Fancy A Bash Up The River?

[Wussername]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/river-chet-cruiser-sinking-one-of-200-crashes-recorded-on-broads-1-5686298

[batrabill]

I wonder if this is the outcome of questions from Miles, well-known boater from another forum? He was after this data  

So 11 years, 200 reported crashes, about 1 and a half a month. 

Undoubtably many, many unreported, but probably at the less serious end. 

Not exactly boatageddon is it?

I do note a comment underneath the article from someone who claims to have gathered anecdotal evidence that some hire yards are really skimping on instruction. That seems very foolish to me. 

[BrundallNavy]

Those numbers only scratch the surface pardon the pun, Many collisions are not reported and is often the result of young inexperienced helms being allowed to drive while the parents just sit back and drink a glass of wine.

[MauriceMynah]

Oh this makes me so angry. The boatyards can't win. If they give sufficient training it will take too long and people will be waiting ages to start their holiday. Get the holiday makers on their way and they get accused of negligence.

The Norfoplk Broads is the place where most pleasure boat users learn to handle a boat. They will have bumps. If a person wants to avoid novices and all that goes with them, Don't use a boat on the Norfolk broads. That's where the novices are.

The boat on the Chet had hit a submerged object. This was counted as a crash. Yeah right, Boatyards should teach novice hirers how to avoid submerged objects. Privateers will need to teach themselves.

As BatraBill says, the stats indicate 1.5 crashes a month. well lets say take half the year so 3 bashes a month. Still very few. Also some people seem to get hit more often than others. One really unfortunate soul seems to be hit on a very regular basis. Might that be because he moors reasonably frequently very close to where these novices have to turn boats about? Places like Sutton staithe and Stalham parish quay?

The Archant article (as per normal) is heavy on implication whilst light on facts.

What constitutes a "crash"?

The 198 collisions were reported by whom to whom?

Of those 198 "crashes" how many resulted in injury? How many resulted in death?

How many incidents on boats that have resulted in injury or death did alcohol play a significant part? (numbers, not percentages)

Does Archant really want to kill the broads tourist trade? 

 

[Vaughan]

51 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Does Archant really want to kill the broads tourist trade? 

Well done John, you took the words out of my mouth.   

This is just another piece of inconsequential nonsense which means absolutely nothing because it relates to only one figure, which can be interpreted how you like, as it has no actual co-relation with anything at all. Garbage. If the national gutter press decide to leap on this piece of "journalism", it could indeed affect tourism. - It certainly has in the past!

What is even more annoying is that toll payers are paying for some expert with a degree, to come up with this garden manure.

It reminds me of about 15 years ago, when yet another over-educated functionary at the BA declared (also in the EDP) that from now on, all cases of someone falling in the river would be listed as a "drowning near - miss".

[batrabill]

I do think that many people misunderstand what the Press is there for. There isn't much money in local news so often the full-time staff would only fill a taxi. Others are "working from home". They largely regurgitate what they are given with the minimum amount of work.

I think these figures were sought by Miles. I could be wrong but he recently got the figures for the last year and said he had asked for the 10 year figures. Possibly an FOI?

How they got to the EDP it is hard to say. When they did they "reported" them (ie spent about 10 minutes typing them up and calling for a quote.)

If they have any function it is to report, not write a puff piece titled Most Holidaymakers Have a Lovely Time on Norfolk Broads

The facts are there, and actually don't look bad at all. Bear in mind 30-40 people die on Norfolk roads every year.

I would repeat what I think is a really important point, that hirers should be properly taught. Driving a boat the size of an articulated lorry, with 5 minutes of instruction is foolish.

 

[MauriceMynah]

58 minutes ago, batrabill said:

I would repeat what I think is a really important point, that hirers should be properly taught. Driving a boat the size of an articulated lorry, with 5 minutes of instruction is foolish.

Whilst on face value that seems right, but I do find myself wondering.

I have been holidaying on the broads since 1964. In that time the hire business has grown, grown more, peaked and dropped off. I would estimate the broads were at their busiest in the mid 80s, with the vast majority of craft out being hire craft, and a high proportion of those being novices.

