What Might We Reasonably Expect Of Nbn?

[Vaughan]

56 minutes ago, grendel said:

Vaughan, Facebook and the forum are separate entities, sharing a common name, run by the same moderators and staff, and soon facebook will be run under the same TOS as we use here.

In which case I have great respect for the moderators but I don't envy them their job if they are going to have to try and maintain control there. I suggest we may not for long, be called different forms of the same thing. I have already been called a vulgar word on here by a Facebook - type poster, which I won't repeat as it was immediately removed by the mods. And yet I see it seems to be a word in common and accepted usage in our Facebook group. I greatly fear that this will not be a marriage made in Heaven.

Anyway, I have given my opinion but I don't get the feeling I am helping. The mainstream seems to be for an exiting and united future. I hope the future will not show this to have been an awful mistake but there is nothing I can do about that.

This whole thing has started to make me physically depressed so It is better that I stay out of these discussions, and talk to Robin about how to adjust his Morse cables, rather than buy new ones!

 

[ChrisB]

48 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In which case I have great respect for the moderators but I don't envy them their job if they are going to have to try and maintain control there. I suggest we may not for long, be called different forms of the same thing. I have already been called a vulgar word on here by a Facebook - type poster, which I won't repeat as it was immediately removed by the mods. And yet I see it seems to be a word in common and accepted usage in our Facebook group. I greatly fear that this will not be a marriage made in Heaven.

Anyway, I have given my opinion but I don't get the feeling I am helping. The mainstream seems to be for an exiting and united future. I hope the future will not show this to have been an awful mistake but there is nothing I can do about that.

This whole thing has started to make me physically depressed so It is better that I stay out of these discussions, and talk to Robin about how to adjust his Morse cables, rather than buy new ones!

 

I must admit to a similar feeling. At the first sign of vulgarity or aggession, however fast it is stamped on I will ask for my membership to be removed.

[Meantime]

I think it's also fair to say that due to the differences in the two platforms, the content on the Facebook group, any Facebook group tends to be a bit more short, sharp and to the point. Very rare to see posts more than one paragraph in length let alone two. The content also seems to be a little more like yesterday's fish and chip paper. Here today, gone tomorrow.

Those that prefer the forum, also probably appreciate the more in depth discussions we have on the forum, and the ability to be able to search easier for historical threads etc. I sometimes see a post on Facebook and later on the same day spend ten minutes trying to find it again.

 

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

Facebook and the forum are separate entities, sharing a common name, run by the same moderators and staff, and soon facebook will be run under the same TOS as we use here. 

That can only be a good thing but, if the moderators are as strict on fb as they are on here, there could be an exodus of users from the NBN group. It seems at the moment that almost anything goes on fb in general, bad language, trolling, verbal abuse etc etc. The mods are really going to have to be on the ball every minute of every day. If there is an exodus of users due to strict moderation, the content of fb will eventually mirror that of the forum won’t it? Or am I looking at it all wrong?

[Guest]

There seems to be a lot of 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' over the N.B.N. 'Facebook page'. I really don't understand why, no one is being 'press ganged' into joining it. If you're happy being a member of the N.B.N. forums (or should that be 'fora'?) and don't want anything to do with the N.B.N. 'Facebook pages'. Then, there's a simple solution, don't apply to join.

Lot's of people can't get enough of 'online socialising' and have any number of 'apps' to fulfill their needs, mostly younger people it would seem. Personally, I prefer the old fashioned way, talking to people 'face to face', but I don't dismiss all social media, I'm on here 'tapping away on my keyboard' after all. I don't do 'twitter' or 'whats app' or even 'linkedin', but that's my choice and it's a choice everyone has. If you don't want it, you can just ignore it...

[ChrisB]

3 minutes ago, vanessan said:

That can only be a good thing but, if the moderators are as strict on fb as they are on here, there could be an exodus of users from the NBN group. It seems at the moment that almost anything goes on fb in general, bad language, trolling, verbal abuse etc etc. The mods are really going to have to be on the ball every minute of every day. If there is an exodus of users due to strict moderation, the content of fb will eventually mirror that of the forum won’t it? Or am I looking at it all wrong?

Well if it gets rid of trolls, bad language, and verbal abuse great. 

