Broads Toll 2019

[Maxwellian]

This is interesting to read. The same scenario is happening everywhere. There was a trend to put out to bid lots of contracts by consecutive Governments. Segregate off parts of the NHS into trusts for example. each one bids and usually underestimates the cost of providing the contracted services which is also usually has the requirements badly captured. In doing so the then cut services where ever possible whilst maintaining those that are officially metricated and monitored. The spiral then continues the next time the contract is up for rebidding. The outcome is the focus on clearing people off the waiting list that is monitored and onto another that is not or even just taken off completely with a review in so many months.

Staff that joined the NHS to treat people are totally disillusioned, nurses do not get any time to spend with patients other than the bare minimum. 

 

[marshman]

MM - I agree totally on the bins issue! Why should the BA even be expected to be directly involved? It is not their statutory responsibility. Whats even more infuriating is that in most villages where there are facilities, these are abused by locals and others who tip into these bins, rubbish they cannot get rid of! Perhaps reduce costs at the waste stations to stop this "fly tipping" - the councils cannot see the connection. Deliberately!

In a way, the call for more moorings can only be helped if landowners would provide more land to lease without seeing it as another opportunity to line their pockets and without using imaginery issues to try and "lever" the BA over other issues they see as associated. Thurne Mouth is a classic case in point!!!

Of course the BA could buy land and not lease it, but that might affect the tolls - just a bit!!

[Islander]

Morning all, back for a few mins. I have a bathroom (boat) to refit. New bulkhead and floor.

1 hour ago, marshman said:

Whats even more infuriating is that in most villages where there are facilities, these are abused by locals and others who tip into these bins, rubbish they cannot get rid of! Perhaps reduce costs at the waste stations to stop this "fly tipping" - the councils cannot see the connection. Deliberately!

It's then these very villagers that complain about the piles of rubbish left by the bins.

I'm so glad I mentioned bins (not), maybe I should have said canoe slips and fishing platforms 

OK, I'm sure we all know we've flog the bins one to death in an older thread and it's the councils responsibility but I do feel that if the BA are going to promote tourism then they need to also put pressure on those responsible to get something done. 

Meanwhile back at the lack of moorings and all the extra power posts we need to run our vacuum cleaners and gel coat polishers 

Colin

[Islander]

Marshy, I forgot to add it wasn't the BA's remit to become a National Park but if they want to play that game they can have the whole job and not just pick the bits they want.

Colin

I'm of working, you'll have to play amongst yourselves.

[Vaughan]

Well said Colin.  

 

[oldgregg]

I am getting into something I only half understand here, but there is a big difference between a charging point specifically for charging pure electric boats, and a simple 32A shore power point that can charge your domestic batteries and boil a kettle :

 

I took this photo last year, of charging points for electric cars being installed at Fleet services on the M3. The row of white cabinets behind are there to provide the power necessary and I suppose they amount to a sub-station in their own right.

 

Just look at the figures on that plaque. Work out the kilowatts for yourselves!

I admit these are fast charging points rather than overnight ones but the power required will still be enormous. This is the sort of thing we will need if pure electric propulsion hire boats ever come to the Broads. Is this what we want to see on the Maltsters Quay at Ranworth? And can we imagine the scramble which will ensue when 6 electric boats all arrive to hook into only 3 charging points, and those mooring places have already been taken by other boats who refuse to move?

I think we'll see a Broads cruiser with the powertrain from a salvaged electric car before too long, but the battery technology has to come a bit further before it's ready to put into hire.

 

Those Tesla fast chargers are designed to give you a top-up in around 20 minutes hence the huge current draw - But a Broads cruiser could be plugged in for 12+ hours overnight so wouldn't be pulling that sort of ampage.

 

A top-spec Tesla car has around 780hp, and a 100kwh battery that gives circa 250-320 mile range.

 

I've tried to do the maths to work out what that would equate to in a boat with a 100hp motor, fridge, bilge pump, lights, toilets etc but failed miserably as there are so many variables.

 

I suspect a couple of Tesla batteries in an RC45 might do quite nicely but they're about £40K a piece without the control systems, and there are quite a few engineering challenges involved in doing it.

 

 

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

 

 

 

[Poppy]

If people want ( no, they don't need ) such fripperies as hair straighteners etc, is it so wrong that they are required to pay extra for the privilege - for that's what it is ?

And since the vast majority of those demanding these extras to what , as another has said elsewhere is "is effectively camping afloat" are hirers, should not the Hire boat toll reflect these costs ?

I would include of course any private craft fitted with mains power in this - and they could easily be identified by a declairation at first , followed by a note at the next BSS inspection.

[marshman]

Those not wanting street lights could put a note on the gate, those not wanting cycle lanes in Norwich could send a polite notice to Norwich City Council, those watching only ITV on a standard tv could inform the TV licence Office but as I hinted earlier, thats what life is about - you do not actually have a choice in it and you might as well make the most of it and move on!!

