Meanwhile, Back At The Bins...

[MauriceMynah]

I do not wish to dilute the threads regarding the DEFRA survey "Time to comment" or the "JP's broads briefing", but one thing I find myself confused about is the definitions of "Commercial" and "leisure" and why one set of rules apply to cruising yet the other is applied to the waste from that cruising?

Can anyone help me here?

[JanetAnne]

Wasn't the fuel duty put on because it's a leisure activity?

[Paladin]

34 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

I do not wish to dilute the threads regarding the DEFRA survey "Time to comment" or the "JP's broads briefing", but one thing I find myself confused about is the definitions of "Commercial" and "leisure" and why one set of rules apply to cruising yet the other is applied to the waste from that cruising?

Can anyone help me here?

I’m confused about what you’re confused about!

If it’s any help, the definitions of various classifications of craft are to be found in section 25 of the 1988 Broads Act, for example:

“commercial vessel” means any vessel which is not a pleasure craft;

“passenger boat” means a pleasure craft which is carrying, or is available to carry, members of the general public for hire or reward;

“pleasure craft” means any vessel used for sport or recreation, whether hired or privately owned, and includes a houseboat.

Classification of waste is a different matter altogether. Paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 of the 2012 Controlled Waste regulations http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/811/pdfs/uksi_20120811_en.pdf  classifies the various types of waste by source. Waste from a private boat is classified as ‘household waste’ – collected and disposed of at no cost to the producer. Waste from a hire boat used for self-catering accommodation is classified as commercial waste – collected and disposed of at a cost to the producer and collector. Norfolk County Council say they can’t tell the  difference between the two, once it's been deposited in a boat waste bin, so charge the local authority for collection and disposal from all boat bins. The 2012 Regs are a direct result of an EU Directive which introduced the policy of 'the producer pays'. As things stand, nothing will change after Brexit.

That’s very roughly the situation.

[MauriceMynah]

Thank you Pally, Not what I wanted to hear but such is life.

I still think there must be some solution to this problem. The waste isn't new, and the money for it's disposal hasn't (significantly) changed,

[Wussername]

9 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Thank you Pally, Not what I wanted to hear but such is life.

I still think there must be some solution to this problem. The waste isn't new, and the money for it's disposal hasn't (significantly) changed,

But the money is no longer there. It is no longer there for so many, no longer there for so many worthy causes. No longer there for that which we took for granted only a few years ago.

Do you know what John. I have seen in Tesco's, for several months now, if not a couple of years, a bin. By the exit door. For people to donate food for the poor and disadvantaged of Norwich.

People who are so desperate that they have to rely on the charity of others for such basic requirements.

I never thought that in my life time I would ever see such a public demonstration of help in my city.

There is little or no money left to pay for the disposal of waste by the local authorities for boat waste. People who enjoy the pleasure of boating must now come to terms with the realisation that they, be it hirers or private owners have to pay for disposal. A concept which many deprived people find difficulty in accepting that they have up until now accepted as their responsibility.

Andrew

[BroadAmbition]

If our respective governments did not send so much foreign aid to countries that have their own space programme (To highlight just one example) then maybe foodbanks and homeless wouldn't be so prevalent

Griff

[Hylander]

6 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

If our respective governments did not send so much foreign aid to countries that have their own space programme (To highlight just one example) then maybe foodbanks and homeless wouldn't be so prevalent

Griff

Yep ,  like it or lump it - charity begins at home and always will do,  trouble is those who hold the purse strings and so busy sitting on the fence they forget about our own folk who are really struggling.     

[MauriceMynah]

Hmmm, yes,,, errm…   Hello thin ice, here I come!

This is political, but not party political so as such I believe allowable. Government in this country (of any party) receives an absolute fortune every year. What it chooses to spend it on has always been thought a tricky subject. Defence? NHS? Social services? the list goes on.... and on.

I understand that there is an argument in favour of overseas aid (though I don't remember what it is) but what I do believe s that if Brexit saved us x billions a year, and if overseas aid were to stop, and if government spent each and every penny as if it were their own, we would not be one iota better off. There would still be food banks or the need for them. Remember your parents, remember how they had to be careful to make ends meet. Nothing changes, nothing ever will... nothing ever can. 

 

[SwanR]

I was thinking about whether the situation with regard to boat waste could be likened to any other leisure industry. With holiday camps and caravan sites, the owners pay for the collection of waste. That's the case at the site where we have our caravan. So is that what happens also at marinas where owners have their permanent moorings? Not that you could necessarily be out on your boat for an extended time and keep all waste for disposing of back at base, I understand that.

As for facilities at public moorings, one could argue that this is the same as any resort where daytrippers come, spend their money in the local economy, and leave their rubbish behind at the end of the day, handled therefore by local rubbish collection?

It's a shame the same commonsense can't be applied. If you want to attract visitors you have to provide facilities for them.

[BroadAmbition]

It's a shame the same common sense can't be applied. If you want to attract visitors you have to provide facilities for them.

And that is the nail being hit firmly and squarely on the head.