At that time the training was no more than it is today, yet complaints of poor boatcraft were few, or at least not well known of. So what has changed? Could it be that the previous hirers are now boat owners, keeping their boats on the broads and that it is they who now clamber for the better training of novices?  

Things HAVE changed, but it's not the tutorage that s the root cause, it is the attitude of the general public towards other peoples property. "Not mine, so it doesn't matter." "Don't tell me how fast I can go, I'll go at whatever speed I like." and "Wasn't me, I wasn't there. It was broken when I saw it."

So, if you want things to improve on the broads, don't aim your criticism at the hire yards, blame modern society, and change it!

 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

The facts are there, and actually don't look bad at all.

But what do you relate them to? Does a boat sinking in mid river having grounded on an underwater obstacle, get on to the same list as a couple of day launches bouncing off each other outside the Hotel Wroxham?

Do any of these collisions (sorry - crashes) actually matter at all? Unless someone was injured? I thought this was what we all have insurance policies for?

This is useless statistical nonsense.

[Paladin]

44 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I have been holidaying on the broads since 1964. In that time the hire business has grown, grown more, peaked and dropped off. I would estimate the broads were at their busiest in the mid 80s, with the vast majority of craft out being hire craft, and a high proportion of those being novices.

At that time the training was no more than it is today, yet complaints of poor boatcraft were few, or at least not well known of. So what has changed?

The arrival of the Internet in the mid-90s, then Facebook and Internet forums in the early 2000s. Everyone and his brother, sister, mum and dad can now complain publicly, regardless of whether those complaints are justified, or even reasonable.

[Cockatoo]

"After Wroxham, Breydon Water and Ludham were the joint second most common areas for collisions"

 

Now Ludham I can see but Breydon?

 

Are people crossing Breydon wearing blindfolds?

[annv]

The boat that punched a hole in it's stern was caused by i suspect he was steering away from the bank the stern then swings over and where it would just bump the bank and no harm done unfortunately hit the one piece of metal in the whole broads and made a hole,  perhaps a more experienced helm would,1= wouldn't have steered and hit the bank, 2= if noticing boat getting low in water would have beached it be for it sunk. as reguards crashes,  colison waver has a lot to answer for, in not my boat so dont car  it wont cost my deposit. John

[Poppy]

6 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Does Archant really want to kill the broads tourist trade? 

 

I'm sure they don't. However pressure to ensure that holidaymakers are properly prepared and instructed before embarking on their trip would not come amiss.  It's even more important now with the 40 -45 footers that are coming out of the yards with folks in control who demonstrably would have trouble handling a picnic boat.

[Wussername]

2 hours ago, Poppy said:

I'm sure they don't. However pressure to ensure that holidaymakers are properly prepared and instructed before embarking on their trip would not come amiss.  It's even more important now with the 40 -45 footers that are coming out of the yards with folks in control who demonstrably would have trouble handling a picnic boat.

Hi Poppy. "Properly prepared and instructed". 

By who?

What training has that person received? What accreditation has he obtained to teach, to instruct. 

Do all boat yards conform to the standards and principal of that which is accepted and approved with regard to the basic requirements recognised by those of us, including your goodself, and have a reasonable expectation that these disciplines have been identified and understood.

 Some will say that the trial run has stood the sence of time. It requires little attention.

I disagree. It needs revisiting. There are so many implications which relates to the boat yard, the boat yards agent and his client, the customer, in the event of a serious incident. 

We live in a different legal environment from that of years ago.

That is why I believe Poppy's post is so important.

Andrew.

[Ray]

I suspect that very few incidents are the don't care mavericks, most people don't want to have an accident and would be far happier to complete a manoeuvre successfully and calmly to the quiet approval of onlookers.

Being faced with a short introduction and finding yourself with a steering wheel and throttle must commonly lead to an instictive attempt to drive like a car.

Maybe it's already covered in most yard's briefing but an emphasis on the "difference" from a car could really help. Maybe a small plaque near the helm with basic mooring advice regarding speed and where a boat pivots as the you turn the wheel would also help for those moments when it all seems to be going pear shaped (we've all had them)

[Wussername]

i am not sure Ray that the car bit is relevant. it is a boat. Concentrate on that bit.

