Into A Flap With A Flappy Thing

[MauriceMynah]

Right, here we go. I'm not trying to cause a them (sailies) and us (stinkies) here, I would genuinely like to know...

Who was in the wrong, (he, me, neither or both.).

and who should have done what!

The narrow dyke I'm moored in at the pleasure boat was suffering a lack of wind at the time, and just as I was about to leave a Yeoman sailing boat passed by me, heading for Hickling broad, paddle powered.

I delayed casting off for a short while, and given that I was going to turn the boat about so I too could head for the broad, my delay was not great. It takes a few minutes for me to turn and I estimated that by the time I reached the broad, the yeoman would be long gone. There was some breeze on the broad, it was just the dyke that was becalmed..

This was as far as I can see, my only misjudgement. I cruised up the dyke on a mix of tick-over and neutral However,  I still caught the yeoman up just as he was entered the broad. He was now altering his course to starboard and stopped paddling, as going up the dyke he had what little breeze there was, against him. Very slowly he left a space astern. I took that space to overtake him and set off at about 3mph.

The next thing I know, he is heading straight for me and calling out "You need to get some patience" I did not reply, but I had to give Nyx near full revs to avoid his hitting my starboard side. the impact was avoided by my doing this, he made no attempt at avoidance.

Now, since that day I have discovered that a yeoman has quite a big keel, so I assume he had to tack or risk going aground. Fine, but he made no indication of his intention to do so. I don't know how wide the channel is at that point (it was recently dredged.)

My objection to his sarcasm goes without saying, but

1. Should he have stopped paddling whilst still restricted by the seemingly narrow channel ?

2. Should I have attempted the pass?

3. What signs would a sailing skipper give to indicate I should NOT attempt to pass?

 

 

[dnks34]

You probably should have given him a good hour to get clear in which time he may have got bored waiting to hold you up and been out the way!

I think the words spoken from his mouth tell you all you need to know, some folk “might” just derive some sort of enjoyment from being obstinate on purpose 

[smellyloo]

I would say that as you were behind the sail boat the onus is for you to overtake safely and not cause him to be obstructed.

But, as in all things, things need to be judged on the conditions at the time. Whilst the yacht acted according to the rules I think he should have judged that the conditions might dictate some helpful signs from him would prove helpful. These are mostly welcomed by the motor boaters but there are occassions (very often from gin palaces) where these directions are not welcomed and ignored.

But, you say the winds were light, so I doubt either of you were in danger of a nasty colission.

Now this is just my opinion but i'm sure someone will highlight all the relevant rules that come into play and apportion blame.

[Guest]

Sometimes, you can abide by all rules of navigation, be courteous and thoughtful, but some people just get out of bed the wrong side and there just ain't no pleasing them. No one died, no damage was done, I would forget all about it, have a lovely cruise and enjoy this beautiful day...

[Matt]

Smile and wave, smile and wave.

If they carry on just wave more enthusiastically.

Works every time :-)


Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Vaughan]

Whether the yacht was under sail or under power (paddling) you were the overtaking vessel and had to give way.

However!

I can't remember the rule number, but it states that in a giving way situation, the vessel that has right of way must maintain its course and speed. He was not tacking in a river : he had paid off to starboard in open water and gave no indication that he suddenly intended to tack. So from what you have told us, he was in the wrong.

He also doesn't sound like the kind of person you would think of as good company in a pub!

[MauriceMynah]

50 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

I think the words spoken from his mouth tell you all you need to know, some folk “might” just derive some sort of enjoyment from being obstinate on purpose

That's how I felt.

 

[grendel]

Well Griffs up that way at the moment with a crew of communications experts, I reckon if the flappy tries it on with Griff - they will be communicated with in no uncertain terms.

[Vaughan]

Code flag X-ray.

"Stop carrying out your intentions and watch for my signals"!

[grendel]

[Ray]

I would welcome more direction from yachts, quite often it is just not possible to guess their intentions. I am more than happy to comply if directed and to hold off if required but I do find having to guess a pita!

 I love flappy things to look at and admire the skills involved, no "us v them" here either... I just don't have a crystal ball 

[Polly]

I would say if you were abeam of him and he tacked into you even coming from starboard of you he was out of order technically. 

As a courtesy thing he shouldn’t have tacked there anyway. 

Its hot he was paddling and at that point struggling to get some way. I can see how he got there but I still think he was out of order.

[dnks34]

Is there a flag for “my actions will be based on whatever you try and do to avoid me” for all those sailies who no matter how you try and stay clear of them always seem to point themselves either straight at you or to exactly the spot you are going to try and avoid them!!!