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, vanessan said:

That can only be a good thing but, if the moderators are as strict on fb as they are on here, there could be an exodus of users from the NBN group. It seems at the moment that almost anything goes on fb in general, bad language, trolling, verbal abuse etc etc. The mods are really going to have to be on the ball every minute of every day. If there is an exodus of users due to strict moderation, the content of fb will eventually mirror that of the forum won’t it? Or am I looking at it all wrong?

That sort of ties in to something I was just thinking about regarding the membership of both. Has any consideration been given to whether a member being removed from one platform, would also be removed from the other, if being moderated under the same set of TOS, you would have thought so, although the older TOS do not make mention of this. The other issue is that off course working out whether a member on Facebook had an account on the forum and vice versa, could be a headache! My head hurts just thinking about that.

[grendel]

6 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

That sort of ties in to something I was just thinking about regarding the membership of both. Has any consideration been given to whether a member being removed from one platform, would also be removed from the other, if being moderated under the same set of TOS, you would have thought so, although the older TOS do not make mention of this. The other issue is that off course working out whether a member on Facebook had an account on the forum and vice versa, could be a headache! My head hurts just thinking about that.

Thats actually a very good question, I dont know if we have a policy on that , but I do know that we have members on facebook that have been removed from here, and the opposite may also be true. I would think if they posted acceptably on facebook, but not here, that they would only be removed from the particular media where they have transgressed, but it is a question that we (moderators) will need to put to the chairman, as we might be called upon to justify member removal should a complaint be made to facebook.

[vanessan]

12 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

My head hurts just thinking about that.

Good thing it’s not your problem then, you’ve just given grendel a headache too!  Just take a couple of aspirin and go for a lie down. 

[Cockatoo]

1 minute ago, grendel said:

as we might be called upon to justify member removal should a complaint be made to facebook.

I think Facebook's attitude is it's your group run it how you want. I've never had an enquiry from Facebook about people I've  binned from a group I run.

You can remove people for any reason you like.

[ChrisB]

6 minutes ago, grendel said:

Thats actually a very good question, I dont know if we have a policy on that , but I do know that we have members on facebook that have been removed from here, and the opposite may also be true. I would think if they posted acceptably on facebook, but not here, that they would only be removed from the particular media where they have transgressed, but it is a question that we (moderators) will need to put to the chairman, as we might be called upon to justify member removal should a complaint be made to facebook.

Sounds like the whole Facebook thing would be better if it had not happened. Personally, my attitude is trolling and aggressive posts should receive a ban on both platforms.

[LondonRascal]

I think it boils down to something pretty simple. Let me go over things and give people some insight:

Once you had a bunch of people, spread over different Forum's talking about boating and the Broads. Slowly Facebook became evermore part of our daily lives, and over on the NBN a Page was created. Nothing much if ever was done with it, posted on it and when the ability to share certain content was made available to it from this Forum there was a big backlash - people here did not want anything they may have said, even if a nugget of a post shared to Facebook,  the same went for Twitter.

All settled back to the usual rythem's and yet something else was also about to 'explode' onto the scene. The Facebook Groups.  They had existed for all types of topics in the past, but when Love the Norfolk Broads appeared on the scene it stuck a chord. And as it grew, others joined in too - there are now many Facebook Groups all covering the same topic: the Broads.  Between admins there has certainly been a wish to be one with the highest membership count, and somewhere in this soup the NBN got its own Group and for months it sat with a few hundred members and very little going on.  Indeed it was sometimes just two or three regular Forum users who might share posts there, a few likes the odd comment it all seemed pretty low key and not on the 'radar' of most members over here on the Forum.

Then I got more involved over on the Facebook Group (and page) and set about getting it's membership up. We would not have holiday countdown posts, and we did not need to see countless photos of food etc, but the idea was to try and get the Norfolk Broads Network seen by more people, that would then lead to curiosity about what the Forum was about and the resources available here. There were limitations though - you could not promote the Group directly, and it seemed somehow better with a Facebook Page to have more control over content the NBN wished to post or affiliate itself with.  For example, the NBN could comment through it's Facebook Page on a local businesses Facebook Page and with that, so the NBN logo would appear with the comment. It seemed ideal and people could still use the page to share items, photos, stories etc.

