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Poppy

Broads Toll 2019

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Nobody has mentioned Solar panels these extend the charging regram  by 15 hours in summer 6= 250 w panels could give you 1500 amps in one day.there are all electric canal boats which manage very well, the downside is that broads boats don't have the roof space that canal boats have for the panels, but as the days draw in there are less boats sailing so there is less demand for electric posts to recharge overnight,. If and when i commision a new boat i will definitely  go for electric propulsion, the new brushless motors are very quiet and economical, i will however have a small geny as back up. Panda have now bought out a 12 volt 6kw geny which means you don't need a large battery charger which was the case when only 240v genys where available.on  my last boat i had a 12v geny, but i had to build it myself as there were no 12v genys available at that time, this meant i could only manage 120 amps max output, none the less i was self sufficient on one to one and half hours charging per day when moored up for long periods, solar would now cover this subject to available roof space. John

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To those who think electricity posts are surplus to their needs, how many nights aboard do you spend?

We use our boat as 2 weeks home 2 weeks on the boat March to October. A round trip of 560 miles.

Some comforts are nice, TV, Microwave etc.

Or do you think the Broads should only available to those that can go home at night and sleep in their own bed?

The supply of electricity can be looked upon as a luxury but then again, depth for a deep keel is also a luxury on rivers.

Day sailors benefit from the tolls paid by those that like a bit of luxury, otherwise why keep the waterways open if the majority would not be there without them thus not paying any tolls.

Without visitors spending money how are all the pubs and attractions going to survive?

I know we do not spend as much in the local hostelries as we did when hiring.

We use the engine on average 120 hours per year and that is not idling for warm water. Thus annoying everyone else on the moorings.

paul

 

 

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This thread reminds me of going out for an Indian with people from work you don't usually socialise with.

 

When it comes time to pay you hear:

 

"But I didn't have a starter"

"I didn't have Naan"

"I only drank lemonade"

 

All the time you are  thinking "Just chuck £20 each in and let's get down the pub"

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7 minutes ago, SteveDuk said:

All the time you are  thinking "Just chuck £20 each in and let's get down the pub"

I'd be wondering how I ended up in an Indian whilst the pub was open in the first place :default_biggrin:

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1 minute ago, Jayfire said:

I'd be wondering how I ended up in an Indian whilst the pub was open the first place :default_biggrin:

You need to know the right pubs ;)

 

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The Tolls issue comes up each season because invariable it goes up.  Sometimes just a little, other times rather a lot. Either way people will complain about this because it means more of their hard earned being spent for what they may consider very little in return.  Sure you get to permission to use the waterways but what about if you do not go out very much, or you never need to use an Electric Point, or when you do go out you only travel a short way and more often than not moor away from a Broads Authority mooring....The list goes on.

I personally see the Toll as the smallest consideration in owning  a boat - it could be a little more fair in the way it is managed, such as partial refunds if you sold your boat, or transferring a Toll from one boat to another and only paying more if the new boat was larger but equally if downsizing being able to have a refund for the unused amount. This all of course won't happen because in order to manage it needs investment in either more I.T and software to do much of the management for the Broads Authority or in the alternative more people to do the calculating themselves. It all means administrative cost increases so that will never be a goer.

My take on things is the Toll is pretty fair. For being able to go where I wish, when I wish and moor at a bunch of places along the way and pay no extra. There are plenty more issues such as the several thousand pounds a year one spends for 13ft of quay and two posts to keep the boat, or the money one can spend in maintaining and improving their boat either themselves or through professional boatyards.  But it is always the Toll's that get the most moans and the Broads Authority who get the most complaints about miss management and how they should do this or that and if they did it would be a lot better - intriguingly too, it is one of the few organisations one can be negative about on here and berate without issue. 

So far as the 'Charging Posts' go this singularly by biggest pet hate.  What a good idea it was when the first posts were planned and installed and the Broads Authority championed such along with local boat builders who could use a growing planned network to support electric boating. Herbert Woods produced Quiet Light - an all electric 32 foot four berth boat that was since converted to diesel and since also sold from their fleet.  Colin Facey also had a small two berth aft cockpit electric boat for hire but other than the odd electric launch this, so far as electric boating to the masses (hire fleets) was all that happened. So why did it stall? Where did it all go wrong?