We all of us know, that is hirers, privateers, anglers, twitchers, canoodlists, cyclists - the whole lot - about the need for basic facilities and applying common sense.  I find it infuriating that the powers that be who are 'In control' (Really?) cannot or refuse to apply common sense and get it sorted out.  It ain't rocket science, and nowhere near the levels of debate required for Brexit, its just a few refuse points around the system that require managing.  For goodness sake.

God help the guests if they ever had to organising a party in a brewery

Griff

[Hylander]

29 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

God help the guests if they ever had to organising a party in a brewery

Griff

If they did it would be a question of bring your own booze because it would be beyond them to organise a decent bar.

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, Hylander said:

If they did it would be a question of bring your own booze because it would be beyond them to organise a decent bar.

And then take your bottles and cans away afterwards! 

[marshman]

Of course the whole thing is easily sorted - put up tolls to cover rubbish collection from all 24 hour moorings!

BUT for what its worth, I still think the councils should do it. I am sure if everyone agreed to the aforementioned, they would appear. However I think if that does happen, others would still think of more costs and  issues to dump on boaters - don't even think about or else others will think of something else too!!

[SwanR]

When we hired from NBD (or Faircraft Loynes!) they put a bin on the boat with two halves, one for recycling. It did take up quite a bit of room and we kept shuffling the bin around, but it did encourage us to keep as much as we could for recycling which we then put in the appropriate waste disposal bin in the yard when we went back. 

[grendel]

when we hired the jewels we replaced the small 15 litre bin with a bigger 50 litre one from lathams, and we were emptying that daily.

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

when we hired the jewels we replaced the small 15 litre bin with a bigger 50 litre one from lathams, and we were emptying that daily.

Shouldn’t you recycle bottles and cans? 

[grendel]

we did.

[rightsaidfred]

While I understand the thinking behind a lot of answers the most obvious point behind all cuts to services including rubbish collection seems to get missed and that is that most local authorities of all persuasions are constantly cutting high visibility services to hammer the government of the day for lack of funding instead of cutting back on unnecessary  spending and their own projects, it is not just boat rubbish that is involved, in many areas household collections have also been reduced to unacceptable levels to the point where the majority of fly tipping is household waste.

Closer to home many say the same about an authority we are all familiar with cutting back on our basic needs while pursuing other objectives.

Fred

[marshman]

So Fred , what other services are being reduced as you suggest?? Given the financial constraints that the BA have had, I think they have managed pretty well - or clearly you disagree??

[Paladin]

10 minutes ago, marshman said:

So Fred , what other services are being reduced as you suggest?? Given the financial constraints that the BA have had, I think they have managed pretty well - or clearly you disagree??

marshman, could you just wait for a few minutes, while JennyMorgan hauls his aching body back on his soap box

How about halving the length of moorings at Hoveton Viaduct, just for starters?

If manipulating overhead charges so that tolls income supports successive cuts in the government grant is a measure of success, then, yes, they've done pretty well indeed. (Sorry, that's anecdotal. I'm not an accountant, so I can't produce the figures, but the proportion of navigation/NP has been swung in favour of NP).

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

So Fred , what other services are being reduced as you suggest?? Given the financial constraints that the BA have had, I think they have managed pretty well - or clearly you disagree??

Where would you like me to start, the reduction in the number of Rangers, the loss of moorings or maybe the loss of information offices at Ranworth and Potter Heigham while money has been wasted on administration and the NP project and now Acle just for starters.

Fred

[Vaughan]

Dredging.

[Poppy]

How many who are (quite properly) complaining, voted for 'austerity' ?

[MauriceMynah]

22 minutes ago, Poppy said:

How many who are (quite properly) complaining, voted for 'austerity' ?

If, as has been suggested,  the cuts selected by these organisations are done so to highlight political objections, then "who voted for austerity" is quite irrelevant.

The basic problem is simple, The people who decide who should be "cut" are in themselves the ones who should go. Instead they enlarge their own departments as an indication of how successful they have been in saving money.

This was wonderfully illustrated in a couple of episodes of "Yes Minister", something I would make compulsory viewing to many people.

[Vaughan]

 

The root cause of the problem can be seen in the pages above!

Here we see 63 Hoseasons boatyards in 1971 and 40 Blakes yards in 1978. The Blakes pages show the facilities and services which were available at each yard. There is no symbol for rubbish bins, as this was taken for granted! It was very rare that a boat from a different agency ever got charged for overnight moorings.

Hoseasons had more member yards but Blakes tended to have the bigger ones such as Jack Powles, Richardsons and Woods, so the number of boats offered was more or less the same.

If you wonder why there seems to be a lack of free moorings and facilities such as bins, water and pumpouts these days, just look up at that lot, who are no longer there! And even in those days, we were all paying commercial rates for the emptying of our bins although the rubbish itself was domestic waste from people on holiday.

OK - it is up the councils to provide the bins but if the BA seriously suggest that they are there to promote tourism in the fairyland of a National Park, then they must address this problem as a priority!

They actively encouraged the closure of all these small family businesses during the big recession of the 1980s and so it is now up to them. If they really want to promote Broads tourism, then they must take steps to provide the facilities.