 

[ExSurveyor]

25 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

Is there a flag for “my actions will be based on whatever you try and do to avoid me” for all those sailies who no matter how you try and stay clear of them always seem to point themselves either straight at you or to exactly the spot you are going to try and avoid them!!!

 

No but there is always the forward torpedo tubes.

[JennyMorgan]

Trial by forum! I wasn't there so I can only guess. As has been pointed out, overtaking boat stays clear, plain and simple. The Yeoman might have been forced into tacking, it does happen when, for example the wind backs off nearby trees, can't be helped and apart from clenching one's buttocks not much that can be done about it. Alternatively the keel, about 3'6", smells the mud so helmsman goes about. If the other boat, Nyx, had also been a sailing boat then a customary call of 'water' would normally alert other boats. The sailing boat appears to have been maneuvering with difficulty and it appears that it was being overtaken, both situations demand that others, Nyx, stays clear. Just my understanding of the situation. Give and take, as well as understanding by both parties is desirable. Granted that Nyx probably needed steerage in order to avoid running aground herself but nevertheless I have to agree with the observation that greater patience would probably have been a virtue. Perhaps the Yeoman could have waved Nyx forward and let John go past, it would have been the decent thing to do, but then John could have held back longer. 

[grendel]

15 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Trial by forum! I wasn't there so I can only guess

actually I wouldnt go as far as to say trial, guesswork by forum maybe.

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, Ray said:

I would welcome more direction from yachts, quite often it is just not possible to guess their intentions. I am more than happy to comply if directed and to hold off if required but I do find having to guess a pita!

 I love flappy things to look at and admire the skills involved, no "us v them" here either... I just don't have a crystal ball 

May I reccomend a two hour skippered sail at Hunters Yard to all MoBo helms who care. You would learn a huge amount about flappy things and how they work that would help to make your trips so much mor enjoyable and less stressful for everyone.

You will also hopefully find yourself in a position to be able to correctly predict what the yacht is most likely to do.

[Poppy]

https://www.huntersyard.co.uk/welcome-to-hunters-yard/2-hour-sails-2/

 

Perhaps a group could get together and share the very reasonable cost.

[Meantime]

45 minutes ago, grendel said:

actually I wouldnt go as far as to say trial, guesswork by forum maybe.

That's the problem with these sort of posts, is that it can only be guesswork as we were not there and have no sort of video to review. John has done an excellent job of trying to describe the situation, but it still leaves a lot of things open to interpretation.

In which case I believe the only fair way to look at it is to see which byelaws may be relevant and let John make up his mind if they applied.

It appears to be an overtaking situation, in which case byelaw 15 applies and basically puts the full onus on the vessel overtaking to keep out of the way of the other vessel.

It could perhaps also be interpreted as a crossing situation? When the risk of collision was occurring the other vessel was approaching John's starboard side. This is covered by byelaw 16 and says that the vessel that has the other vessel on its starboard side should keep his vessel out of the way.

Then there is byelaw 18 Action by stand on vessel, which is the one I think Vaughan was referring to. The other vessel was the stand on vessel I believe, if we accept that John was the give way vessel. The stand on vessel should keep his course and speed. Now this is where is becomes difficult. Was he the stand on vessel before, or after he altered his course towards John? Part 4 of byelaw 18 states that nothing in this byelaw shall relieve the master of the give way vessel of his obligation to keep out of the way of the other vessel.

Then there is byelaw 23 responsibilities between vessels which basically says a power driven vessel should give way to a sail or manually propelled vessel. 

Byelaw 12 part 3 is an interesting one. The master of a power driven vessel shall if necessary to avoid a collision or to allow more time to asses the situation slacken the speed of the vessel or take all way off by stopping or reversing its means of propulsion. Which would tend to indicate that John did wrong by accelerating to get out of the way. However in real terms boats do not stop very well, let alone come to a stand still and then reverse. Once moving they do speed up quicker and despite the dubious byelaw I think John's action is one I would have taken if I found myself in that situation.

To try and answer your specific questions,

1. Should he have stopped paddling whilst still restricted by the seemingly narrow channel ?

There is nothing in the byelaws to say he did anything wrong. Once he got some wind it would have been easier than paddling so I don't think he was particularly wrong.

2. Should I have attempted the pass?

Without having a very clear picture of what took place on the day, it's very hard to say. The byelaws seem to indicate that you shouldn't have attempted to pass.

3. What signs would a sailing skipper give to indicate I should NOT attempt to pass?

I don't think there is any recognised signs as such and this is part of the problem. In addition if he was solo cruising he may have been too busy to give any signs, although it would appear he had enough time to think up some sarcasm, never a good sign.