Simple: Why on earth was it deemed a good idea to put in standard Marina Electric Pedestals with two 16A and one 32A sockets on them? Anyone could and soon did begin plugging in 'caravan hook up' leads to these posts and before too long professional shore power installs were being put in on both private and hire boats. if you had an electric boat, with limited range and outdated Lead Acid batteries that could neither maintain a high amperage discharge nor accept a hire amperage re-charge  the idea was dead in the water and what did the Broads Authority do? Nothing.

They could have converted the 32Amp socket into a proprietary charging socket and since the leads to plug into these cost several hundred pounds it would do a great deal to put off the average boater who just wanted to run the fan heater or boil a kettle buying one.  There could be incentives to electric boat owners - even hire boats that might run on batteries - free electric to re-charge and run the amenities on board but there never was any joined up thinking - even now in London, Boroughs are having to spend great sums and take big planning steps to introduce many many more charging points in streets with their own bay's so that drivers of these vehicles can plug in.

Since the posts on the Broads are not used for electric boat re-charging I wish the Broads Authority would stop pretending they are and ditch 'Charging Points' and just call them what they are 'Electric Posts'. Or maybe I am missing something and referring to them as a Charging Point gives them some kind of financial help, tax cut, or just helps in other areas. Electric Boating could take off if there was provisions at moorings for such, and in boatyards but I cannot see it being so. It would need so many different people coming together with a single plan and a bunch of cash to get things off the ground, so until that happens lets not kid ourselves these electric points are just going to be used for those who want to plug to run a heater or make a coffee without burning some gas.

One thing that could do so much more is have contactless payment taken at them - tap your card, deduct a £1.00 and away you go - the tech exists off the shelf - or another idea pre-paid cards with a face value of £5.00.

 

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Robin is right again - well almost right in the whole of his reply! Like it or not, the toll is as he suggests, a good deal.

It is the second half of his reply where he goes a little awry - or I think he does!

As he has demonstrated the whole idea of posts has really got lost in the wash a bit - what they are not really intended for is the whole charging issue. Yes that was the intention but I think at the time, they were only "playing" with the idea and perhaps pandering to some "green" motives - the technology just id not exist then to take it very seriously.

At the same time, many boats even then had the ability to "trickle" charge their boats on their own moorings, so it was decided to provide these facilities away from home - no one then even dreamt really about heating, and cooking from them alone, or even supplementing these facilities from them.

And they have in a way now been a victim of their limited success in that the consumer is now demanding more - and in most cases, they cannot now do that realistically. Many of the BA 24hr moorings are a bit remote and you can see the costs of getting power to the Acle Bridge moorings - and thats only a dribble in the whole context of full electric boating.

So out of general interest what exactly do you want the BA to do now? Continue to try and hook up as many moorings as they can to a dribble or go the full hog as Robin describes some of the London Boroughs are having to do to cope with demand ?

Beyond this you can see just how stupid the Government are in their reaction to diesel cars - typical of authority to react in the way they have as it appears a short time fix which when you look further, will prove to be impossible to provide a workable solution - bit like Dutch boys and their fingers!!!!!!

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I have long wondered why the Authority feels duty bound in offering these posts. I can understand marina operators doing so but not the BA. There is no logical driver behind this one as far as the BA is concerned. If private enterprise wants to offer it as a service then great. As it is the BA has created an animal where people rush to their boats at the weekend/Friday evening where they then rush to their favoured electric pylon where they then moor up and stay for their allotted 24 hours thus preventing it's use by anyone else during that time-span. That was never the intention behind the original installation!   

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Just now, JennyMorgan said:

I have long wondered why the Authority feels duty bound in offering these posts. I can understand marina operators doing so but not the BA. There is no logical driver behind this one as far as the BA is concerned. If private enterprise wants to offer it as a service then great. As it is the BA has created an animal where people rush to their boats at the weekend/Friday evening where they then rush to their favoured electric pylon where they then moor up and stay for their allotted 24 hours thus preventing it's use by anyone else during that time-span. That was never the intention behind the original installation!   

Could the Hire Boat Federation be 'having a word '?

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The provision of posts reduces the need for static engine running at moorings this is a benefit for all river users. John

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16 minutes ago, annv said:

The provision of posts reduces the need for static engine running at moorings this is a benefit for all river users. John

I agree with that, there is nothing more annoying and antisocial and by the way bloody right dangerous than being moored close to a boat running its engine for hours on end especially with the wind blowing fumes into your boat, So for that reason alone I guess the electricity posts in my book anyway is a good thing :-)

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Annoying?  Yes.

Antisocial? Yes, that too

Dangerous? No, not really. The amount of CO produced by a diesel engine is significantly less than a petrol engine, but the provision of leccy posts in mooring hotspots will help reduce the static engine running, which is good for the first two reasons alone.