The problem was (and is) people don't do Pages. I mean, sure they do if it is something like Nike or Tesco why not 'Like' them? But as a community like the NBN is, it just is not working because for it to it requires your grass roots community to easily join in discussions with you and each other and as a person who likes the Facebook Page, you are not notified in the same way as when you are a member of a Facebook Group to new posts made  by others - only of new content by the Page owner (i.e the NBN)

Furthermore, as someone who has liked the Page, you loose a bunch of tools when you post or comment on a post the Page owner has made. Posting to or commenting on a Facebook Group however is just the same in many ways as posting to your own Timeline or Story on your personal Facebook page and they are so integrated to your own Facebook Feed it is seamless. Facebook likes it like that as Groups are usually communities, not corporate companies etc, they can have Pages - the people can have Groups.

A poll was conducted and it was a resounding no to loosing the Group.  We still only had about 350 members, so nothing much compared to 3,000+ members on the main Norfolk Broads based Facebook Groups. It also meant the NBN had a something nobody else did. We had a Forum, a Facebook Page and a Facebook Group which was and still is a powerful combination.

I soon learnt that I could boost posts through the Facebook Page and this would promulgate to all those who liked the NBN Page, but also to those who did not, but through Facebook's algorithms would get such pop up in their Feeds as they were interested in that sort of thing (boating and the Norfolk Broads etc). This was going well, membership was steadily increasing on the Group while the Page was getting a few more likes. I then took things further when Facebook changed their polices allowing adverts through the Page to promote the Page owners brand/company etc off of Facbeook to an external URL. This was powerful stuff because it meant that I was now able to take paid promotions through the NBN Facebook Page, but the advertisements would target a demographic in the UK and Ireland of that who were members of not only the NBN Facebook Group but the others like it too.

This meant that while browsing posts, for example made on Love the Norfolk Broads Facebook Group, you would have an advert appear for the NBN - this would also appear in peoples own Feeds on Facebook simply because they had joined a Group based on the Norfolk Broads. Upon tapping the advert titled  'Learn More' or 'Sign Up Now' this  would lead you to this very Forum and from there, you could join using your Facebook credentials so you did not need another username and password - it made the process as simple as possible to get people members here on the Forum.

Each time I ran the promotions membership on the Forum went up, conversely membership of the NBN Facebook Group increased too.  Before too long I had managed to get more organic reach and did not need to pay for the adverts, and through a separate sticker campaign with local businesses and some key sites with QR codes, people would scan these with their Smartphone and by doing took them to the Forum's mobile website - it was all going pretty well.

Today the NBN Facebook Page has 2,015 likes, with 2,007 people choosing to follow the Page - thus get notification when something is posted by the NBN. We (the NBN) last shared content to the Page on 16th July about Bishy Barney Boats, and prior to that was a post on 17th May about the NBN App. Nobody (e.g those who follow or like the page) commented on either these posts. The shared link to the hire boats was seen by 374 people and attracted 3 likes. Hardly a big deal.

However, move over to the NBN Facebook Group and today that has 2,345 members (of which 2,051 are active). In the last 28 days it attracted 138 new members, and there have been over 8,000 posts, comments, reactions (likes etc). Every month the membership goes up by over 100 people - that is, however you look at it a big number and a massive community of people all interacting together.

With that number of people and that many interactions going on, you miss all the nice stuff , the normal polite comments, because it blends in. But when you get the odd bad one that snowballs and it really stands out. Now I must admit when I first set about growing the Facebook side of things, I did not take into account what may happen if things took off quite as they have, and here we are with an ever growing Facebook Group purely now through organic reach and people finding us without any new promotion. Many of those members are also members of other Norfolk Broads based Facebook Groups, some are also members of this Forum, but many many more are not and purely interact and post through the Group.

I think more can be done to once again promote the Forum over on the Group, but one must remember that since the majority of people are using the Group on a mobile device, having to adapt to the Forum be it through the mobile friendly site or our App is not something they will do and might have a looksie, but continue to post and interact on Facebook. 

So the big question is what to do? The Facebook side of things sites there merrily going alone and costs not a penny. We have thousands of people potentially who know what the NBN logo looks like, but not really I don't think what the rest of the 'Network' is. Conversely we have many sponsors here on the Forum who I think should be encouraged to interact more with the Facebook Group so their help to support our Forum can also allow them more access to our big Facebook membership but that also means Moderators need to take a more 'hands on' approach and when things begin to get out of hand mute a member on the Facebook Group and send a private message to them warning them what they have done wrong and link to our T.O.S. If that member choose to ignore the warning there should be no more, it is removal and blockage from the Group. 

