get for everyone having this scenario?

[Meantime]

56 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Having now looked I agree that Bye Law 31 is probably valid. The Broads Act has, if I understand things correctly, brought the Lower Bure & Breydon under the BA's jurisdiction thus the Byelaw applies.

 

Section 35 of The Broads Act 2009 is the relevant section.

As from the appointed day Breydon Water and the Lower Bure shall form part
of the navigation area for all purposes and accordingly—
(a) the 1988 Act and this Act, and any byelaws made or directions given
under the 1988 Act, shall apply to Breydon Water and the Lower Bure
as they apply to the navigation area as defined in the 1988 Act;
(b) the definition of the Haven in section 25 of the 1988 Act shall have effect
subject to this section;
(c) the Great Yarmouth Port Authority Acts and Orders 1866 to 2005 and
any byelaws made thereunder shall not apply to Breydon Water and the
Lower Bure.

There's more and the same is also true for the New Cut.

So Byelaw 31 very much applies to the two bridges across the Lower Bure, but I as I already said, I wouldn't bank on everyone knowing whether they have to give way or not.

The anomaly in all this is that whilst the BA made preparations and included in the 2009 act for the lower Bure and Breydon Water being passed into their control at some point in time, thus the byelaws from 1988 stand true for the area, no thought was given to the speed limits. It is true to say that the old executive area that Vaughan quoted is broken down into very specific parts under the speed byelaws and a prescribed speed limit applies to each part. However there was no additions made to the speed byelaws, or mention made in the 2009 act for speed limits in the areas that eventually passed into the BA control. That leaves the situation where either the old port limit of 7 knots still applies, or technically there is no BA speed limit. Off course other byelaws such as wash and due care and attention etc, sort of cover it.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

The anomaly in all this is that whilst the BA made preparations and included in the 2009 act for the lower Bure and Breydon Water being passed into their control at some point in time, thus the byelaws from 1988 stand true for the area, no thought was given to the speed limits. It is true to say that the old executive area that Vaughan quoted is broken down into very specific parts under the speed byelaws and a prescribed speed limit applies to each part. However there was no additions made to the speed byelaws, or mention made in the 2009 act for speed limits in the areas that eventually passed into the BA control. That leaves the situation where either the old port limit of 7 knots still applies, or technically there is no BA speed limit. Off course other byelaws such as wash and due care and attention etc, sort of cover it.

Thought was given to speed limits, that being that on Breydon they would not apply. Had they been applied then various bodies had threatened to oppose and petition against the Broads Bill and quite possibly the Bill would have failed thus the Authority bowed to demands from such as water-skiers and jet-skiers. 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

1 hour ago, neilp1962 said:

I'm not sure what AHWS is, I assume it's average height something or other so do you mean I should have hired a boat that would fit under the bridges at high tide? If so you're way off the mark. This issue is whether I wait for low slack water or go through earlier, ie when the river is still ebbing and so bridge clearance would be less. Clearance isn't the issue here, when I want to go through I'll have nearly 10' available and I'll need 8'. My query was about boat control in a fast moving ebb tide and would a hire boat have enough power to punch the tide going the other way. What sort of boat could you get for everyone having this scenario?

Hi neilp,

AHWS stands for "Average High Water Standings", and my comment meant that if you hired a boat that was designed and built to go under ALL of Broadlands bridges at HIGH tide (AHWS), you WON`T have any problems, with the exception of Potter Heigham old road bridge. That`s not just low, it`s also narrow too, making going under rather difficult, especially for the inexperienced helmsman.   

And i repeat, that`s AVERAGE high water, which does`nt include high water springs.

As for a boat with enough power, ALL broads hire boats have enough power to punch the tides, even springs, it just means you will go a lot slower, therefore taking much longer, and using a heck of a lot more fuel. It`s doable, but NOT adviseable, as it will be very easy to misjudge the amount of time (and fuel?) to get to somewhere like Loddon say, punching a hard Yare tide. It`s also, as others have said, necessary to keep power on coming down with the tide to maintain steerage way.  Many years ago, we were on an Alpha 42 flat top turning up the Bure, against the tide, faced with a sideways on sedan cruiser coming down the Bure, and struggling to get her turned. We missed her by an inch. but to applause from a watching boat at the Yacht station.