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5 hours ago, LondonRascal said:

 - even now in London, Boroughs are having to spend great sums and take big planning steps to introduce many many more charging points in streets with their own bay's so that drivers of these vehicles can plug in.

Quite correct and in my borough I have only ever seen one car plugged into any of the numerous points allocated, as far as all electric boats go the Ferry Marina ones have generators that kick in when the batteries reach a certain level hardly ecologically friendly, we no longer use gas mantels  this is the 21st century people use electricity for all manner of things its life.

Fred

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Fred a generator uses less fuel and has less pollution for the same sized engine as its designed to run at a constant speed unlike a ordinary engine that has to tick over( This has a richer mixture to remain stable) then run at a higher speed range which requires more fuel, the hybrid generators run a max output for shorter periods, this makes for less fuel,  less pollution,  less noise for shorter periods, which must be better for all. Electricity at post is also greener and cheaper and quieter than electric produced from a boat engine.   John

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John (Annv)

Your post is interesting but is it accurate? I ask as it goes against one or two things I have believed in the past.

I have always thought that if you turn fuel into electricity, there was a loss. If you then store that electricity, there was another loss, and finally turning that electricity back into motion there was yet another loss. These stages were less efficient than turning the fuel directly into the motive force, thus using more fuel and being more polluting.

I would add to that, to transmit electricity from one place to another by cable (ie national grid) was also responsible for a massive loss thereby having the minus of producing greater levels of pollutants but the plus of having them created away from where you were at the time!

As I say, that is as I have always believed the situation. I stand to be corrected. 

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12 hours ago, annv said:

Fred a generator uses less fuel and has less pollution for the same sized engine as its designed to run at a constant speed unlike a ordinary engine that has to tick over( This has a richer mixture to remain stable) then run at a higher speed range which requires more fuel, the hybrid generators run a max output for shorter periods, this makes for less fuel,  less pollution,  less noise for shorter periods, which must be better for all. Electricity at post is also greener and cheaper and quieter than electric produced from a boat engine.   John

John, While that may be the case it doesn't stop the disturbance caused in the early hours when it decides to kick in because it has sensed a battery drop, this happened when I was moored next to Whispering Emblem and on speaking to the hirers the following morning it had been annoying them all week, he also thought this happened once the batteries dropped below 60% on the gauge, while I cant verify that it doesn't sound very efficient to me especially once batteries start to deteriorate and loose their holding power.

Fred

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Just to clear something up, please.

The existing shore power posts on the Broads cannot have been installed with the idea of re-charging electric propulsion boats as they are the wrong type and not powerful enough. Electric boats are charged on DC, at a high voltage, just like electric cars. This needs a much heavier shore installation than we have at the moment.

I believe that you cannot fully enjoy a boating holiday unless your boat is autonomous - so that it can charge its own batteries in a days running. You only have "half" a boating holiday if you have to confine yourself to finding an overnight mooring with a shore power point.

All the hire boats I have ever run - and at one time there were more than 400 of them - have always been autonomous. On the other hand, about 15 years ago, I had them all fitted with a shore power connection , as several towns were installing power points on the canal banks and it was convenient (but not essential) to plug in and give the batteries a bit more charge. Nowadays the other companies have followed and all hire boats on French canals now have a shore power lead to charge batteries. They don't have pump out toilets, but at least they have shore power! All the towns will supply this power at a low amperage, so that people living on barges don't try to run their central heating off them.

In my opinion an electric powered boat with a generator is not an electric boat : it is a hybrid which is causing the same particulate pollution of the water as any other water-cooled marine diesel. 

So if the BA want to provide an extra service by installing a few more power points on their moorings that is fine. It will certainly help to stop people running their engines on moorings. On the other hand I think the running of pure electric hire cruisers, which need a charge every night, is a long way off.

By the way there was a company which invested in a couple of new 4 berth electric cruisers, built by Haines, on the Canal du Midi. The experiment did not work.

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Can't speak for boats, but most plug-in cars have an onboard charger that accepts a normal household input, to charge up slowly overnight. The rapid DC chargers do charge at 300 volts DC, but will kill the batteries if used regularly.