By so doing it should help to create a better experience for those who use the Group, for businesses whose support the NBN and wish to promote their services with our Facebook members. I also believe there should be a zero tolerance to 'classified adverts' be it a dingy or a fender on the Group, but more use of such a service could b used over here on the Forum - so instead of just removing such a post being able to PM the person and say pop on over here and put our item for sale in the relevant section and hope to gain a donation o the Forums should they sell such through us the Forum.

One thing I do not believe can be done is ignore the Facebook members, or the importance and reach the Group has.

 

 

[rightsaidfred]

I dont have a problem with the NBN having a facebook presence in itself and everyone has a choice its just not for me, as long as it dosnt detract from the forum and  its purpose fine I just think that there are two different mentalities involved here and looking at Robins post the facebook group could end up destroying the forum and like most modern social media end up destroying itself.

Fred

[Wussername]

I was just going to give your post "a like" Fred. Then I thought that Facebook despite my fear of the site, my reservations of the site, having the ability to be able to destroy NBN is unfounded. 

[Polly]

I think it is largely unfounded. This Forum runs on the TOS and that will not change, the fact that there are different elements, FB,  Forum, Meets, Mad DIY projects, doesn't imply that they merge when in fact the diversity is a strength.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

I was just going to give your post "a like" Fred. Then I thought that Facebook despite my fear of the site, my reservations of the site, having the ability to be able to destroy NBN is unfounded. 

Its not facebook that will destroy the forum but reading between the lines of Robins post its the out with  the old in with the new trends today that's the danger, I am not against change or progress but one dosn`t automatically mean the other and todays fad can disappear quicker than the tried and tested of yesteryear, all ready facebook etc seem to be loosing their attraction for many, its fine for those that want it no problem there as long as it dosn`t distract emphasis from the forum.

Fred

[oldgregg]

I think the team sees the NBN platform as a strength, and something that sets it apart from other groups so there's no suggestion or intention of FB replacing it.

 

People seem to be overreacting to this thread when the message is simply that the Facebook group will be more tightly controlled in order to make it feel more like part of NBN.

 

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

 

 

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

When I was a young kid, my mother would often say... "Don't cry before you're hurt". I think that applies here on this matter big time.

I hope nobody takes offence at this but it sometimes seems to me that those who worry most about facebook actually know little about it and how it works. (me included)

Perhaps one should liken it to a hire craft which under the helm of a novice both speeds off and then hits another boat. Suddenly it is thought that nobody on a hire craft has any idea of what they're doing, and they all speed.

We know that this is just not true, but the feeling still exists.

Facebook has millions of users in the UK alone. Are they all trolls? Do they all indulge in personal abuse? No of course they don't, so might I suggest that we all wait to see if that which is planned actually does have some detrimental effect on this forum rather than whimpering on about how we're all doomed!

One member here (no names, no packdrill) not that long after joining, took offence at something that was said on this forum and spoke of leaving. He didn't leave and is now a highly respected member. He just appreciated that he needed a slightly thicker skin if he was to enjoy the "rough and tumble" of forum life. OK, it might be necessary for us to "man up" a bit should some of the disturbing influences show themselves here, but e have a strong mod team who will be watching out for the forum. It is not for us to worry.

18 hours ago, ChrisB said:

I must admit to a similar feeling. At the first sign of vulgarity or aggession, however fast it is stamped on I will ask for my membership to be removed.

Sorry Chris but I have to ask "Why?" aggression has happened on this forum already, nothing to do with facebook. Vulgarity occurs from time to time, but both these nasties are "stamped on" quickly and effectively by our mods. as long as that continues to be the case is there really any cause to leave? I honestly cannot see things becoming significantly worse because of facebook.

[ChrisB]

Sorry MM but we must agree to disagree. The few teddies thrown about on here do not compare to the venom I have witnessed by facebook devotees.

I don't want to give details but I stopped a person on facebook but only after my only recourse was very expensive legal action.

I think when moderation on facebook is the same as here someone could end up with a full time job.

That is how I feel about the situation and I really do not wish to debate it any further, I shall resist posting on this thread.

I shall post a vase of roses like the Beano used to when Dennis was going to get slippered twice in one day.