I was hit by a hire boat on Salhouse Broad three weeks or was it four weeks ago. I was moored up. Having lunch.They reversed into me, at speed in attempt to stern moor. 

I had ten people on my hired picnic boat. Children, parents and grandparents. It was a serious hit, at speed. Glasses, food, plates on the floor. Cupboard doors flew open, the contents smashed on the floor. I had ten guests on board. All confused. Upset.

On the hire boat, one women injured, badly bruised hand in an attempt to fend off. 

Some of the hire boat people were in tears. the hire boat attempted to leave. One member of their crew was standing on the stern, his arms extended in a passive manner and in broken English told me that it was the first day on the boat and they they did not know how to reverse the boat.

i requested that they reversed back. They did not feel confident enough to attempt the maneuver. so another member of the crew used the boats dinghy to the bank to confront me. As he approached I informed him it was not to be a confrontational meeting.

I helped him from his dinghy and shook his hand and thanked him for meeting me. By the way, it was friendly fire, a blue on blue. We were both from the same boat yard. 

I told him that I was duty bound to report to the boat yard which i duly carried out. And we carried out the formalities. Although I feel that the lady with the bruised hand would carry her discomfort for the duration of her holiday.

I felt so very sorry for the hire boat driver. He had an expectation, for his holiday, which failed to reach his ideal.

The Industry, the Broads Authority, those who rely on our visitors, our pubs, restaurants, our media, indeed the forums need to be aware of the value and impact of their contribution.

 

 

  

[Ray]

That was a nasty experience, I hope your guests were all OK and it hasn't put them off!

I see your point about concentrating on it being a boat.. the speed thing seems to be hard to appreciate for first timers. More years ago than I care to remember on one of my first trips, a wonderful old gentleman who was Norfolk born and bred summed up the whole business of manoeuvring a boat for me "make haste slowly" - I think of him every time I moor still 

[Poppy]

12 hours ago, Wussername said:

i am not sure Ray that the car bit is relevant. it is a boat. Concentrate on that bit.

 

 

  

The 'car bit' is relevant. Very relevant. There will be many, not all but many, inexperienced hirers who will have been told 'it's just like a car' or words to that effect.

Well, I've not yet driven a car in well over 50 years that steers at the back wheels. Also cars have effective brakes ! These essential differences should be pointed out.

There are more than a few boatyard staff involved in handovers who are very well experienced in handling the boats in their fleet and appear to 'show off'  with high speed manoevers . Is it any wonder that the first time boater senses (wrongly) thats the way it should be done ?

[Vaughan]

18 hours ago, SteveDuk said:

Are people crossing Breydon wearing blindfolds?

Or are the BA including running aground as a "collision". If so, another irrelevant statistic.

 

The incident that Wussername describes was indeed a serious one and involved an actual injury which, itself, could have been far worse. It was a traumatic moment and all concerned must have been shocked by it.

But will it get onto the BA's list of accident statistics? Was it reported to the BA? I bet the boatyard won't volunteer the information nor, probably, the insurers. You see, I am trying to stick to the facts (as such) of this EDP article, where the figure that they give, over 10 years, seems amazingly small to me. I would have thought that collisions such as Wussername describes are more likely happening, all over the Broads, around 3 to 5 times per day, not just 3 a month, as the BA suggest. So where do they get their figure from?

I also notice that this forum discussion, as usual, has already slid into the tacit assumption that these accidents mainly involve hire boats and are caused by bad instruction. There is nothing in the figure above to suggest this, but I understand it, as a hire boat is out on the water every day for 20 to 25 weeks every season and a private boat is not. So it is statistically far more likely to be involved in an accident. Does this automatically mean that a private boat, on average statistic, is driven better than a hire boat? Answers on a postcard, please.