[Poppy]

4 minutes ago, marshman said:

Those not wanting street lights could put a note on the gate, those not wanting cycle lanes in Norwich could send a polite notice to Norwich City Council, those watching only ITV on a standard tv could inform the TV licence Office but as I hinted earlier, thats what life is about - you do not actually have a choice in it and you might as well make the most of it and move on!!

Poor analogy Marshy.  I see the demand for mains points akin to those who move here from 'taarn' and clamour for street lights.  Don't even start on cycle lanes - they would be vaguely OK if cyclists were to use them.....

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, oldgregg said:

I've tried to do the maths to work out what that would equate to in a boat with a 100hp motor, fridge, bilge pump, lights, toilets etc but failed miserably as there are so many variables.

Actually it is easier than it seems. It all boils down to WATTS.

All appliances, even on DC are rated in watts. So a 12 volt fridge using 60 watts will take 5 amps of power. In one hour's running it will take 5 amp/hours off the battery. The fridge is on a thermostat, so it is not running all the time. Electrolux will tell you that their fridges use around 45 A/H in a 24 hour period. That means that you need the capacity of a 100 A/H battery on board, just to run the fridge, as you should not take a domestic battery below 50% of its charge.

You can do this same calculation for every appliance, or light bulb, on the boat and I can tell you that an 8 berth hire boat with 2 electric toilets, 160 litre fridge, water pump, Webasto heating, 12v hair driers, lighting, etc., will use around 220 A/H per day including engine starting. This does not include the TV (50 A/H) and certainly not a microwave.

This means you will need a bank of at least 4 X 110 A/H domestic batteries plus a starter battery, to supply this capacity. To re-charge this lot, in about 4 hours cruising, you need 2 X 110 Amp alternators running through an "intelligent" charge splitter. And I am still talking about a fairly basic hire boat, in terms of electrics. If you are not doing at least 4 hours running in the day then you need to plug in shore power for the night and your boat will need to have a battery charger of at least 40 amps capacity.

As to the electric motor :

The Nanni 4220 is a 47HP engine and this is also expressed in kilowatts. It is rated at a shaft horsepower of 35KW at 2800RPM which comes down to 26KW at 1900 RPM. So let's say it will be using 20KW at an average speed of 5MPH.

An electric motor will need to provide the same amount of shaft horsepower, so 4 hours cruising per day will consume at least 80KW/hours of battery capacity and it may be half as much again, in actual practice.

The hire boat business has been working on these figures for at least the last 15 years but to my knowledge, we haven't come up with a practical solution yet!

 

[vanessan]

Why is it so difficult for some to see that there are folk who like to use an electric post from time to time and for very different reasons. They don’t need to, they just like to. Everybody has a choice, if you don’t want to use one, then don’t. 

I do wonder if the BA is trying to get ahead of the game. Where cars are concerned, I reckon people are still wary of purchasing an electric vehicle because of the lack of charging points at present - chicken and egg situation. If/when the sale of electric/hybrid boats picks up, the infrastructure will already be there. Forward thinking. 

[oldgregg]

18 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Actually it is easier than it seems. It all boils down to WATTS.

All appliances, even on DC are rated in watts. So a 12 volt fridge using 60 watts will take 5 amps of power. In one hour's running it will take 5 amp/hours off the battery. The fridge is on a thermostat, so it is not running all the time. Electrolux will tell you that their fridges use around 45 A/H in a 24 hour period. That means that you need the capacity of a 100 A/H battery on board, just to run the fridge, as you should not take a domestic battery below 50% of its charge.

You can do this same calculation for every appliance, or light bulb, on the boat and I can tell you that an 8 berth hire boat with 2 electric toilets, 160 litre fridge, water pump, Webasto heating, 12v hair driers, lighting, etc., will use around 220 A/H per day including engine starting. This does not include the TV (50 A/H) and certainly not a microwave.

This means you will need a bank of at least 4 X 110 A/H domestic batteries plus a starter battery, to supply this capacity. To re-charge this lot, in about 4 hours cruising, you need 2 X 110 Amp alternators running through an "intelligent" charge splitter. And I am still talking about a fairly basic hire boat, in terms of electrics. If you are not doing at least 4 hours running in the day then you need to plug in shore power for the night and your boat will need to have a battery charger of at least 40 amps capacity.

As to the electric motor :

The Nanni 4220 is a 47HP engine and this is also expressed in kilowatts. It is rated at a shaft horsepower of 35KW at 2800RPM which comes down to 26KW at 1900 RPM. So let's say it will be using 20KW at an average speed of 5MPH.

An electric motor will need to provide the same amount of shaft horsepower, so 4 hours cruising per day will consume at least 80KW/hours of battery capacity and it may be half as much again, in actual practice.