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You are all correct in a way No boat is pollution free some a lot less than others, yes all electric costs but if its produced elsewhere ie( not in my back garden), by a huge generator Magnox/Nuclear it's better for the broads and if hydro produced greener still, But a large generator  produces more power cheaper,less pollution less fuel per watt fuel/ than a boat generator and a alternator costs more than a separate generator will,  certainly a hybrid system by itself may not be suitable for hire boats perhaps they should have a timer fitted but they still use less diesel  fuel per mile than straight diesel powered boats and hire wise they don't have to have a gas safty check each year, and no gas cooker that is used for free heating, the gas not being directly charged for. And if solar panels are fitted the diesel used reduces further, and if plugged in to posts cost comes down further and less noise and pollution and if ion batteries are used are much more cost effective and last a great deal longer than any others. They do have a weight and maintenance penalty but a auto water topper uper lowers/reduces this, and if  a solar panel is fitted, which produces 24/7 even on dull days reduces fuel over all, there again you do need roof space and not attractive to look at. If i build another boat i will definitely go for electric drive, less maintenance, more control and  no noise along wth free solar power, but still use gas for cooking as i wouldnt want the geny to start up willy nilly, a low voltage light yes , hirers cant/dont want this complexity so they get the full auto system, good for the yards but not for other boats, if they were to plug in it would stop this but some hires wouldn't want the bother. Any battery can be charged from a domestic point 13 amps  16 amps post sockit it just takes longer, ok for overnight but not for pit stops of 1/2 hour, this is why petrol garages have these massive chargers for electric cars, what they don't tell the users is that they reduce the life of the battery , out of sight out of mind, all batteries will have a longer life if charged at the 10amp rate and not left discharged, a battery maintainer  should be fitted to all batteries that are left for more than 4 weeks. John

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Hi Maurice Yes you are correct BUT if said power was produced at a very low cost it is still cheaper overall, and if when we use it,  at a the mooring there is  no noise or fumes from a engine,    solar would achieve the same but does not work at night, wind only if it's blowing strongly.  all power from the grid is better overall but unless hydro, has some down side to it somewhere. John

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19 minutes ago, annv said:

and if  a solar panel is fitted, which produces 24/7 even on dull days

Sorry but NO !!!

20 minutes ago, annv said:

but if its produced elsewhere ie( not in my back garden), by a huge generator Magnox/Nuclear it's better for the broads

If climate change happens it will be world wide, and contrary to popular belief, the broads are NOT literally out of this world.

"But a large generator  produces more power cheaper, less pollution less fuel per watt fuel/ than a boat generator"

Sorry but I would like/want to see evidence of that.

There were so many other points in that post I found either wrong or at best questionable  the cost of a generator being less than the cost of an alternator for example that you put in another reply before I'd finished typing this one.

But, in short I do not agree with you.  :)  Hey ho,. such is life's rich tapestry

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21 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

As it is the BA has created an animal where people rush to their boats at the weekend/Friday evening where they then rush to their favoured electric pylon where they then moor up and stay for their allotted 24 hours 

Yes, this does happen a lot but there are also those who take advantage of them intermittently and considerately. Whatever, as long as those you mention act within the rules, what does it matter? It’s how they prefer to use their boats. 

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2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

 

Just to clear something up, please.

The existing shore power posts on the Broads cannot have been installed with the idea of re-charging electric propulsion boats as they are the wrong type and not powerful enough. Electric boats are charged on DC, at a high voltage, just like electric cars. This needs a much heavier shore installation than we have at the moment.

 

Weren’t they specifically for electric day boats? Would that make a difference?

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Don't want to disagree with Vaughan but my understanding was that they were intended to charge batteries for cruising - they were meant to be for overnight charging and I believe one or two boats did try this approach. I don't think that fast charging as we now understand it had even been invented - certainly there were no Li batteries or any such fancy things as that but the good old lead acid type.

Lets take this one stage at a time - when were the first posts installed then?

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Mains power is used to run a battery charger, that converts 240 volts ac to 12/24 volts dc, how fast a battery is charged depends on the amount of power, 16 amps say and the size/output of charger a 20amp charger will take 10 times longer than a 200 amp charger will take for a given size battery, there are limits, a 200 amp charger wont charge a 100 amp battery in 1/2 a hour, it will charge a 1500 amp battery quicker than a 20amp one will but use the same amount of 240v  kwts of power, yes i know not exactly but near enough the same. a electric car doesn't have a large charger because of the weight/size penalty hench the large charger/transformers at the charging points at service stations that provide dc current, unlike boats that can accommodate a large charger so all they need is a electric supply from a  post at moorings to provide a 240v supply. no noise no pollution and cheaper per amp used/converted to 12/24 dc than using diesel/petrol fuel to do the same. John 

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