[oldgregg]

24 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

I don't want to give details but I stopped a person on facebook but only after my only recourse was very expensive legal action.

Sorry, but to be clear here - Do you mean "on Facebook" or do you mean "on the NBN Facebook Group" ?

[ChrisB]

Nothing to do with here. 

Facebook would do absolutely nothing. So I had to get them through the courts.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

One member here (no names, no packdrill) not that long after joining, took offence at something that was said on this forum and spoke of leaving.

I may as well own up to that one, John! I remember the very good advice that you gave me at the time and it was not for the last time either. You have advised me since, by PM, not all that long ago, for which many thanks.

Your post is also excellent advice and I agree with all that you say. But maybe what happened to me, is what some of us are always worried about personally? JillR asked me to join, in a debate about Thorpe Island and I was a cyberspace virgin. A bit like Arthur Dent. I knew how to write an e-mail on my wife's computer but that was about all. It is still about all!

If it had not been for Jill I am sure I would never have joined, as I had heard about social media and the way people seem to just hide behind anonymity as an excuse to be thoroughly rude to each other. Incidentally, I have many old friends on the Broads, including boatyard owners, who feel the same way and will have nothing to do with this forum even though I have suggested that they ought to. So Facebook's reputation precedes it.

When I got attacked by a certain person I thought there we are, it was bound to happen, so I wanted to leave. When I decided to come back, I did so with a thicker skin. But was that a good thing? Has it made me too quick to react to rudery, and therefore more aggressive myself? I have to say that unnecessary bad behaviour still hurts me, and still makes me wonder, even now, if I want (or need) to bother with it.

It's difficult to find an analogy but I suppose it is like coming home from work and going down to the local pub, to have the usual chat with the locals about events on the Broads, only to find that the lounge bar has been closed for decoration, so you have to muck in with all the crowd in the public bar and put up with other peoples' loud choices on the Juke Box. And you are hoping, all the time, that these decorations are not going to mean knocking down the two separate bars to make one enormous room.

I really don't want an argument - I hate it - and I can't abide abuse, no matter how quickly it is moderated. So I am afraid that if Facebook style posting starts to threaten what should be the gentle atmosphere of this forum, (if it has not already) then it may well drive me out, among others. There may be a casualty rate in this and I have noticed that there is one already.

When the next door neighbour's cat creeps in and throws up something disgusting behind a chair on the living room carpet, it gets cleaned up very quickly!  But the bad odour lingers afterwards.

[Polly]

Well we had lovelyFB NBN members come to the Spring Meet  and we met a super couple atHickling recently FB NBN.

Not a horn or fang to be seen. 

If I read this thread as FB member thinking about joining the Forum...I probably wouldn’t, you know.

It’s not all about abuse after all. My reason for boycotting FB is it’s management not the NBN group members. 

[Timbo]

So I pop onto the NBN Facebook and visit the forum.

One has a request for help researching the Broads during WW2, someone asking for help identifying a timber construction discovered under a riverside bungalow in Thurne, a selection of holiday videos and photographs,  a question about whether to hire direct from the yard or Hoseasons, a post saying they visited the other platform and were greeted with snobbery, a video of their cruise around the Broads, a plea for help locating the owners of a dog from the Wroxham Vets.

Now on the other site...

[Vaughan]

24 minutes ago, Timbo said:

So I pop onto the NBN Facebook and visit the forum.

One has a request for help researching the Broads during WW2, someone asking for help identifying a timber construction discovered under a riverside bungalow in Thurne, a selection of holiday videos and photographs,  a question about whether to hire direct from the yard or Hoseasons, a post saying they visited the other platform and were greeted with snobbery, a video of their cruise around the Broads, a plea for help locating the owners of a dog from the Wroxham Vets.

Now on the other site...

Unfortunately, this has been my fear, all along.

I could make historic and informed comment on two of those items and would like to see and share two of the others. I might be able to say where any photos were taken, and of what boats. But I can't do that as none of the above have been posted on this forum.

On the other hand there are plenty of subjects there, which have started here. Reedham ferry, for instance?

Look, I really don't want to aggravate this situation. I said yesterday that I would back out of this discussion but perhaps my post this morning can be excused as a response to a good post by a member.

I will try to sit on my hands and stay on the sidelines.

 

(Was that a mixed metaphor? At least it wasn't a double negative!}