My final thought is that possibly the sailboat was paddling out onto the broad and headed into the wind to stall a little whilst he stowed his paddle and then settled him self at the helm and then set for the best course with the wind, which in this case was back towards John. If that is the case, then it doesn't appear to have been a deliberate action by the sailboat, but almost a normal part of getting underway. I think from what's been said, I may have waited, but without actually being there its very hard to decide.

The main thing is that no harm came to either vessel. Perhaps a little wounded pride and that's about it.

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

That's the problem with these sort of posts, is that it can only be guesswork as we were not there and have no sort of video to review. John has done an excellent job of trying to describe the situation, but it still leaves a lot of things open to interpretation.

In which case I believe the only fair way to look at it is to see which byelaws may be relevant and let John make up his mind if they applied.

It appears to be an overtaking situation, in which case byelaw 15 applies and basically puts the full onus on the vessel overtaking to keep out of the way of the other vessel.

It could perhaps also be interpreted as a crossing situation? When the risk of collision was occurring the other vessel was approaching John's starboard side. This is covered by byelaw 16 and says that the vessel that has the other vessel on its starboard side should keep his vessel out of the way.

Then there is byelaw 18 Action by stand on vessel, which is the one I think Vaughan was referring to. The other vessel was the stand on vessel I believe, if we accept that John was the give way vessel. The stand on vessel should keep his course and speed. Now this is where is becomes difficult. Was he the stand on vessel before, or after he altered his course towards John? Part 4 of byelaw 18 states that nothing in this byelaw shall relieve the master of the give way vessel of his obligation to keep out of the way of the other vessel.

Then there is byelaw 23 responsibilities between vessels which basically says a power driven vessel should give way to a sail or manually propelled vessel. 

Byelaw 12 part 3 is an interesting one. The master of a power driven vessel shall if necessary to avoid a collision or to allow more time to asses the situation slacken the speed of the vessel or take all way off by stopping or reversing its means of propulsion. Which would tend to indicate that John did wrong by accelerating to get out of the way. However in real terms boats do not stop very well, let alone come to a stand still and then reverse. Once moving they do speed up quicker and despite the dubious byelaw I think John's action is one I would have taken if I found myself in that situation.

To try and answer your specific questions,

1. Should he have stopped paddling whilst still restricted by the seemingly narrow channel ?

There is nothing in the byelaws to say he did anything wrong. Once he got some wind it would have been easier than paddling so I don't think he was particularly wrong.

2. Should I have attempted the pass?

Without having a very clear picture of what took place on the day, it's very hard to say. The byelaws seem to indicate that you shouldn't have attempted to pass.

3. What signs would a sailing skipper give to indicate I should NOT attempt to pass?

I don't think there is any recognised signs as such and this is part of the problem. In addition if he was solo cruising he may have been too busy to give any signs, although it would appear he had enough time to think up some sarcasm, never a good sign.

My final thought is that possibly the sailboat was paddling out onto the broad and headed into the wind to stall a little whilst he stowed his paddle and then settled him self at the helm and then set for the best course with the wind, which in this case was back towards John. If that is the case, then it doesn't appear to have been a deliberate action by the sailboat, but almost a normal part of getting underway. I think from what's been said, I may have waited, but without actually being there its very hard to decide.

The main thing is that no harm came to either vessel. Perhaps a little wounded pride and that's about it.

Good grief!

I'm going back up to my loft to play trains!    

[Ray]

Couldn't it just be simplified by having

Rule 1 Give way unless you can't

Rule 2 If you can't then signal your intentions by pointimg where you want the other boat to go.

These rules to apply to any meetings between flappies and smellies equally!

[dnks34]

Its one thing learning how to predict what a sailing vessel might be about to do but unfortunately very few of us are blessed with the powers of clairvoyance needed to read the skippers mind!!! 

[vanessan]

We always appreciate it when flappy helmsmen give us directions as to where they would like us to go. Could I just ask though, what does one finger (usually the middle one) mean when it points skywards?

[MauriceMynah]

That the helmsman is too busy to raise the other one at 45 degrees to the one raised.  :)

2 things to add to the description of the event under discussion. Firstly that he had a crew (a lady) and that his progress had been so slow I had caught right up with him.

Further, had I slowed or stopped he would nhave rammed me (albeit very gently) to avoid contact acceleration was my only option. I doubt going astern would have been successful.

Yes there was no danger of any damage to either craft, and had he not made the sarky comment I would have forgotten all about the matter within moments. BUT

1. it is my belief that he was intentionally causing the problem.

2. he was bigging himself up and...

3. He believes he has the right of way to do this..

[Ray]

Bigging himself up, particularly with a lady crew member does seem to be a situation played out in all sorts of craft all over the broads, I have noticed.

My particular lady crew member has singularly failed to be impressed by anything I have done or said since 1978 and therefore I don't bother with it myself!