The hire boat business has been working on these figures for at least the last 15 years but to my knowledge, we haven't come up with a practical solution yet!

 

Exactly.

So a pair of batteries rated at 100KWh / 375V would probably be enough. But not when they're £40K each.

[Poppy]

17 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Why is it so difficult for some to see that there are folk who like to use an electric post from time to time and for very different reasons. They don’t need to, they just like to. Everybody has a choice, if you don’t want to use one, then don’t. 

 

 I can see that.  But why is it so difficult for some to see that if they wish for that provision to be made, they should pay for it ?

[Vaughan]

27 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

Exactly.

So a pair of batteries rated at 100KWh / 375V would probably be enough. But not when they're £40K each.

And if they go flat, you can't just send Richo's mechanic out in the van on a Sunday morning to change them. The only solution would be to tow the boat back into a boatyard, equipped with a suitable charger.

[rightsaidfred]

25 minutes ago, Poppy said:

 I can see that.  But why is it so difficult for some to see that if they wish for that provision to be made, they should pay for it ?

So why then as one of those who could but  no longer can get above Potter  but pay one of the highest  tolls help to cover the cost of dredging for those that sail on Hickling, using your mindset maybe its time they payed a  surcharge to cover that part of the system the majoriity cant use.

Fred

[vanessan]

33 minutes ago, Poppy said:

 I can see that.  But why is it so difficult for some to see that if they wish for that provision to be made, they should pay for it ?

As some have said, there are many situations like this in life.

For example:

2 hours ago, marshman said:

Those not wanting street lights could put a note on the gate, those not wanting cycle lanes in Norwich could send a polite notice to Norwich City Council, those watching only ITV on a standard tv could inform the TV licence Office but as I hinted earlier, thats what life is about - you do not actually have a choice in it and you might as well make the most of it and move on!!

Earlier someone mentioned demasting pontoons. I shall never use one but my tolls helps pay for them. Do I care? Not one jot. 

 

2 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

So why then as one of those who could but  no longer can get above Potter  but pay one of the highest  tolls help to cover the cost of dredging for those that sail on Hickling, using your mindset maybe its time they payed a  surcharge to cover that part of the system the majoriity cant use.

Fred

That was something else going through my mind but Fred got there first!

[oldgregg]

20 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

And if they go flat, you can't just send Richo's mechanic out in the van on a Sunday morning to change them. The only solution would be to tow the boat back into a boatyard, equipped with a suitable charger.

Or the Ricko's mechanic would just bring a genset with him...

That's assuming there wasn't one fitted.

[Vaughan]

1 minute ago, oldgregg said:

Or he'd just bring a genset with him...

Not on a van - that would need a truck!

We also have to think about battery life. A new luxury hire boat must expect to do at least 23 weeks on hire, or it is not making money.  That is around 160 nights, or "deep cycles" of the batteries. They are not going to last many years at that rate.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

 I can see that.  But why is it so difficult for some to see that if they wish for that provision to be made, they should pay for it ?

So why then as one of those who could but  no longer can get above Potter  but pay one of the highest  tolls help to cover the cost of dredging for those that sail on Hickling, using your mindset maybe its time they payed a  surcharge to cover that part of the system the majoriity cant use.

Fred

[rightsaidfred]

Whats happened to reality anything is possible  on a new build  nobody is going to spend a fortuune upgrading old boats that still earn their keep.

Fred

[PCL023]

What about classic river toll for boats over a certain vintage, like we see with classic cars? Could be a discount structure in place, we all like to see them on the water. 

Cheers 

Paul 

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

So why then as one of those who could but  no longer can get above Potter  but pay one of the highest  tolls help to cover the cost of dredging for those that sail on Hickling, using your mindset maybe its time they payed a  surcharge to cover that part of the system the majoriity cant use.

Fred

Now that really is another 'choice'. Choose a boat that will go under the bridge....

And I think you'll find the dredging 'up there' is more about the wildlife, the RSPB and the Norfolk Wildlife Trust.

[vanessan]

7 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Now that really is another 'choice'. Choose a boat that will go under the bridge....

And I think you'll find the dredging 'up there' is more about the wildlife, the RSPB and the Norfolk Wildlife Trust.

What about those boats that were built to go under Potter bridge but no longer can? I think there may be one or two around.

[rightsaidfred]

46 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Now that really is another 'choice'. Choose a boat that will go under the bridge....

And I think you'll find the dredging 'up there' is more about the wildlife, the RSPB and the Norfolk Wildlife Trust.

But thats the point when I bought my boat like many others it did go and had been  under the Bridge regularly  I no longer have  the choice but still contribute thats what being of part of society means we are either all in it together or only contribute to our own selfish needs.

Fred

[rightsaidfred]

I forgot to say I think you will find the RSPB and Natural England have made dredging the Upper Thurne system as difficult as possible

Fred