What is the boatyard meant to do? A trial run is only as good as the person who has hired the boat. If they don't want to listen or are being constantly distracted by their wailing kids, the instructor doesn't have a hope. The yard is entitled to refuse to let a boat to "unsuitable" (or incompetent) hirers but are they really going to do this? It involves a full refund of hire money and may also involve travel and hotel expenses, depending on the customer's lawyer. In all my career as a yard manager I have only refused a boat 3 times. On all of these 3 occasions, the customers subsequently took the boat out the next day and enjoyed a good holiday.

I have operated hire boats in other countries of Europe and in the States, and Britain is the only country I know where there is no requirement for a skipper's licence to drive a boat on inland waterways. In France, the hirers are given a certificate, after their trial run, valid during the dates of their holiday, which states that they have passed their instruction and are competent to drive the boat. They are required to produce this paper if stopped by the authorities. All private boats must be driven by holders of a nationally recognised inland waterways skipper's licence and so must all instructors on the boatyard.

I understand that an RYA ticket involves at least 2 days instruction. Is this what we want to see on the Broads? Answers on a postcard, please.

Meantime, the one and only, non categorised figure quoted in that article remains a totally useless statistic.

 

[MauriceMynah]

50 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I also notice that this forum discussion, as usual, has already slid into the tacit assumption that these accidents mainly involve hire boats and are caused by bad instruction. There is nothing in the figure above to suggest this, but I understand it, as a hire boat is out on the water every day for 20 to 25 weeks every season and a private boat is not. So it is statistically far more likely to be involved in an accident. Does this automatically mean that a private boat, on average statistic, is driven better than a hire boat? Answers on a postcard, please.

This is no reflection on hirers.

The probability is that in the vast majority of cases, a boat owner is an ex-hirer. he or she learned their skills (and love of boating) on a hire craft. It follows then, that the majority of novices are in hire craft. From this we can deduce that the accidents involving novices will, more often than not, also involve hire craft.

Is this not a reasonable premise to work from?

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Is this not a reasonable premise to work from?

I am working from this BA release which simply states that there have been a (very small) number of collisions (sorry, crashes) over the last 10 years. Without any other reference to anything whatever and without any definition of the character of these collisions, it is a worthless piece of statistics. 

There is also nothing whatever in the article which should automatically suggest that these incidents were caused by a bad trial run given by a hire boatyard. That is certainly jumping to conclusions.

[Poppy]

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

. Without any other reference to anything whatever and without any definition of the character of these collisions, it is a worthless piece of statistics. ch should automatically suggest that these incidents were caused by a bad trial run given by a hire boatyard. That is certainly jumping to conclusions.

I, and I guess others, am working from personal experience, observation and conversations with hirers and others on the rhond.

I don't think things are the same as trhey were in the halcion days when you were involved Vaughan.

[Vaughan]

46 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I don't think things are the same as trhey were in the halcion days when you were involved Vaughan.

I am now a hirer as well, Poppy. So I have up to date experience, to make a comparison. Since you mention it, those "halcyon days" were a lot worse, in terms of collisions.

This thread is about a bland statement issued from the BA (presumably following a recent navigation committee meeting) which, as it stands, is nonsense.

There is therefore no reason whatever (if we are to stick to the subject) to turn this into another forum grump about the standard of instruction given by hire boatyards. 

 

[eddybear]

Sorry to butt in at the last moment, and by the length of this thread let's hope it's approaching that, if we look on You tube there are plenty of examples of boat handling, if the said Boat hire yards could make videos of how to handle a Broads boat namely how to reverse more, how to Moorside on, reasons for speed limits and sticking to them, and maybe anything else to do with the safe and efficient running of the particular craft the people are hiring, and as most of us are on the Internet and have an email address this could be emailed to them with their booking as a link to YouTube regards Ted

[DAVIDH]

A full suite of "how to" videos has been available on Youtube for years now published by the Broads Authority, including how to stern moor, going under bridges etc. They are company neutral so yes eddybear an email with links to them would be easy to achieve. It surprises me that hardly any of the boatyard websites refer to them.

 

 

[Hylander]

Dont think for one moment it is just The Broads,   my son and his wife encounter many nationalities on the French canal/river system who are equally as bad as our lot.